Would you allow this?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

So, for those who haven't been following, is common sense winning, or dramatic sense? Can anyone unentangle the thread?

 

My personal bias is toward dramatic sense.

 

I wish I could remember the third one, but I didn't have enough points to buy all three senses.

 

 

Just so we are clear, which argument do you see as 'dramatic sense'?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Phil, we are clearly talking about different things. I can only apologise for not laying out my argument properly, so here it is.

 

I'm talking about sfx, and simply saying that you cannot come up with an sfx that does not require sensory data directly or indirectly gathered. That is the whole of my base assumption about how you HAVE to bnuild the sfx of shapeshift. What that means is that, depending on how you gather that data, it is perfectly possible, to duplicate a copy of the original from a hair with a sufficient DNA sample.

 

Mechanically, nothing prevents it or stiplulates otherwise (correct me if I'm wrong) and, so long as the process of the sfx is consistently applied, it does not make the ability any more useful than any other sfx.

 

That is it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

You point me at the rule that says that you need to buy a sense to analyse DNA to take the cellular imitation adders for shapeshift. You do not need to because it is free with the power' date=' just like buying EB: shooting plasma flames from your eyes does not require you to buy +40 ed (eyes only). It is part of the power but ONLY something that you can take advantage of for that very, very specific purpose.[/quote']

 

You don't need to buy Analyse DNA to buy Shapeshift or Imitation. You also don't get Analyse DNA from buying Cellular or Imitate. You get the ability to IMITATE the APPEARANCE of someone's DNA, but not the ability to ANALYSE someone's DNA, nor the ability to take on ABILITIES conferred by that DNA.

 

Taking on the appearance of a target with diabetes, even down to the Cellular and Imitate level, does not make the Shapeshifter dependent on insulin. Taking on the appearance, cellular and imitate level, of Stephen Hawking does not grant you his intellect. And being able to shapeshift to match their DNA does not allow you to extrapolate their physical appearance, the sound of their voice or their body odor from their DNA.

 

The character with that EB is assumed able to fire it without personal harm. If another character targets his eyes with a flame blast, his eyes have no extra defense. If his own flame bolt is reflected back on him, he's no more resistant to it than anyone else. He has the bare minimum level of immunity required for his power to function as written, and no more.

 

My point about shapeshift is that it is complete in itself - it does what it says on the tin' date=' mechanically. It is up to us to decide the look and feel in-game[/quote']

 

This is what Phil and I are saying as well. It does precisely what it is described to do, no more and no less. It confers the ability to imitate someone else's appearance (be it their apearance as I see it, or hear it, or a retinal scanner discerns it, or a DNA test determines it). No less, but also no more.

 

and I simply say you can not have a logical' date=' consistent sfx that makes any kind of sense at all without AT SOME POINT getting access to sensory data about a target's appearance.[/quote']

 

There is a big difference from saying "you need some idea what the target looks like" and saying "you get to know what the target looks like". If I know the Chancellor of the Realm has a squeaky voice (sensory input), can I now use my Shape Shift spell to adopt his appearance? Extrapolating his appearance to sight from his voice isn't all that different from extrapolating his apearance from a DNA sample. Both are using partial information to form a complete picture.

 

Now I cannot think of a single sfx for 'imitation' shapeshift (cellular or otherwise) that does not require the gathering of sensory data (and thus the use of at least one sense)' date=' either by the shapeshifter or someone or something else (which would then have to transmit the data to the shapeshifter, and which the shapeshifter would have to perceive).[/quote']

 

A magical spell permitting you to assume the exact likeness of any creature whose True Name the character knows. But would you allow that as just ShapeShift, or require some sort of scrying ability linked to the shapeshift?

 

What happens if the DNA sample was from a mouse, by the way? Shape Shift doesn't alter mass by more than +/-10%, so the character can't shape shift into a mouse. Will the power mysteriously fail? Will the character become a giant mouse? Will he somehow *know* that this is DNA of a creature too small for the character to shape shift into? If so, will he get an idea of the physical characteristics of that creature, since he *must* be able to analyze DNA to be able to shapeshift? Or can he only analyze DNA of creatures which weigh between 90 and 110 kg?

