Would you allow this?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

This gets broader and broader every time I look at it. If I can change into a specific species of dog based on havng a sample of its hair to extrapolate its DNA from, what else can I do?

 

How often are the police able to get a DNA sample from the scene of the crime? I can presumably narrow the suspect list pretty well by shapeshifting with that DNA. I may not know precisely who it is, but I've eliminated one gender and several hair colors at the very least.

 

Why the possibilities are endless - ever wonder what that hot dog is REALLY made from? Just use Shape Shift.

 

Actually, this leads to a more significant conundrum. If I can shape shift to something that matches the target's DNA, how is it that, when I Shape Shift into a mutant, whose DNA governs his superhuman abilities, I don't obtain those abilities? Shape Shift with the Cellular adder makes my DNA look like the target's DNA. It doesn't grant me the target's DNA, or I would become color blind and gain a Teeth HKA when I shape shift into a dog.

 

The more I consider it, the more I'm back to the belief that hair sample lets me grow hair that looks like that hair (even if it is dyed, I would not know that) and mimic its DNA well enough to be identified as identical from a DNA test, but that's all it does. Applying the ramifications of actually duplicating the target's DNA, instead of mimicing its "appearance" only, is too broad, and goes beyond the mandate of simply appearing to have the target's DNA.

 

Shapeshift is one of those powers that really does cause problems. Thank goodness.

 

My view is this, for what it is worth.

 

Cellular replication adder must, in some way, allow you to, at some level, perceive the target's DNA and other characteristics.

 

This is not necessarily (in fact almost certainly is NOT) conscious.

 

The power, having perceived the DNA can then make yours look like the target's. The power does not suggest a mechanism for this, so it is up to you. Perhaps a quick look, poerhaps a touch, perhaps ingesting some of the DNA.

 

Now cellular is an adder - you cannot JUST copy the DNA, you have to copy something else as well, be it the visual or tactile or whatever characteristics of the target. Anyone with cellular imitation is likely to have the whole gamut of senses affected.

 

All of this is just basic power description, I'm not speculating at all at the moment.

 

The speculation comes in when it comes to what cellular imitation means. You are indistinguishable down to the level of DNA. This includes fingerprints.

 

If such micro changes can be made it seems strange to me that macro changes cannot also be made. If fingerprints are imitated, that clearly has both a tactile and visual composnt, so presumably you would need to have the ability to shape shift both visually and to touch.

 

Cool.

 

Now, how do you do it?

 

I think my answer to this (and there is not a RIGHT answer) would be that you pick a method and stick with it.

 

If simply looking at your target allows you to uase your shapeshift, fine, but you could certainly NOT look at a hair, and shapeshift into anything BUT a hair (and you could not shapeshift into target

 

If all you have to do it ingest a small bit of DNA then a plucked hair WOULD allow you to make the change (potentially at elast - if the sample is large enough), but being in the presence of a target, or watching them on TV, unless you can ingest their DNA would not.

 

The key is that you have to define how your power works, and stick with that - you can't just take the best case scenario on a case by case basis.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

A metamorph player in our group has shapeshift. He has almost every option in it including Cellular (has to touch the subject to imitate DNA.) During an investigation they find an unusual hair. He picks it up and trys to find out what it is by using the DNA in the hair. Would you allow him to shape shift into the appearance of the creature based in the DNA in the hair?

Not based on that alone -- all he could shapeshift would be his DNA, unless he has some kind of Sense and/or Skill that allows him to interpret DNA.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

A metamorph player in our group has shapeshift. He has almost every option in it including Cellular (has to touch the subject to imitate DNA.) During an investigation they find an unusual hair. He picks it up and trys to find out what it is by using the DNA in the hair. Would you allow him to shape shift into the appearance of the creature based in the DNA in the hair?

 

 

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but you said just a 'hair' was found?

 

Most often hairs shed or lost do not have the folicle attatched.

