Batman is dead

[Mark Rand]

Joker and Harley blew Arkham Asylum two days before it happened. Once they realized that Barbara Gordon was Batgirl, they raided her place. They crippled her and discovered, in her computer, while Harley was looking for internet porn, that Bruce Wayne had supplied her equipment.

 

Wayne Manor was next. At the end, Alfred was dead, shot through the heart. Bruce and the Joker fell over 100 feet to their deaths on sub-level 6, and, thanks to Dick wielding one of Mr. Freeze's weapons, Harley was, literally, on ice.

 

Dick made sure that there was nothing in the computer linking him to Robin, then called the police. Within minutes, the police, and press, swarmed Wayne Manor and the Batcave. After all, it was the story of the century.

 

Since Dick was still a minor, the county took care of him and the police made sure he was placed in a safehouse.

 

Three weeks have passd. PRIMUS received permission to take over Wayne Manor and the Batcave. Intelligence Agent Beverly Martin is now Batgirl. She looks intense in costume and can handle the Batmobile, a tricked out Lamborghini Murcielago, skillfully. As expected, she has a small group of fellow agents, the PCs, and an equally small support staff with her.

 

Oh, Beverly isn't the team leader. One of the PCs is.

 

Any ideas?

[OctoberRaven]

Re: Batman is dead

 

I would have had Harley live, myself. Turn her from a lackey to a master villain out to kill Greyson in a twisted form of revenge.

 

Then again, Harley is my favorite member of Batman's RG, so there may be a bit of bias from my part.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

I would have had Harley live, myself. Turn her from a lackey to a master villain out to kill Greyson in a twisted form of revenge.

 

Then again, Harley is my favorite member of Batman's RG, so there may be a bit of bias from my part.

 

I made a slight error in typing. Dick froze Harley up to her neck. In this context, "putting her on ice" meant packaging her for the cooler.

[bwdemon]

Re: Batman is dead

 

It sounds like a "You're the supporting cast for my awesome NPC!" type of game. Make absolutely sure the players are interested in being in that position.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

It sounds like a "You're the supporting cast for my awesome NPC!" type of game. Make absolutely sure the players are interested in being in that position.

 

The PCs are also PRIMUS intelligence agents and have the same training and level of experience Beverly does. She was chosen to be Batgirl because she can handle a high-powered sports car better than the others.

 

The support staff, all PRIMUS employees, consists of a housekeeper, electronics, vehicle and computer experts, and a doctor and nurse.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

I might replace Batgirl as my NPC with a former CIA agent skilled in black bag jobs. If so, I'll have to come up with her heroic name. It might be Black Cat, but it won't be Catwoman. That's taken.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Unless Beverly Martin is a Player's Character, put her firmly in the background. Let the PCs have the spotlight (and try to live up to the Batman's Legacy). Let the PCs handle the Batmobile. Martin can be their superior, and be the chief of operations for the Batcave (and thereby be the person who determines whether or not the Batmobile should be used on a given mission.)

 

I'd frame the game in such a way as to illustrate that it takes a team of PRIMUS agents with all of the resources of the Batcave, and a full-time coordinating superior to accomplish what Bruce Wayne did with only Alfred, Barbara and Robin or years.

 

PRIMUS should also be sticking their bureaucratic noses in on a regular basis so no one agent gets too comfortable in the role of Batman. Indeed, I'd figure a PRIMUS type agency would be very keen on "transitioning out" the vigilante Batman persona in favor of a more controllable Special Cases Law Enforcement Unit. There's a good secondary conflict there as the troubles plaguing Gotham really can't be solved "by the book" and actually need a vigilante like the Batman. Senior Directors seldom see it that way.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Unless Beverly Martin is a Player's Character, put her firmly in the background. Let the PCs have the spotlight (and try to live up to the Batman's Legacy). Let the PCs handle the Batmobile. Martin can be their superior, and be the chief of operations for the Batcave (and thereby be the person who determines whether or not the Batmobile should be used on a given mission.)