 

I have seen some GM's require the ability to analyze DNA to be able to imitate it by purchasing the Cellular adder. I disagree with that approach - you don't need to be able to sense the characteristics you shape shift into. But neither do I agree that purchasing the ability to Shape Shift in respect of a sense you do not possess grants you any added sensory abilities.

[schir1964]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

SFX

Mutant character has the ability to take someone's DNA (obtained by through taking skin, hair follicle, bodily fluids, or whatever) and copying it. Mutant's character's body takes the sample and begins cloning it and replacing his own existing DNA with the DNA of the sample for everything except his brain, which is where the source of his mutant powers resides.

 

Obviously, the ability to replicate DNA is an inherent ability of the character since he grew from just a few cells containing DNA by splitting and replication. His mutant ability simply allows him to do it with any DNA he possesses and at such a high rate it takes less than a minute to completely replace his DNA with another's (except his brain of course since that is where the source of all mutant powers come from).

 

Therefore, the SFX allows the Mutant Character to take on all the "normal" attributes that the DNA contains (no mutant powers obviously).

 

Mechanical Build

How would this SFX be built?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

There is a big difference from saying "you need some idea what the target looks like" and saying "you get to know what the target looks like". If I know the Chancellor of the Realm has a squeaky voice (sensory input)' date=' can I now use my Shape Shift spell to adopt his appearance? Extrapolating his appearance to sight from his voice isn't all that different from extrapolating his apearance from a DNA sample. Both are using partial information to form a complete picture.[/quote']

 

I wasn't aware that the knowledge of someone having a squeeky voice had anywhere near the amount of information as to theiry physical makeup as a sample of their DNA. Where is the information stored in the squeeky voice?

 

I have seen some GM's require the ability to analyze DNA to be able to imitate it by purchasing the Cellular adder. I disagree with that approach - you don't need to be able to sense the characteristics you shape shift into. But neither do I agree that purchasing the ability to Shape Shift in respect of a sense you do not possess grants you any added sensory abilities.

 

On that we agree: Shapeshift doesn't grant any added sensory abilities, nor does it require any additional sensory abilities to use.

 

Of course, that doesn't stop it from letting you shapeshift into something else based on a sample of its DNA. As long as the player and and Ref agree that a DNA sample qualifies as "some reasonable grounds for copying someone". The guy who wrote the rules figures whether or not a hair sample is reasonable grounds is a Ref call rather than a rules call, so I figure I'll go with that. And the implication of his post was that the reason it was even an issue was that there might not be enough DNA in a hair sample, not that a DNA sample was in and of itself insufficient.

[Markdoc]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Oddly enough' date=' studies done on identical twins have shown that there isn't really any propensity for people with identical DNA to have fingerprints that are even similar. Much less the same.[/quote']

 

Correct. Hugh was making the assumption (a fairly common one) that your genes coded your fingerprint patterns and that this code could be affected by the environment. For many phenotypic features, that's true. For many pheontypic features, it isn't true.

 

Amusingly, for fingerprints the exact opposite is true.

 

Environmental factors (post developmental) are entirely irrelevant to fingerprint patterns. They are fixed at the period your fingers acquire skin (by the 17th week of gestation). And obviously, at that stage your environment (the womb) is pretty much the same or you as it is for your twin. By the time you are born, your fingerprints are set and will stay the same, no matter how many times you abrade them off - because the pattern is actually encoded in the way the cells below the outer skin are oriented.

 

That's because, like many other functions, your genes don't actually encode your fingerprints. At all. Let's be clear about this - There are no genes for fingerprints. Your fingerprints are simply randomly assembled during the developmental phase as cells are laid down in what are called "von Karman patterns" - in other words, they are largely the product of what's called "quasi-randomness", like your immune system. Basically, as your skin grows (in areas where you have prints), the inner and outer layers grow at different rates, and the outer skin buckles and twists from the stresses of staying attached. That causes fingerprints.