Without the folicle, I understand you cannot get DNA.

 

So, no... I wouldn't allow it without the folicle.

If the hair had the folicle and the tone of the campaign was right, then sure! Does it fit in a dramatic sense?

 

If the player wanted to continue to do this often... I would require that he get other skills/powers. (Analyze or Detect or something)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

The hair in question was found sticking out from under a fallen concrete pillar.

 

When pulled, the hair was found to still be in-situ on the head of...well....someone rather flat. Finding sufficeint DNA was not a problem, believe me.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Tech,

 

I think it was starbucks.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

As far as the HKA goes, he bought that to imitate bites/claws

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Here's How Steve Weighed in:

 

Hmmm, interesting question.

 

That’s up to the GM. The Cellular Adder allows a character to Shape Shift down to the most minute levels, including his DNA. With the Imitation Adder allows him to mimic others, including others’ DNA, fingerprints, and the like. As noted under the description of the Imitation Adder on page 49 of UMM, “Common sense, logic, and game balance dictate there has to be some reasonable grounds for copying someone — for example, just saying “I want to copy George Washington’s DNA” isn’t enough, there’d have to be some reasonable basis on which someone could form a copy (e.g., maybe the subject to be copied has to be within Line Of Sight, or previously copied).” Whether possessing a hair from a person is sufficient to allow copying is a matter for GM interpretation. (“Realistically,” as noted on page 160 of Dark Champions, hair at best contains small amounts of DNA; a single hair, or even several, might not be enough for accurate Imitation even if the GM would otherwise allow it.)

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

This gets broader and broader every time I look at it. If I can change into a specific species of dog based on havng a sample of its hair to extrapolate its DNA from, what else can I do?

 

How often are the police able to get a DNA sample from the scene of the crime? I can presumably narrow the suspect list pretty well by shapeshifting with that DNA. I may not know precisely who it is, but I've eliminated one gender and several hair colors at the very least.

 

Why the possibilities are endless - ever wonder what that hot dog is REALLY made from? Just use Shape Shift. [Oh My God! Soylent Green is People!]

 

Actually, this leads to a more significant conundrum. If I can shape shift to something that matches the target's DNA, how is it that, when I Shape Shift into a mutant, whose DNA governs his superhuman abilities, I don't obtain those abilities? Shape Shift with the Cellular adder makes my DNA look like the target's DNA. It doesn't grant me the target's DNA, or I would become color blind and gain a Teeth HKA when I shape shift into a dog.

 

The more I consider it, the more I'm back to the belief that hair sample lets me grow hair that looks like that hair (even if it is dyed, I would not know that) and mimic its DNA well enough to be identified as identical from a DNA test, but that's all it does. Applying the ramifications of actually duplicating the target's DNA, instead of mimicing its "appearance" only, is too broad, and goes beyond the mandate of simply appearing to have the target's DNA.

 

Cops can already do the narrowing you mention if they find a hair sample that still has genetic material in it. Without having to use shape-shift. And as to telling what a hot dog is made of from the DNA in it, hot dogs are pre-cooked. Cooking something denatures its DNA, rendering it useless.

 

And I'm not quite sure how you make DNA "look" like other DNA without actually being other DNA. Anything that can mimic something on a cellular level has to be storing the information that makes it itself some other way, so there isn't any problem with mimicing the DNA actually turning them into something else.

 

And as to why someone mimicing someone else who gets their powers from being a mutant wouldn't get those powers too, it is simple. They didn't pay for them. If they did, that level of mimicry would be a great reason to let them do it. Outside of them paying for the ability to mimic the powers too, I could come up with all sorts of in game reasons why they don't get them. Probably mostly based on whatever it is that keeps them being themselves instead of the person they are mimicing interfering with the expression of the mutation based powers.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Shapeshift is a sense affecxting power' date='[/quote']

No, it isn't. It's a Body-Affecting Power. In any event, it's irrelevent. All I was saying is that it's not a *Sense* Power.

