Would you allow this?

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

A lot comes down to the shapeshifter's SFX. However' date=' as I consider it, I'm inclined to say he can shapeshift into a dog with hair just like the hair sample and DNA just like the DNA sample. But the dog is based on what he thinks a dog should look like, sound like, etc. - he hasn't seen it or heard it, so he has no basis of determining those characteristics.[/quote']

 

Not quite no basis. He has only the basis of the genetic makeup of the dog in question. Not enough to copy that specific individual, but easily enough to come up with the general characteristics. Assuming of course that the SFX for the shapeshift would allow it.

 

If the character's DNA governed his shape' date=' he wouldn't be able to change his shape, would he? After all, if he becomes the dog in all respects, he gains the dog's intellect and colorblindness as well, and most shapeshifters don't take on characteristics such as that. [And the other PC's may get annoyed at a teammate that keeps sniffing their rears and humping their legs...']

 

Interesting point, but not overly relevent. I was talking about the DNA of the dog, not the DNA of the character. Presumably the makeup of a creature that can alter what it's cells and DNA look like are determined in a different fashion, so the DNA of the character doesn't matter that much, and might not even exist. As to the DNA of the dog, yes, it does determine to some extent the shape of the dog. There are environmental factors as well, so JUST a DNA sample isn't going to give a perfect picture of a specific dog, but it could easily be enough to determine what breed it was.

[Maur]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Even with the DNA you would have issues making the specific due to the Epigenetics of the genome. Epigenetics is what helps a liver cell from expressing skin cell proteins or characteristcs. Even with the DNA of a subject you wouldn't be able to match up the fingerprints, retinal pattern, skin pattern, body height/weight, etc... That all is an effect of the environment in which those genes are grown up (eat lots of fast food and you won't look the same as if you grew up with a more balanced diet and exercised a lot, but you have the same genes). Identical twins don't share the same fingerprints...

 

As for the Y chromosome making something male...

 

Question: Why can frogs (some species) change sex?

Mike A Smola

 

Answer:

This is a complex subject. Several studies have exposed some of the answers to this question, but a definitive answer is yet to be made.

 

It all boils down to the level of which genes are activated. Studies have shown that the sex chromosomes are not necessarily the determining factor. The traditional display of a female is when an individual has two X chromosomes present. When one of these genes is a Y, it is a male. This tends to be the case for most organisms that sport individuals that are different sexes. However, the Y chromosomes has been almost always a male determining chromosome, but with molecular biology and genetic engineering techniques, a male can be made from a XX combination and females have developed from XY combinations. These are extremely rare, but they have given insight to the fact that there are other factors beside X and Y chromosomes that determine sex, probably a gene

found in both chromosomes.

 

As far as frogs are concerned (and other organisms that display this Phenomenon), apparently there are chemical triggers that respond to the number of members in a population that will activate the gene(s) that will allow for the disintegration of one set of sex organs and the development of the other. This is an advantage to a species

whereby they have evolved the ability to assure their reproductive success.

Steven D Sample

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

take all that stuff i wrote' date=' fix it so that i don't sound stupid, and go with that... [/quote']

 

I've found my new sig!

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

lol Nekkid

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Maur,

 

You might not want to allow the adder into your game:

Cellular: Shape Shift ordinarily only affects the

character’s outward appearance (broadly speaking).

His basic identifying characteristics — DNA,

fingerprints, retina prints, and the like — remain

unchanged. With this +10 Character Points Adder,

Shape Shift works down to the most minute levels

of a character’s body. His DNA, fingerprints, retina

prints, and so forth all change (though the character

needs Imitation to make them mimic those of someone

else).

 

This combined with imitation allow alot of possibilities. I think from the previous posts I would allow him to turn into a Dog, one that looks simular to the ones that are being used. NOT the exact dog. If he uses it on human DNA he might get hair color and someone that has simular traits. If he knows what the person looks like And touches him (thats a naked limitation we put on the DNA adder). He can do a convincing imitation of the subject. Down to the fingerprints. This is a superhero game and there is a fair amount of rubber science.