 

I'd frame the game in such a way as to illustrate that it takes a team of PRIMUS agents with all of the resources of the Batcave, and a full-time coordinating superior to accomplish what Bruce Wayne did with only Alfred, Barbara and Robin or years.

 

PRIMUS should also be sticking their bureaucratic noses in on a regular basis so no one agent gets too comfortable in the role of Batman. Indeed, I'd figure a PRIMUS type agency would be very keen on "transitioning out" the vigilante Batman persona in favor of a more controllable Special Cases Law Enforcement Unit. There's a good secondary conflict there as the troubles plaguing Gotham really can't be solved "by the book" and actually need a vigilante like the Batman. Senior Directors seldom see it that way.

 

My idea for Bev was that she's a normal agent who, thanks to have a father who drives sports cars for a living, can handle fast cars. The Batmobile, an armored and tricked-out Lamborghini Murcielago, is fast.

 

Going with your ideas, the team has a small fleet of cars, mostly Mustangs and Corvettes. Although they live in the mansion, they work in the cave. The only people that don't get transferred out on a whim are the support staff.

 

Wendy Roberts is the housekeeper. A former hotel maid, she's also a good cook.

 

Intelligence Agent Sarah Compton is the forensics expert and is usually found in either the lab or library.

 

Mariko Yamamoto, the technical manager, has a masters in electronics engineering and is a shadetree mechanic. The daughter of a wealthy Chicago family, she relaxes by racing in events sponsored by the Sports Car Club of America.

[UltraRob]

Re: Batman is dead

 

With all the emphasis on cars so far, this is starting to sound more like "Team Knight Rider" than "Team Batman". Also, you haven't told us their exact purpose. Are they trying to convince everyone Batman is still alive and kicking butt? Or are they trying to fulfill his role in a mysterious way, implying that Batman is behind it when it's really them.

 

If it's the former, a priceless moment just occurred to me, when the PC playing Batman suddenly finds Superman floating next to him, having dropped by to say hello....

 

Rob

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Freedom of speech doesn't give me the right to simply wantonly lambast, but Mark, this seems to come from the same general vein as the rest of your ideas, which all involve:

 

1) Manipulating Batman into either being a non-combatant or simply not relevant

 

2) Changing some random number of things in the universe and,

 

3) Making the PCs lackeys to a higher unit, whether PRIMUS, Bats himself, or whatever.

 

Which to me always sounds fantastically boring, cliche, and derivative. There's no originality here; nothing that makes this game sound any fundamentally different from the rest of the schlock that people cook up when they don't have clear direction or purpose to their design. If you want to tell a Batman story (and for all I know i'm repeating myself) and you insist on using the current genre tropes, why not use something at least moderately untouched, such as Batman Beyond.

 

Then at least it makes far more sense to have a group of PCs (the next "Batmen") tricked out with high tech gear, each built on 250 so they have specializations without overshadowing each other, chuck in some resource pools for balance (so the Martial Arts dude isn't eclipsing Gear Dude who isn't eclipsing Vehicle Girl) and then you can have your Hero, use Gotham (or if you're me, Hudson City and call it something else) and create a new pool of villains.

 

I'm just consistently missing the point of the question. WWID? I wouldn't have written anything remotely like this. I just don't see the purpose. The only reason the PLAYERS may care is because the players know who Batman is; the PCs, if played properly, will most likely shrug their shoulders and go "Huh. It was Bruce Wayne. Who knew? Hey, Johnnie, isn't that 10mm a Wayne Weapons Division original?"

 

I don't see a hook, plot arc, or anything else that can I could contribute too in this thread.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Yeah, you're right, Thia. It was the last gasp of a silver/bronze age idea that I've wanted to try for a while. I'm not sure what I'll do next, assuming that I don't give up on it. After all, I haven't gamed in over 10 years. Either way, my favorite game store is going to get an offer to buy at least part of my gaming colletion. What they don't want will get sold to Half-Price Books.