 

and the imitation and cellular adders clearly include a sensory component, or they could not mimic other people's DNA and fingerprints (which they can).

I don't see how that follows. A copy machine doesn't "see" anything, it just has the mechanism to duplicate the image placed on it.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming, entirely arbitrarily, that normal sight is is required to use shapeshift.

Nobody is assuming that at all. But in order to *imitate* the appearance of someone, you have to know what that person looks like. DNA is irrelevent in that case. Suppose you didn't care about the minute details like DNA and fingerprints, and just wanted to look like someone (like any number of celebrity impersonators).

 

Player: I Shape Shift into the appearance of whoever was in this room last!

GM: You can't. You don't have a DNA sample.

Player: That's OK, I'm not trying to copy his DNA, or imitate down to the cellular level, so I don't need DNA.

 

Whilst we can all argue about how WE would do it, looking at the rules, there is absolutely nothing that requires normal vision before you can copy someone, so the mechanism is clearly a matter not defined by the system and, as such, is a matter for agreement between player and GM. There is nothing wrong, or illegal, about defining the 'copying mechanism' as touch rather than vision. There is nothing wrong or illegal about deciding how much of the target you need to touch either.

I think it goes without saying that you need to know what you're copying before you can copy it. You don't have to be directly looking at the person, but you do have to know what you want to look like. That may mean looking at a picture, or simply remembering what he looked like the last time you saw him, or it could even be your own imagination as to what you think he looks like.

 

And if all I've got to go on is that I've touched you on the elbow, that doesn't tell me what the rest of your body feels like, let alone looks like. And if I've only seen a picture of your left foot, I have no way of knowing what your face looks like.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

............................................................. A copy machine doesn't "see" anything, it just has the mechanism to duplicate the image placed on it.

 

+ + +

 

.....................But in order to *imitate* the appearance of someone, you have to know what that person looks like. ...........................

 

We can argue this one all night, but my contention is that you do NOT have to see someone to imitate what they look like using shapeshift. What you do need is a consistent method of shapeshifting, so that if you want to imitate person A you do it he same way you would imitate person B.

 

'Knowing' what they look like is irrelevant. I'd argue that a copy machine CAN see the image that it is duplicating (it has a sensor that works on reflected light) but it in no way 'knows' what it is doing or what the original looks like - it is purely a mechanical process. A really good copier may produce an image almost indistinguishable from the original, but it is NOT the original. It always copies in the same way.

 

To carry the analogy right through, the CHARACTER is the paper, the shapeshift mechanism is the copy machine (only, you knopw, much smaller and actually IN the paper. Hmm. Like photographic film.).

 

What is important to me for the shapeshift power is for the player to define what they need to do in order to make a copy.

 

They might say they need to touch for cellular imitation, but a look will enable them to copy the outward appearance. Fine, but that is then SET. They cannot copy outward appearance with a touch, they HAVE to see the original.

 

If they define the mechanism as requiring a touch (or a sample of DNA, or, for that matter, having a sniff at the original, punching the original in the nose, or hearing the original humm The Star Spangled Banner), or if they define each element of the power as having a different enabling system (I can only smell like him once I've shaken his hand, and I can only sound like him, once I sare into his ear) then that is fine. We are making this stuff up anyway, the key is NOT getting the basic assumptions to make sense, it is consistently applying thiose basic assumptions once they have been decided upon.

 

Looking at the original post, the copy mechanism of the metamorph is not described. If he can take on the visual appearance of someone he has SEEN, then he can't take on the visual appearance of someone whose DNA he touches.

 

Consistency is king.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Basically, we are arguing SFX and not mechanics at this point. Mechanics always trump SFX. The powers does not outlaw any of this. As matter of fact the power actually doesn't require touch. I had the character put the touch limitation on that adder. This is because I had a hard time seeing someone getting DNA information from sight without enhanced or unusal senses.