 

Interestingly, if you could regrow your fingers, just as some animals can regrow body parts, your new fingerprint would not be the same as your old one - because there's no genetic coding, a new, random fingerprint would be laid down as a new dermis formed. We've been able to observe the formation of new, random von Karman patterns similar to fingerprints in organisms that can regenerate.

 

There's no actual genes encoding their form at all, which is why in twin and family studies, they have proven no more likely to have related patterns than complete strangers. Having said that, there is a weak heritable effect in general patterns (so-called type 1 similarities) seen in families - this also occurs in twins. The reason is unknown, but may reflect things like general skin structure.

 

You can explore this paradox yourself! There's a fairly large twin database here, including fingerprint patterns, in Excel format.

http://www.theiai.org/twinsresearch/index.php

If you do a simple regression analysis you will note two things

1. Twins do (in general) have fairly similar fingerprint patterns, though there are some highly divergent pairs and

2. It's easy to find complete strangers who actually have MORE similar patterns to one twin than his (or her) twin does (I found two in the first 10 comparisons).

 

Moreover, you can see the degree of similarity is no different between identical twins (who share all their genetic material) and fraternal twins (who don't). Basically, twins are likely to have general fingerprint patterns which are weakly similar to one another, as most family members do. But that's all.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

OK, I'm getting tired with the astonishing level of misunderstanding. Perhaps that is the fate of the shapeshifter.

 

Answer me this one then, pure and simple:

 

How does someone with normal senses copy DNA and how does their power KNOW what it's appearance is?

 

It is not good enough to say 'it doesn't matter mechanically' - that is a given - I'm asking you to find a logical sfx that does not involve a sense (their's or someone else's) that the character does not (apparently) have.

 

Do that and I'll shut up.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

OK' date=' I'm getting tired with the astonishing level of misunderstanding. Perhaps that is the fate of the shapeshifter.[/size']

 

Answer me this one then, pure and simple:

 

How does someone with normal senses copy DNA and how does their power KNOW what it's appearance is?

 

It is not good enough to say 'it doesn't matter mechanically' - that is a given - I'm asking you to find a logical sfx that does not involve a sense (their's or someone else's) that the character does not (apparently) have.

 

Do that and I'll shut up.

 

The aliens in the Species movies fit the bill.

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

The aliens in the Species movies fit the bill.

 

I think what he was after was how it is done without a sense that shapeshift does not give you.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I think what he was after was how it is done without a sense that shapeshift does not give you.

 

What senses would those aliens have that is usable without their shapeshift?

 

The alien from John Carpenter's The Thing is another good example. Looking at the alien blood under a microscope wasn't enough. It was only identifiable when threatened with fire. What senses would you give that alien?

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

What senses would those aliens have that is usable without their shapeshift?

 

The alien from John Carpenter's The Thing is another good example. Looking at the alien blood under a microscope wasn't enough. It was only identifiable when threatened with fire. What senses would you give that alien?

 

We seem to be talking past each other. Let me reprase the question to see if I can make it more clear (assuming of course I'm understanding Sean's question myself):

 

Can you come up with what you would consider to be a logical SFX for a shapeshift power (with both Cellular and Imitate) that would allow the perfect copying of the DNA of another creature, but which does not require the use of a sensory power that would have to be purchased seperately. Keeping in mind that DNA is not observable in any way with the normal senses that a standard character starts with in Hero.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

We seem to be talking past each other. Let me reprase the question to see if I can make it more clear (assuming of course I'm understanding Sean's question myself):

 

Can you come up with what you would consider to be a logical SFX for a shapeshift power (with both Cellular and Imitate) that would allow the perfect copying of the DNA of another creature, but which does not require the use of a sensory power that would have to be purchased seperately. Keeping in mind that DNA is not observable in any way with the normal senses that a standard character starts with in Hero.

 

May I cheat?

 

Please do.

 

Thenk yew

 

MAGIC The character magically assumes the form of the desired creature, right down to its specific DNA. The magic provides no ability to sense or analyze that DNA. It just makes you identical. Perhaps the magic requires you know the True Name of the target. Perhaps you must have seen him once in passing. But you can shift into his shape with eprfect accuracy.