 

There are four ideas running through my mind right now.

 

First is a Marvel Avengers-style campaign set in Pittsburgh, my home town, in a universe that branched off the MU just before the Timeslide incident.

 

Second is a teen champions Buffy-style campaign set in Pittsburgh after the end of Angel: the series. The city has three Slayers, one of which is the Vice-President's daughter.

 

Third is a Dark Champions Animated campaign, set in Hudson City and following your above suggestion.

 

Last is a Dark Champions Animated campaign, set in Gotham, that can be best defined as Batman and Batgirl, the Next Generation. Batman, who is just starting out, is the son of the origional Batman and Catwoman. Batgirl, also just starting out, is his wife, the daughter of the origional Robin, who is now the Police Commissioner, and Batgirl, whi is wheelchair bound and the GCPD's IT supervisor.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Okay, well, of all of those, most of them still fall into this bizarre general "pre-written" feel; I don't see your PCs having a lot of control over their own development. This is a "buy-in" design, and that's the big problem. I've run games like this, and they can be very rewarding, but the PCs must accept any/all of the ground rules of the campaign in order for it to be playable.

 

How is it you haven't gamed in 10 years? I know there're gamers in Pixberg. I went to school two hours from there, and the city is big enough that you're guaranteed to run into some somewhere. So the first thing I would do is find some players. That being said.

 

Let's assume that I'm writing this. The first step is to flesh out "what this game is about." This game is... Vigilante Four-Color-in-Black Crime Fighting. FCiB means, basically, that we're going with the Dark genre, although CvK is still very likely, pain, punishment and broken bones are all totally acceptable. The only thing the PCs can't do is "end life." Anything else is acceptable.

 

We roll the clock forward 40 years. Batman is in his late 70s or early 80s. He's probably shagged both Catwoman & Batgirl at some point, although IIRC there are variations that have Barbara in love with Bruce, them married, her crippled, all kinds of madness. So she can still reasonably be in her 50s and married to the Man Himself.

 

Crime has always been a problem in Gotham, but with Nightwing having moved on, and Bruce effectively alienating everyone (including his own wife, although their history and her natural loyalty cause her to stay) the man has become more sullen and withdrawn now that he's powerless. All the money in the world can't replace the thrill of the hunt, and after years of feeling that he'd accomplished something, it's entirely reasonable that he's become completely withdrawn, watching everything, feeling powerless.

 

Tragedy strikes the family. Doesn't matter what. A child/nephew/son/daughter etc. is killed; we "reboot" Bruce's life, except he's 70 and completely incapable of getting involved. The very event that created Batman is now the seminal event that will end him. He's old and broken, having pushed his body far beyond the normal human limits for far too long. Regardless of what it is, Batman gets the idea in his head that he has to get back in the fight. Barbara realizes that he's looking to commit suicide and has to intervene before he does something drastic.

 

A deal is struck. Bats will use his massive information network to "recruit" a new group of crime-fighters. The police have once again become corrupt, the city is part of the New Sprawl and just as technology has advanced, so too has crime.

 

Here's the buy-in; you have to first communicate to the players the core concept of the game. "You're going to be the new Batmen. Second, there is an "uber NPC," Batman, and other characters from his past (or their descendents) may crop up. You'll have a "new Gordon," and give him a new name, his own history of wanting to be a good cop in a bad city.

 

The key is that beyond giving them initial missions and occasional assistance, the spotlight moves from the backstory to the characters. They are now a "major player" in the city. Yes, Bruce gives them intel and tech, but for a game to be good, the PCs have to ultimately move on from the old man, although if you play him right this can be a very tearful farewell.

 

Ultimately, with this setup, you CAN finally "kill" Bruce should you so choose, as the PCs either make too big a name for themselves or some other critical event takes place. This should happen, dramatically, well after the PCs have gotten used to the world, run two or three successful missions and getting cocky. They go out (for maximum impact, they go out carousing with Bruce's blessing who may very well know what's about to happen). The whole place gets sacked. The PCs only have the gear that they've stockpiled to this point. Their source of information is gone, their mentor is gone, and their meal ticket is gone.