 

The power doesn't specify what senses you need to use. I concede that is seems unreasonable to have an exact replica of the dog or person. He knew it was a dog by the way They did some tests on the hair before he tried to do the shift. He used the DNA information to fill in the gaps and emulate the "breed" which didn't produce an exact copy of the dog. But it was acurate enough to get a decent enough representation of what the dog might look like.

 

If he does this on a human he could get hair color. (He could get that by just looking at the hair by the way. He might get the sex. He might even get eye color. Would he get an exact replica of the man. Probably not...he doesn't know what the guy weighs (which would change appearance drastically. He wouldn't know if the guy has a beard or mustache.

 

I also trust my players. All of them are GMs. They know when they are doinf something unbalancing. And I can just say no and that would be it. I have no problem strecthing powers a little in non critical situations. In this case going by the mechanics it is perfectly legal. Could be unbalancing in the game? Sure if I let it. Couldn't mental powers do the same? Yes!

 

I will repeat what I said in an earlier post. A player thought of an innovative thing and I rewarded it. When he actually sees the dog in question he might see some things he got wrong. He has the building blocks for the animal in his hand. He knows what a dog genrally looks like. He guesses on some of the features. From real world experience a german shepard looks like a german shepard. For an exotic breed that the criminology has no record of that makes it harder.

 

The writer of that power says its up to the GM an player. He has told me flat out "No" before. No explanation...lol...just "No". If he doesn't see a huge problem with it then I don't either.

 

I started this post to get other opinions from other GMs. And I appreciate all of the feedback. It has given me enough information to help form my opinions. And I have enough to know how to handle this in the future.

 

In my game I tend to make the Super Heros "Super" and the Heroic players heroic. If you don't like the way this power was used or you don't like the way the power is written, its sounds like a perfect time to write a house rule. I have some of my own. I don't like powers with variable SFX or variable advantages. I also don't allow PCs damage reduction unless there are special cases. And even then I never let it do past 25%.

 

It is a game, I made an on the spot decision. He had fun, I had fun ,and the pther players had fun. I came here and posted this because I know the precedant it sets and I needed enough feedback to keep it from being unbalancing.

 

Thank you again for letting me come here and bouncing ideas and questions off of you.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

P.S. I'm usually a very restricting GM. I'm trying to get over that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I'd argue that a copy machine CAN see the image that it is duplicating (it has a sensor that works on reflected light) but it in no way 'knows' what it is doing or what the original looks like - it is purely a mechanical process.

But the copier has the entire image that it's copying to work from. If you blank out or cover up part of the image, that part of the image won't be seen on the copy. I can absolutely an precisely identify a particular image: "Page 100 of 'HERO System, 5th Edition, Revised'" and you can open the book and see exactly what that page looks like, but until you do (or unless you've memorized it) you can't know what the target image is.

 

But the same token, a person's DNA can absolutely and precisely identify a person, but you don't know anything about that person* unless you find them and confirm the DNA match. Shape Shifting into a person from nothing more than a sample of their DNA makes about as much sense as Shape Shifting into a person from nothing more than their social security number. Sure you can identify the person that way, but you can't draw any conclusion about their appearance unless you can "decode" the information. If you've got a SSN and a government database, you might be able to track down a picture of the person. Otherwise, it would be like trying to get a copier to produce a page just from the book title and a page number.

 

*Except for the persons sex, and maybe certain other characteristics that would be obvious from looking at the DNA itself, like Down's Syndrome, IIRC. But even then, you'd have to actually be able to look at and analyze the DNA, which ShapeShift does not allow you to do.

 

We are making this stuff up anyway, the key is NOT getting the basic assumptions to make sense, it is consistently applying thiose basic assumptions once they have been decided upon.

 

Looking at the original post, the copy mechanism of the metamorph is not described. If he can take on the visual appearance of someone he has SEEN, then he can't take on the visual appearance of someone whose DNA he touches.