 

I didn't mean to turn this into a heredity vs envronment debate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Maur

 

You might not want to allow the adder into your game:

Cellular: Shape Shift ordinarily only affects the

character’s outward appearance (broadly speaking).

His basic identifying characteristics — DNA,

fingerprints, retina prints, and the like — remain

unchanged. With this +10 Character Points Adder,

Shape Shift works down to the most minute levels

of a character’s body. His DNA, fingerprints, retina

prints, and so forth all change (though the character

needs Imitation to make them mimic those of someone

else).

 

This combined with imitation allow alot of possibilities. I think from the previous posts I would allow him to turn into a Dog, one that looks simular to the ones that are being used. NOT the exact dog. If he uses it on human DNA he might get hair color and someone that has simular traits. If he knows what the person looks like And touches him (thats a naked limitation we put on the DNA adder). He can do a convincing imitation of the subject. Down to the fingerprints. This is a superhero game and there is a fair amount of rubber science.

 

Ignoring the rubber science issue, which is valid, I think the point Maur is making is that the DNA alone is not all that determinative of the entity it comes from. This certainly supports ruling that the ability to imitate someone else's DNA, retina scans, etc. does not enable you to duplicate an otherwise unknown entity solely from their retina scan, their fingerprints, their DNA, etc., although you may be able to duplicate that component of their "appearance".

 

At the end of the day, I don't think a 10 point or 20 point Shape Shift adder should be considered to purchase the ability to identify the traits of another entity from a sample of that entity. If you have its hair, you can fool a DNA scanner and duplicate the hair colour and texture. You can't imitate that entity's retina scan, fingerprints, appearance, etc. because you have nothing to base it on.

 

That's the ruling I would ultimately make, although I could see myself making the same quick ruling you did in order to keep the game moving.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

To me, it comes down to the principle of - you must know what you're shape shifting into. If you have a hair, you can shapeshift into a copy of that hair, or change your hair to match it, etc.

 

Suppose our ShapeShifting guy was in pitch darkness and someone bumped into him. Based on that momentary touch, could he make himself look like the person, even though he had no idea who it was or what the person looked like. If the stranger in the dark said, "Excuse me," ShapeShiftMan could probably guess the person's sex, and that he was human, but that's about it.

 

Would you allow PlasticMan to reach one finger through a black curtain to touch some object and then be able to change into whatever that object was?

 

It's just not enough information.

 

And I wouldn't worry about the instant ruling that CaptD made setting a precendent, especially if it's a superhero game. They do inconsistant things in the comics all the time. In effect, there are no precedents in comics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I would allow it, pretty much.

 

First off, you should be able to (given a sufficiently developed science) be able to clone someone from DNA, and a clone will closely resemble the original. Close enough that you could pick them out in a lineup, or at least identify them as closely related. The power is effectviely defined as an auto clone ability.

 

Secondly, THAT is how the power works - you touch the DNA and copy it. Why should it make any difference if you can't see the original - would that mean you cannot copy someone if it is dark, by touching them?

 

Third, shapeshift is way too expensive for utility in most games, so I'm feeling generous.

 

HOWEVER, there are ways around this if it is going to damage the game, for the sneaky GM. Shapeshift does not copy powers, and powers can have sfx including changes in physical appearance, so you might shapeshift into what the subject would look like if they did not have powers.

 

Physical appearance can be hugely affected by, for instance, how much you eat. Copying someone's DNA would not tell you if they were overweight, or wore a beard, or had had plastic surgery.

 

Also the sneaky GM can use this - plant a bit of evidence and the PCs are after the wrong man (or woman or dog...)

 

So, absolutely I would allow it - it is good, innovative and appropriate play, and we should not be looking for ways to restrict that BUT a smart GM will always be able to use something like this to further the story.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Point of interest - clones do not have identical fingerprints, but would have sufficiently similar ones that you would be able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty that the prints came from clones - but that is not going to be good enough for evidence at law.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Also' date=' after I allowed the Dog. The Player joked that he can flatten himself over the floor and pick up the skin particles. I told him no. lol[/quote']

 

Oh, go on, allow it. Mind you, he probably picks up several different skin particles and shapeshifts into anamalgam creature that looks like a mess, with possible painful results. (Actually most skin flakes probably do not contain useable DNA. Hair only has useable DNA if the living root is plucked - the actual hair iteself does not carry DNA.)