 

Mystique (X-Men) can copy DNA perfectly, and there is no evidence that she has any ability to sense or analyze that DNA. Oddly, she is not capable of shifting her scent, something Wlverine has caught her on occasionally.

[Mentor]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

So the question seems to be;

 

Does the alien in John Carpenter's "The Thing" or Mystique in the X Men movie get the ability to anylyze DNA of sells or hair when they buy Shapechange at cellular level or just copy someone/something they have seen or touched (depending on SFX) unless they buy analyze DNA as a power?

 

Does this cover the main points of the controversey?

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

May I cheat?

 

Please do.

 

Thenk yew

 

MAGIC The character magically assumes the form of the desired creature, right down to its specific DNA. The magic provides no ability to sense or analyze that DNA. It just makes you identical. Perhaps the magic requires you know the True Name of the target. Perhaps you must have seen him once in passing. But you can shift into his shape with eprfect accuracy.

 

Mystique (X-Men) can copy DNA perfectly, and there is no evidence that she has any ability to sense or analyze that DNA. Oddly, she is not capable of shifting her scent, something Wlverine has caught her on occasionally.

 

If you could explain why "It's magic" is acceptable for making a copy of a creature down to the DNA if the whole creature is available, but isn't acceptable if the whole creature isn't available I'd appreciate. Because to me it works for both, without the need to postulate any extra senses or analyse skills.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I'm talking about sfx' date=' and simply saying that you cannot come up with an sfx that does not require sensory data directly or indirectly gathered.[/quote']

Well, that isn't what I'm talking about. Fortunately, I don't need to come up with an SFX. That's up to the individual player. If his power concept should also grant the ability to extrapolate a good deal of information about someone from a hair follicle, then that's an additional ability that also needs to be paid for. And certainly various limitations may apply to the person's Shape Shift, such as needing direct physical contact with the subject's DNA - if you don't have a bit of skin or hair or blood, etc., then you can't Imitate the subject (at least not "Cellularly", or maybe not even be able to Shape Shift at all, depending on how the player defines it).

 

I really liked the way Hugh put it:

There is a big difference from saying "you need some idea what the target looks like" and saying "you get to know what the target looks like".

 

That is the whole of my base assumption about how you HAVE to bnuild the sfx of shapeshift. What that means is that, depending on how you gather that data, it is perfectly possible, to duplicate a copy of the original from a hair with a sufficient DNA sample.

Yes, it is - if you pay for the ability.

 

How does someone with normal senses copy DNA and how does their power KNOW what it's appearance is?

 

It is not good enough to say 'it doesn't matter mechanically' - that is a given - I'm asking you to find a logical sfx that does not involve a sense (their's or someone else's) that the character does not (apparently) have.

How 'bout the one schir1964 gave? Mystique seems to also be a good example. And there's always magic.

 

AFAIK, Mystique cannot imitate someone based solely on a DNA sample, such as a hair follicle.

 

Suppose you can Shape Shift into any type of car (with the Imitate and Cellular adders). You see a car, you can assume its shape. If you only see a rear bumper of the car, you could form a car that has that bumper, filling in the rest of the details of the car with your own imagination. Or you might be able to assume the form of the exact car the bumper came from, but first you'd need to know what that car is. This would probably require some kind of Knowledge Skill. If you're really good, or if the bumper is distictive enough, you might be able to determine the exact make, model, and year. And you might even know what colors were available for that car. The Shape Shift does not give you the KS for free.

 

And maybe you also have +X" Running, only while shaped like a car, so you can actually do what the car can do. But this doesn't automatically give you KS: Automotive Engineering for free.

[schir1964]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Since my name was mentioned...

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for SFX first before the build is considered. I doubt anyone here tells their players to not bother to come up with a SFX before building it mechanically as standard method for creating characters. There are exceptions of course but we are talking about the norm here.