 

Consistency is king.

(Emphasis mine) I think this is the source of our disagreement. To me, making sense is king. Consistency is a happy side effect that usually results when things make sense.

 

And if consistency is so important to you, how about the consistency of using Sensory Powers, not Body-Affecting Powers, to sense things.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Ouch. That was mean, Phil.

 

Totally true.

 

But mean.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

P.S. I'm usually a very restricting GM. I'm trying to get over that.

 

Why? Some genres require a very restricting & heavy hand. Dark Champions doesn't do so well when everyone has a supermobile and they're using supergadgets to fight conventional villains. Don't get over it, just use it intelligently.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

.....................

 

(Emphasis mine) I think this is the source of our disagreement. To me, making sense is king. Consistency is a happy side effect that usually results when things make sense.

 

And if consistency is so important to you, how about the consistency of using Sensory Powers, not Body-Affecting Powers, to sense things.

 

OK, Phil. Make sense of Shapeshift. You tell me how someone can shapeshift so that they are indistinguishable down to a cellular level from someone else, without in any way sensing the original DNA. Hell, tell me how they shapeshift at all.

 

You can't because it doesn't make sense. The basic assumptions in a superhero game never do. You have to know when to enforce sense and when to look the other way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

And I'm not quite sure how you make DNA "look" like other DNA without actually being other DNA. Anything that can mimic something on a cellular level has to be storing the information that makes it itself some other way' date=' so there isn't any problem with mimicing the DNA actually turning them into something else.[/quote']

 

I don't know how you turn yourself invisible, so all light passes through you, and remain able to see. I don't know how a bilogicsal entity can do without food, water or oxygen. But I accept it for characters who purchase the appropriate powers.

 

The shae Shift power presumes that making your DNA appear as someone else's DNA is possible (the assumption of the adders in question) without taking on all of the characteristics of the entity with that DNA such as, say, color blindness or low intelligence (which the Shape Shift power doesn't saddle you with), or gills or flight or a killing attack or a skunk's muk or a snake's venom or any of a million other abilities (which the shape shift power fails to grant). Either I accept that, or I ban those adders, at a minimum.

 

If the Shapeshifter (with all the adders) turns into a female elephant and has successful relations with a male elephant, will the character, on returning to human male shape, still give birth to a baby elephant in a couple of years?

 

And as to why someone mimicing someone else who gets their powers from being a mutant wouldn't get those powers too' date=' it is simple. They didn't pay for them. If they did, that level of mimicry would be a great reason to let them do it. Outside of them paying for the ability to mimic the powers too, I could come up with all sorts of in game reasons why they don't get them. Probably mostly based on whatever it is that keeps them being themselves instead of the person they are mimicing interfering with the expression of the mutation based powers.[/quote']

 

Regardless of the reason, this indicates that the DNA does not fully manifest. If logic dictates I can duplicate apppearance by duplicating DNA, it also dictates I can duplicate other abilities governed by that DNA, doesn't it?

 

As you say, you didn't pay the points to obtain those powers, so you don't obtain them. And you didn't pay the points to discover what a creature looks like from its pulped remains. You paid the points to change your appearance. That is what you can do.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

OK, Phil. Make sense of Shapeshift. You tell me how someone can shapeshift so that they are indistinguishable down to a cellular level from someone else, without in any way sensing the original DNA. Hell, tell me how they shapeshift at all.

 

You can't because it doesn't make sense. The basic assumptions in a superhero game never do. You have to know when to enforce sense and when to look the other way.

 

You're making it sound like Star Trek transporters. Making something look exactly like something else can sometimes be as simple as using a mirror to reflect light. The mirror has no knowledge of the real composition of what it is 'displaying'. The same analogy can be used with the shapeshifter. They may possess the ability to make their DNA look like someone else's DNA but it doesn't mean they actually understand the DNA they are copying/displaying.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

You're making it sound like Star Trek transporters. Making something look exactly like something else can sometimes be as simple as using a mirror to reflect light. The mirror has no knowledge of the real composition of what it is 'displaying'. The same analogy can be used with the shapeshifter. They may possess the ability to make their DNA look like someone else's DNA but it doesn't mean they actually understand the DNA they are copying/displaying.