 

They may disband, but if the whole thing is set up right, they're going to go out in Bruce's name and make the wrong things right, Crow style. Then, you have all your genre characters, the PCs will matter, the challenge will be real and they won't have to eternally contend with being second fiddle to a top banana.

 

What this does allow, though, is for the PCs to rebuild. Now they can recover notes from Wayne Enterprises, rebuild the manor (or a new one), build a new Batcave, break out into new areas of expertise (information management, vehicles, etc.) and become a young-adult (20-30) force of supers who all unite under a common cause and a common symbol. Then you'll have a game on your hands.

[JmOz]

Re: Batman is dead

 

That is remarkably similar to what I did for my DC game,

 

Mine the hero of the city, an obvious batman rip off was named the Fox, it was modern day, but he had been cripled by an enemy

 

He recruited a new team of hero's to defend his city, he became there "charlie" & there Oracle like character, him and his buttler anyways...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

This is what I'm saying. It's not crazy super-next-great-big-thing stuff, but it allows the players to be directly involved and have the camera on them.

 

For the Halliruch Campaign (where Thia Halmades was created, about four or five years ago now) the whole concept was that for the first six months of RWT, the players would be "in training," and this in turn mirrored there characters development in game as they learned tactical combat, how to use the 3.5 rules effectively, and so on. It was a great combination of real player training (the game works like this) and character training, interaction and plot set up.

 

Ultimately, in Episode... VII, "You Can Never Go Home Again," it's established that the PCs are pretty much on their own in a hostile world. No Thia Halmades, no Father Pollard, no unit commander to lead and guide them. It was an amazing way to set up & launch the campaign.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

I had an idea a while ago that might tie in to the above post. Hopefully, I still remember it.

 

Batman and Catwoman were active in the 50s-80s. Nightwing and Batgirl, alienated by Bruce, went to Seattle in 1982, where they married and continued to fight crime. The only time they weren't a team is when Barbara took maternity leave. They named their son James after her father and daughter Barbara after her and her mother and trained them in their arts..

 

Bruce married Selena in 1985. She became pregnant on their honeymoon. Shortly after their return to Gotham, Bruce, being in his 50s, began having health problems. Their son, Thomas, was born in 1986. The next year, Bruce suffered a massive heart attack and a stroke. Selena trained Thomas as well as she could to take over his father's mantle.

 

Alfred, who was in his 70s, made a discovery, too. He'd fathered a daughter by one of his associates during World War II, and was now a grandfather.

 

Flash forward to the present day. Alfred's granddaughter, Marie, a former hotel maid, now tends the manor.

 

After his complaining about the police in council chambers, Gotham's m ayor made City Councilman James Grayson the new Police Commissioner. His job is more administrative and political than anything else. The police chief handles most of the law enforcement details.

 

Thomas Wayne, the new Batman, is a skilled fighter, can climb well, and is a skilled detective, but his B&E, driving, computer, and forensic skills are well below par.

 

Barbara Grayson, the new Batgirl, is a skilled fighter, climber, motorcycle rider, and computer expert, but her B&E, forensic, and detective skills aren't very good.

 

The PCs are their partners in saving Gotham City from getting completely out of control.

[JmOz]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Except for James Greyson the other two read like PC's to me instead of NPC's, as for PC's that is great, for NPC's I would be really worried about them stealing there thunder

 

For example, in the above game my Wife's character was a Nightwing rip off named Vixen, that was fine as she was a PC, but (and this is an important note) unless Vixen was operating in a different city and interacted with the players very little she would be an inappropriate NPC IMO

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

I had an idea a while ago that might tie in to the above post. Hopefully, I still remember it.