 

Now I think the point that Sean was trying to make is that the Hero System, although flexible, has certain design constraints when "Reasoning From SFX". One presumption is that all characters have senses, and these senses are the vehicle through which one gains knowledge (Skills), information (Sight, Hearing, and so forth), and controlled action (Jumping, Lifting, Attacking, and so forth. And these things must interact consistently within the campaign universe the GM creates. Sean's point is that most campaign's normally have presumptive set of consistent rules, one of which is that without some type of Sense (Sight, Hearing, Magical, whatever) a character can't interact with the campaign world in any meaningful way.

 

Can a character have sudden insights into understanding which would normally not be within their comprehension? Possibly, Deduction seems tailored to allow this, however, such things are specifically left to the GM to control.

 

Can a character have an absolute guarantee of any ability purchased to work exactly as they envisioned? No. Again, such guarantees reside solely with the GM.

 

Can a character have a reasonable expectation of how any ability they have purchased will work most of the time? Yes.

 

So it seems to me the disconnect has to be the SFX vs the Mechanical build and the expectation thereof.

 

Perhaps the problem is that Hero has mixed SFX with Mechanics here, and if so it hasn't been the first time. It seems to me that the Modifiers Cellular and Imitate are SFX not mechanics themselves. And that is what causes the problem.

 

I'll go ask my question somewhere else.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Trebuchet]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I'd probably allow such a power if I could be convinced that the character in question has the necessary senses to translate from raw DNA in a hair sample to a complete person. IOW, I might require a Detect DNA with a suitable Discriminatory and Analyse, just as I'd probably require a character with Megascale Running to have enough telescopic sight to avoid running into walls at Mach speeds.

 

I would have questions about this power and game balance in certain types of campaigns, but that's a separate issue. But on the whole, if he paid the points for it and can justify it with a halfway reasonable sfx, I'd allow it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

If you could explain why "It's magic" is acceptable for making a copy of a creature down to the DNA if the whole creature is available' date=' but isn't acceptable if the whole creature isn't available I'd appreciate.[/quote']

 

If all the magic has is a hair, all it can duplicate is the appearance of that hair. It can make your whole DNA structure look like the DNA of that hair. It can make your hair the same length as that one specific hair, and the same colour. You can even have the same split ends.

 

But the magic can only duplicate appearances. It cannot extrapolate, from that hair, what kind of creature that hair fell out of. It does not know how many limbs it has, whether it walks on four legs or two, how tall it might be, what colour its eyes are, or even whether it has eyes.

 

Shape Shift duplicates appearances. It does not change the substance of the creature. The shape shifter needs to have some idea of the appearance he is trying to simulate. Hearing a target over the radio would enable the shape shifter to simulate that target's voice, but not his eye colour or hair length. Seeing a photograph of the target's face would permit the shapeshifter to take on that face, but not a voice or a club foot - he doesn't know about either from the photo.

 

Minor advantages and drawbacks might arise from SFX. Major additional abilities, such as "extrapolate physical appearance from a small DNA sample" are paid for separately.

 

The classic shapeshifter with Cellular and Imitate is Mystique. She imitates, but cannot analyze, DNA.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what limitation they would allow for a shapeshifter who CAN'T duplicate non-DNA appearance from a small DNA sample. If this is allowed by default, then there must be some limitation for a character who lacks this default ability, mustn't there?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

May I cheat?

 

Please do.

 

Thenk yew

 

MAGIC The character magically assumes the form of the desired creature, right down to its specific DNA. The magic provides no ability to sense or analyze that DNA. It just makes you identical. Perhaps the magic requires you know the True Name of the target. Perhaps you must have seen him once in passing. But you can shift into his shape with eprfect accuracy.

 

Mystique (X-Men) can copy DNA perfectly, and there is no evidence that she has any ability to sense or analyze that DNA. Oddly, she is not capable of shifting her scent, something Wlverine has caught her on occasionally.

 

 

That's not cheating, because you don't win the prize - it is simply avoiding the question. EVEN IF it IS magic, how does it do it? The sfx of magic is only one level of sfx. We've talked about this before.