 

 

Absolutely the point I'm making, I believe - the mirror does not have to 'know' how it is doing it, just as the character does not have to 'know' how they shapeshift BUT the mirror will only reflect something placed in front of it that is emitting or reflecting light - there is a mechanism which senses characteristics of the original and processes that information.

 

I'm arguing that you can not make sense of how shapeshift would perfectly imitate DNA because you have no frame of reference - you have to assume some things are true BUT the mechanism that is used can be defined - the conditions that are required to produce the duplicate/image or whatever, and once those are decided, they have to be consistently applied. The mirror will not reflect something behind it, or in the dark, or otherwise obstructed.

 

You cannot make sense of the starting conditions but you CAN define a mechanism and apply it consistently, and then an internally consistent sense will flow from that.

 

It is being consistent that is the key though, once you have decided the mechanism. You don't need to know how to build a photocopier to use one. It might be run by magic imps, but you can still use it if you follow the procedure. the same, very much, applies to shapeshift. If someone wants to be able to shapeshift into a perfect copy of someone, down tot he DNA, if they are wearing that person's underwear, that is how the power works. Every time.

 

The mechanism may not make sense to you, but it works, and so makes game sense. Consistency is king.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Absolutely the point I'm making, I believe - the mirror does not have to 'know' how it is doing it, just as the character does not have to 'know' how they shapeshift BUT the mirror will only reflect something placed in front of it that is emitting or reflecting light - there is a mechanism which senses characteristics of the original and processes that information.

 

I'm arguing that you can not make sense of how shapeshift would perfectly imitate DNA because you have no frame of reference - you have to assume some things are true BUT the mechanism that is used can be defined - the conditions that are required to produce the duplicate/image or whatever, and once those are decided, they have to be consistently applied. The mirror will not reflect something behind it, or in the dark, or otherwise obstructed.

 

You cannot make sense of the starting conditions but you CAN define a mechanism and apply it consistently, and then an internally consistent sense will flow from that.

 

It is being consistent that is the key though, once you have decided the mechanism. You don't need to know how to build a photocopier to use one. It might be run by magic imps, but you can still use it if you follow the procedure. the same, very much, applies to shapeshift. If someone wants to be able to shapeshift into a perfect copy of someone, down tot he DNA, if they are wearing that person's underwear, that is how the power works. Every time.

 

The mechanism may not make sense to you, but it works, and so makes game sense. Consistency is king.

 

You missed a subtle point I was trying to make Sean.

 

Just because the shapeshifter can make his DNA look like someone else's it doesn't necessarily mean that it IS like the original. No hidden properties are actually being reproduced, just the appearance of them is.

 

Let's say Cap'n Xerox copies Bob down to the molecular level. While impersonating Bob, Cap'n Xerox allows doctors to take genetic samples to test "Bob" for hereditary genetic disorder.

 

Could they find something?

 

Maybe, it depends on how accurate his power to copy is.

 

But IF they can does this mean that Cap'n Xerox could have figured it out on his own just by having the Shapeshift power with all the appropriate adders?

 

No.

Shapeshift does not give him any super-analytical power by itself. It only reflects what is being copied. Separate sensory abilities would be necessary to accomplish that.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

So how many of you would be happier if the guy soent the 5 pts to get analyze DNA based on the touch sense group?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

We know that this particular shape shift has all possible aspects of the character's appearance covered. However, that's not essential for someone to buy Shape Shift, or the adders to it. In fact, nothing would prevent this character having (as an example) Shape Shift to hearing, smell and touch, and purchasing Cellular and Imitation.