 

Batman and Catwoman were active in the 50s-80s. Nightwing and Batgirl, alienated by Bruce, went to Seattle in 1982, where they married and continued to fight crime. The only time they weren't a team is when Barbara took maternity leave. They named their son James after her father and daughter Barbara after her and her mother and trained them in their arts..

 

Bruce married Selena in 1985. She became pregnant on their honeymoon. Shortly after their return to Gotham, Bruce, being in his 50s, began having health problems. Their son, Thomas, was born in 1986. The next year, Bruce suffered a massive heart attack and a stroke. Selena trained Thomas as well as she could to take over his father's mantle.

 

Alfred, who was in his 70s, made a discovery, too. He'd fathered a daughter by one of his associates during World War II, and was now a grandfather.

 

Flash forward to the present day. Alfred's granddaughter, Marie, a former hotel maid, now tends the manor.

 

After his complaining about the police in council chambers, Gotham's m ayor made City Councilman James Grayson the new Police Commissioner. His job is more administrative and political than anything else. The police chief handles most of the law enforcement details.

 

Thomas Wayne, the new Batman, is a skilled fighter, can climb well, and is a skilled detective, but his B&E, driving, computer, and forensic skills are well below par.

 

Barbara Grayson, the new Batgirl, is a skilled fighter, climber, motorcycle rider, and computer expert, but her B&E, forensic, and detective skills aren't very good.]

 

Fine, as a concept goes, I suppose, if you're PCs want their characters drafted in advance, this is perfectly acceptable.

 

The PCs are their partners in saving Gotham City from getting completely out of control.

 

No. No, no, no, no, no. NO. The PCs need to be the SPOTLIGHT CHARACTERS. If you want to do a Batman fanfic, this is great. If you want to do an RPG, this is horrendous. As I mentioned earlier, the whole purpose here is to the put the characters in the spotlight.

 

The PCs are the action. The camera never ever leaves them (barring a rare cut-scene) and that's how it should be. it sounds from this that the camera is on your NPCs who are (yet again) descendents (for no good reason) of other IP characters. Why?

 

Seriously. Why? Why Alfred's daughter? Why not (in the vein of the comics) some waif off the street who got caught by Batman at the wrong time, came back to the manor with Bruce after Batman stuck her in a juvie detention center, gets trained by Alfred (and he considers her his daughter) and there you have it, all without this (pardon me) ridiculous penchant for having every single character in this universe somehow related.

 

Secondus, and just as important, please steer the arc AWAY from these uber, fully fleshed out NPCs that are going to effectively be GMPCs. There's a reason we all stopped using them (we, the GMs). Because the point of our function is to provide a great game for the players, and that means giving the players the spotlight. All the time.

 

I have plenty of GREAT NPCs. Not "good," but characters people talk about today. Jarome Nicholaria, Tomas Lansdale, Amazing Grace, Thia Halmades, Arget Agorin, "V" (a female fixer whose initials are V.V., so she's simply called 'V' -- no other reference meant or intended. She says hello by flashing two fingers in a peace sign, or a V symbol). All of these characters have played major roles in the campaigns that I've run, and all of them are great, and none of them ever over-shadow the characters.

 

No. Not even the all mighty Lord Captain Thia Halmades.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Looks like this idea's dead. Looks like I'll be doing a four-color campaign set in Pittsburgh. The team's base will be the fastness their patron lived in when he was an active superhero. Until they arrive, the only residents are the housekeeper and the kind-hearted resident ghost

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

You gotta start somewhere. Just avoid the ub3r NPCs and GMPCs and let the PCs do the driving. Cough up a plot line or two and develop those inasmuch as you can to avoid rail-roading, and then post those ideas. Those we can generally help you flesh out.