 

You have a mechanism, and an enabling mechanism. So, the mechanism might be 'an invisible demon goes and has a look at the original and then changes you to resemble it'. The enabling mechanism for the demon and the change is 'Magic'. The 'meta sfx' if you will.

 

Just because noone ever explained how Mystique shapeshifts does not mean that a sensory mechanism is not involved. It has to be. Whatever the enabling mechanism (magic, mutation, superscience, cosmic power) you cannot come up with a mechanism that does not require data from or about the original if you are imitating.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Well, that isn't what I'm talking about. Fortunately, I don't need to come up with an SFX. That's up to the individual player. If his power concept should also grant the ability to extrapolate a good deal of information about someone from a hair follicle, then that's an additional ability that also needs to be paid for. And certainly various limitations may apply to the person's Shape Shift, such as needing direct physical contact with the subject's DNA - if you don't have a bit of skin or hair or blood, etc., then you can't Imitate the subject (at least not "Cellularly", or maybe not even be able to Shape Shift at all, depending on how the player defines it).

 

I really liked the way Hugh put it:

 

............................

 

So what are you talking about?

 

The rules, the mechanics, do not define a mechanism, so it is quite wrong to imply one that prevents an individual's appearance to be extrapolated from a hank of hair and a piece of bone (or a DNA sample).

 

All you need is a properly defined sfx (which you need for each and every power), and no, you do not have to come up with one, but the heart of my point is that you can't come up with one that does not involve obtaining sensory data that a character who is entirely normal except for having the shapeshift (cellular imitation) power, hence the sfx require (in most cases) the assumption of a subconscious sensory power to enable the mechanics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

If all the magic has is a hair, all it can duplicate is the appearance of that hair. It can make your whole DNA structure look like the DNA of that hair. It can make your hair the same length as that one specific hair, and the same colour. You can even have the same split ends.

 

But the magic can only duplicate appearances. It cannot extrapolate, from that hair, what kind of creature that hair fell out of. It does not know how many limbs it has, whether it walks on four legs or two, how tall it might be, what colour its eyes are, or even whether it has eyes.

 

Shape Shift duplicates appearances. It does not change the substance of the creature. The shape shifter needs to have some idea of the appearance he is trying to simulate. Hearing a target over the radio would enable the shape shifter to simulate that target's voice, but not his eye colour or hair length. Seeing a photograph of the target's face would permit the shapeshifter to take on that face, but not a voice or a club foot - he doesn't know about either from the photo.

 

Minor advantages and drawbacks might arise from SFX. Major additional abilities, such as "extrapolate physical appearance from a small DNA sample" are paid for separately.

 

The classic shapeshifter with Cellular and Imitate is Mystique. She imitates, but cannot analyze, DNA.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what limitation they would allow for a shapeshifter who CAN'T duplicate non-DNA appearance from a small DNA sample. If this is allowed by default, then there must be some limitation for a character who lacks this default ability, mustn't there?

 

OK, Hugh - how does Mystique - who has no apaprent unusual senses - 'know' what the DNA she is changing her own to resemble 'looks' like? She can't see it. She has to sense it some other way.

 

That's my point, but to take the point that others seem so keen on, read the entry on shapeshift. Whilst it makes sense that you should in some way know what the original is like to copy them that is not required by the rules.

 

If I'm wrong, you tell me where it says the original has to be there, or you have to have any kind of contact with them or information about them at all to perfectly imitate them.

 

It doesn't, does it? No. However, it only makes sense if you have to know at least something of them before you can copy them, and that is where the sfx come in. So we are back to my point after all.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I'd focus more on the in-game problems with such a Power:

 

Would it allow the character to perfectly imitate any individual with whose DNA he comes in contact?

 

Would that allow him to imitate a long dead person such as Abraham Lincoln? Can the power go back an indefinite amount of time?

 

If the copied individual has a genetic disease, does the character contract that disease as well?

 

Does the power recreate "after birth" physical properties such as missing limbs, scars, sex changes?