 

Now, imagine that the character (let's call him SpyGuy) wants to go somewhere only Grand Duchess Evillo of EvilVaria is supposed to be able to go. They are arch-enemies, and SpyHuy has lots of data on Evillo, right down to a DNA analysis taken when she was a prisoner some years ago.

 

So SpyGuy can use his Sound Shape Shift to fool Evillo's voice-activated locks, because he can sound exactly like Evillo. He can use his Touch based shape shift to fool the fingerprint touch pad, because he can duplicate Evillo's fingerprints. And he can even fool the blood sampler door lock, because he can precisely duplicate the appearance of Evillo's DNA.

 

But the guards outside the palace are not fooled because SpyGuy can't LOOK LIKE Evillo. He can't change his appearance to sight. But he CAN match Evillo's DNA. And, when he does so, he still looks like the burly and heroic SpyGuy, and not the svelte femme fatale Evillo, even though Evillo's DNA is what told her body to develope much of her appearance.

 

The ability to shape shift to take on the appearance of a target's DNA is a separate ability from being able to take on the appearance of a target's personal appearance. The ability to look like the target provides no information on what the target actually looks like, and similarly the ability to simulate the target's DNA provides no data on what that DNA makes the entity grow into.

 

That's the mechanics.

 

Now the SFX are another matter. Shape Shift is simply the mechanic purchased so the character in question can be a shapeshifting blob. That blob can take on all characteristics of the target. Whether those SFX make it appropriate that the blob can extrapolate some information on the target's physical appearance solely from a sample of the target's DNA is a good question, and that's what makes it a judgment call for CaptD. He didn't make the same call I would have made, but that doesn't invalidate his call - it was a judgment call, not a rule that could be read or misread.

 

I can't speak for anyone else posting to the thread, but I want to be clear that, in my opinion, there was no "right" or "wrong" answer to the question. While I know the decision I would have made based on lots of thought and discussion, I also know that, had I been the GM, I would have made a much less considered decision to move the game along. I would go so far as to say that the only "wrong" decision would have been placing the game on hold for half an hour to discuss and consider the ramifications of the decision, and make a fully considered decision, rather than going with your gut and keeping the game on line. Regardless of whether that meant an answer of "Yes, you can change into the exact creature the sample came from", "No you haven't got a cluie" or anything in between.

 

To your question of whether I would be more comfortable allowing this if the character had sensory abilities enabling him to analyze DNA... Yes, I believe I would. That sense would, assuming a successful PER roll, with whatever penalties are appropriate for the size and quality of the sample, enable him to extrapolate, to a greater or lesser extent, the kind of creature this DNA would come from. He could then easily use his shapeshifting abilities to take on the appearance of such a creature without ever having seen one. Just like he could turn into anything he's never seen based on a description of it. However, with 5 points spent, he has a basic PER roll, so there's a good likelihood of complete failure with a small and/or damaged sample, and the amount of info obtained would vary with the success of the roll.

 

And I would allow only one roll, although I would allow him to spend extra time analyzing it and, if the bonus brought his roll down to success, after that extra time, he would work it out. So if he missed by 3, spending 5 minutes on further analysis to get 3 steps up the time chart from a phase would give him the time to work it out. The ability to do this quickly and reliably would therefore require bonuses to the roll be purchased.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

You missed a subtle point I was trying to make Sean.

 

Just because the shapeshifter can make his DNA look like someone else's it doesn't necessarily mean that it IS like the original. No hidden properties are actually being reproduced, just the appearance of them is.

 

The Cellular Adder changes the character's DNA. The imitation ADDER allows him to mimic his subjects DNA. If he has changed his DNA and To mimic someone elses DNA. Why isn't it LIKE the subjects? This isn't just masking his DNA it is a change down to the cellular level.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

The Cellular Adder changes the character's DNA. The imitation ADDER allows him to mimic his subjects DNA. If he has changed his DNA and To mimic someone elses DNA. Why isn't it LIKE the subjects? This isn't just masking his DNA it is a change down to the cellular level.