[JmOz]

Re: Batman is dead

 

One last peice of advice: Ignore me, Ignore Thia, and any other poster on this board

 

Listen: To your players, ask them what THEY want, if they want to play second fiddle to the greats, or really fleshed out detailed NPC's COOL, if not, then do listen to what they say

 

For instance some of what Thia has said got me thinking about how to run a successful game going against some of her* advise (Me being cantancurous) and I came up with an idea of how to do it (Think Teen Titans back in the day, everyone plays sidekicks of the JLA like team, so they are really second fiddle to the greats, but again the sory would have to focus on the PC's, note this is only a little away from Thia's comments, and I am sure she can see some value in the idea)

 

*Not actualy sure of gender here, but for some reason I think Thia is female, my appoligies if I am wrong

 

BTW: I still use GMPC's from time to time, but it is a delicate balance to make sure they are support instead of spotlight characters

[Mark Rand]

Re: Batman is dead

 

One last peice of advice: Ignore me, Ignore Thia, and any other poster on this board

 

Listen: To your players, ask them what THEY want, if they want to play second fiddle to the greats, or really fleshed out detailed NPC's COOL, if not, then do listen to what they say

 

For instance some of what Thia has said got me thinking about how to run a successful game going against some of her* advise (Me being cantancurous) and I came up with an idea of how to do it (Think Teen Titans back in the day, everyone plays sidekicks of the JLA like team, so they are really second fiddle to the greats, but again the sory would have to focus on the PC's, note this is only a little away from Thia's comments, and I am sure she can see some value in the idea)

 

*Not actualy sure of gender here, but for some reason I think Thia is female, my appoligies if I am wrong

 

BTW: I still use GMPC's from time to time, but it is a delicate balance to make sure they are support instead of spotlight characters

 

I don't have players, yet. I've tried to get them, but Pittsburgh seems to be a D&D city, and I don't like the game anymore.

 

The patron may be the only uber NPC, and, although he's still spry (think Dr. Sloan from Diagnosis: Murder), he lives in a retirement home.

 

Other NPCs include Marie, the housekeeper; an electronics engineer that races an RX-7 in SCCA-sanctioned races and loves the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course; a secretary/receptionist; a nurse; and various liaisons.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

One last peice of advice: Ignore me, Ignore Thia, and any other poster on this board

 

Listen: To your players, ask them what THEY want, if they want to play second fiddle to the greats, or really fleshed out detailed NPC's COOL, if not, then do listen to what they say

 

For instance some of what Thia has said got me thinking about how to run a successful game going against some of her* advise (Me being cantancurous) and I came up with an idea of how to do it (Think Teen Titans back in the day, everyone plays sidekicks of the JLA like team, so they are really second fiddle to the greats, but again the sory would have to focus on the PC's, note this is only a little away from Thia's comments, and I am sure she can see some value in the idea)

 

*Not actualy sure of gender here, but for some reason I think Thia is female, my appoligies if I am wrong

 

BTW: I still use GMPC's from time to time, but it is a delicate balance to make sure they are support instead of spotlight characters

 

He doesn't actually see a lot of benefit to this design, but he also acknowledges that it is critical to know what your players want.

[JmOz]

Re: Batman is dead

 

my appoligies on the gender confusion

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Batman is dead

 

Don't worry about it, I take it as a compliment.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Batman is dead

 

I think Thia's principle is on target. Remember your (potential) players' character's first, and keep tons of room open for them. You pay a lot of attention to your development of the signature characters in your campaign. Which is great. In fact, with all the detail you have in place for the "Bat Team", you could propose a villain campaign, where characters are running through Gotham trying to take advantage of the chaos caused by the release of the Arkham Inmates.

 

Thus, when the PRIMUS Batman shows up on the scene, the characters pee themselves. But because the odds are more or less even, the characters get away or drive the Batman off. In short, they "win" the scenario.

 

I know if I was playing in that game, I'd have about a million questions, because by all accounts, the Batman should wipe the floor with a team of 250 point junior villians like us PCs. You can direct the story line in such a way that the PCs can gather evidence that Batman has changed, and might even be dead. Maybe with the big payoff that PRIMUS has taken over what was once the persona of Batman. If the PCs are the first to learn that bit of information, what could they do with it, and who would want to keep it silent.