 

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then it's not a "perfect copy" - it's only a first order approximation (as is suggested under Shape Shift when copies of characters can be spotted as copies by anyone with a -3 PER roll). What it does is create a good "artist's rendering" along the lines of those done by police artists. Without substantial amounts of Acting, Disguise, and Mimicry in addition to Shape Shift it's highly unlikely the shapeshifter could pass as the original.

 

Retrocognition would be a lot cheaper way to solve crimes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I'd focus more on the in-game problems with such a Power:

 

Would it allow the character to perfectly imitate any individual with whose DNA he comes in contact?

 

Would that allow him to imitate a long dead person such as Abraham Lincoln? Can the power go back an indefinite amount of time?

 

If the copied individual has a genetic disease, does the character contract that disease as well?

 

Does the power recreate "after birth" physical properties such as missing limbs, scars, sex changes?

 

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then it's not a "perfect copy" - it's only a first order approximation (as is suggested under Shape Shift when copies of characters can be spotted as copies by anyone with a -3 PER roll). What it does is create a good "artist's rendering" along the lines of those done by police artists. Without substantial amounts of Acting, Disguise, and Mimicry in addition to Shape Shift it's highly unlikely the shapeshifter could pass as the original.

 

Retrocognition would be a lot cheaper way to solve crimes.

 

Not problems, opportunities...

 

First off, assuming that you pick the sfx: physical appearance is extrapolated from a DNA sample, then it will have certain consequences:

 

To answer your questions:

 

Would it allow the character to perfectly imitate any individual with whose DNA he comes in contact?

 

Yes

 

Would that allow him to imitate a long dead person such as Abraham Lincoln? Can the power go back an indefinite amount of time?

 

Technically, yes, if the DNA is well enough preserved. if not yuo might get a partial copy, or just a mess....

 

If the copied individual has a genetic disease, does the character contract that disease as well?

 

No, only the appearance of any disease that is a genetic consequence - you get no advantage or disadvantage other than apeparance from the power

 

Does the power recreate "after birth" physical properties such as missing limbs, scars, sex changes?

 

No, unless they are a consequence of genetic makeup.

 

So, the copy IS perfect, it just may not be a perfect copy of the current model. In some situations this might be a problem, in others an advantage. In all the advantages and disadvantages about balance (or can be made to balance), so it is an appropriate sfx in my opinion.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

The problem with that interpretation is that genetics are not the only determinant to appearance. Nutrition, health, and other factors also contribute. Genetics doesn't decide where the beauty marks and wrinkles go, for example.

 

I repeat: Assuming that a character with cellular-level Shape Shift can proceed from a mere DNA sample (by no means a given), they are still only going to be a rough approximation of the source. To be a true copy, they need contact with the original person. (Note that in X2, the bad guy easily recognized that Mystique - copying Wolverine - was not Wolverine even though Mystique is often held up as the peak of this ability.)

[Vondy]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

How defined is the special effect?

 

If the FX is that he duplicates their cellular structure on touch then it seems reasonable that he could shift into an exact copy of the person whose DNA sample he has a sample of. However, genre is going to impact this because, while he should be able to fool biometrics with it, he might not look exactly like the person (for a number of reasons). It depends how realistic you want to be, and how much you want to stretch the definition of "cellular." If you allow him to copy the nutritional and conditioning realities of the person, as well as the "cellular age," then its a great way to get a "mug shot." If you don't stretch that then you'll get a rougher idea of what they look like - ballpark, but not exact. In most supers games, and fantasy games, I'd probably make the stretch. In a gritty game that includes the conceit of self-professed realism, I wouldn't.

 

Also, is he a mimmic, or just a shape-shifter?

 

Even though it would be logical that an exact genetic duplicate could mimmic gene-based powers, simply shape-shifting isn't enough, in a mechanics sense, to allow him to figure out what the person's powers are (despite being perfectly logical). I'd let him shift into an exact copy of the person in most cases (or close), but not give him any more information that "what they look like" and not give him any powers from it.

 

Its a clever use of his power, and if my guess about FX and genre is correct, well within bounds.