 

 

If he is taking on the target's DNA, how is it that he does not take on all of the abilities and disabilities that the target's DNA provides him with? The Fantastic Four derive their powers from their altered DNA. if I can make my DNA match theirs precisely, then I should gain the powers of whichever member I match up with. The X-Men also gain their powers from their DNA, so the same applies.

 

If I ShapeShift into the Angel, I should get his mutant abilities, but not his practiced skill at using them. I should also not be able to change into Angel, using his DNA, without having his wings - they're a natural part of him - so if I want to be Warren with no wings, I should be unable to imitate his DNA. If I change into Cyclops, I can find out whether his uncontrolled eyebeams result from the nature of his mutation, or the head injury he suffered as a child. But it won't make me as good a shot with them as he is. If I change into the Beast, what stats do I get? Some of his stats are derived from his altered mutant DNA, but some come from his training as an X-Man. I should be adding the mutant portion of his extra STR and DEX to my own natural STR and DEX.

 

Also, none of those characters has the ability to shape shift. As soon as I take on their DNA, I should lose my own ability to shape shift, assuming my powers are also natural and stem from my own DNA. Since I don't lose my own natural abilities, I have not exchanged myDNA for theirs.

 

You don't get all the abilities the character's DNA confers by using your Cellular Imitate shapeshift to simulate his DNA, so therefore you are not taking on all aspects of his DNA at the celllular level.

 

To some extent, this is a "concept vs mechanics" issue. In my view, if my concept was that I could determine what a target looks like by adopting their DNA profile, then I should have purchased some kind of ability to analyze that DNA. If I told a player "doesn't work" and they felt it was in concept, I'd be inclined to allow it to work this time, but require they dedicate future xp to buying the mechanical ability to realize their conceptual vision.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

If he is taking on the target's DNA, how is it that he does not take on all of the abilities and disabilities that the target's DNA provides him with? The Fantastic Four derive their powers from their altered DNA. if I can make my DNA match theirs precisely, then I should gain the powers of whichever member I match up with. The X-Men also gain their powers from their DNA, so the same applies.

 

If I ShapeShift into the Angel, I should get his mutant abilities, but not his practiced skill at using them. I should also not be able to change into Angel, using his DNA, without having his wings - they're a natural part of him - so if I want to be Warren with no wings, I should be unable to imitate his DNA. If I change into Cyclops, I can find out whether his uncontrolled eyebeams result from the nature of his mutation, or the head injury he suffered as a child. But it won't make me as good a shot with them as he is. If I change into the Beast, what stats do I get? Some of his stats are derived from his altered mutant DNA, but some come from his training as an X-Man. I should be adding the mutant portion of his extra STR and DEX to my own natural STR and DEX.

 

Also, none of those characters has the ability to shape shift. As soon as I take on their DNA, I should lose my own ability to shape shift, assuming my powers are also natural and stem from my own DNA. Since I don't lose my own natural abilities, I have not exchanged myDNA for theirs.

 

You don't get all the abilities the character's DNA confers by using your Cellular Imitate shapeshift to simulate his DNA, so therefore you are not taking on all aspects of his DNA at the celllular level.

 

To some extent, this is a "concept vs mechanics" issue. In my view, if my concept was that I could determine what a target looks like by adopting their DNA profile, then I should have purchased some kind of ability to analyze that DNA. If I told a player "doesn't work" and they felt it was in concept, I'd be inclined to allow it to work this time, but require they dedicate future xp to buying the mechanical ability to realize their conceptual vision.

 

 

So in effect in your game you are increasing the cost of the adder from 5-1000+ points. The low end would be to add analyze DNA to Sight or Touch group, and On the High end a large enough VPP to take on all the powers of the subject. "I touched Dr.Destroyer!! Sorry your VPP is only 1000pts and he costs more than that!"