 

Bear in mind it is easier to shapeshift into something you can see, in most cases, than into something you have to take a genetic sample from.

[Markdoc]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Point of interest - clones do not have identical fingerprints' date=' but would have sufficiently similar ones that you would be able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty that the prints came from clones - but that is not going to be good enough for evidence at law.[/quote']

 

Actually, there's no reason for clones to have similar fingerprints - most of your body is not hard-coded by your genes: your genes simply say "make random wiggly bits of raised skin on the palm and fingers".

 

Given that, I have no problem with the shapeshifter being able to turn into the specific species of dog based on DNA from hair - but as many people have already said, I wouldn't allow a specific individual without more info*. Thus a skinscraping from under the fingernails of a murder victim would let you say "these came from a male caucasian with blond hair - and he has severe astigmatism, so might wear glasses" - but nothing about his hair style, whether he is an adult, how much he weighs, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

 

* mostly as a game balance issue - after all, the guy has paid to be able to make exact copies down to the cellular level of people. There has to be some way he can do that. Does it require visual contact? There's actually way more information in DNA than a visual scan, but I could see requiring DNA for cellular copying, visual scan for appearance, hearing voice to copy that, etc.

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

It wasn't a major plot point in the story. They found the hair because it was more foreshadowing. They were supposed to put it together in the end. The player surprised me with an innovative idea and I awarded it. I also let him know yesterday the extent that this work. Largely influenced by this board. I like the..."you can get the general idea of what it looks like but not specifically route." Also, if he wants to do it to find a killer or villian its a good plot device for me. I can give general ideas about who they are looking for. Hehe, has anyone thought of what happens if he uses that ability on someone with a genetic disorder. It could come up if its overused. Sorry, evil GM coming out.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Generally, based on the mechanics I would have allowed it. However, this would clinch it:

 

The player surprised me with an innovative idea and I awarded it.

 

I'm all about this.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Deh. I'm no genetic scientist; I would barely get through Physics 101 despite my love for it and I'd certainly fail 10th grade biology. So. (Bio. Icky.) My common sense ruling would be very similar to what's been said;

 

1) Yes, he can ABSOLUTELY change all HIS hair to match the hair he picked up. However, the whole DNA thing -- far as I'm concerned, a Shifter is a really fancy Xerox machine. He needs to see the thing he's xeroxing in order to get it right.

 

2) So no, he can't go so far as species, blah blah blah. Bone structure isn't guaranteed; my sister & I have the same blend o'DNA and the only things the two of us have in common are a penchant for being chubby and brown hair; and that isn't even the same shade.

 

So I don't really know just how much that'll give you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

On the subject of hair, could the character use the DNA from a person's hair, duplicate them, and then discover that the hair in the Sahpe Shift form doesn't match the hair they used to define the shape shift, thus discovering that the character whose hair they used has dyed it?

[CaptD]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I would say yes Hugh. If he uses the DNA adder. By sight this character wouldn't be able to tell that unless he plucked some hair and looked at the root (usually original color is at the root unless it was just dyed.) This character that we have been talking about has to actually touch the person in question to use the DNA adder. I didn't want it to be used by sight alone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Actually' date=' there's no reason for clones to have similar fingerprints - most of your body is not hard-coded by your genes: your genes simply say "make random wiggly bits of raised skin on the palm and fingers".[/quote']

 

Fingerprints are a phenotype - the expression of an interaction of genotype (your genetic instruictions) and environment, so there is a reason for similar fingerprints, but unless the environmental experiences had been identical, the expression of the genotype (i.e. the phenotype) will not be identical.

 

Fingerprints are generally computer matched these days, but back in ancient history (i.e. about 10 years ago) we took the damn things by hand with an ink pad, and someone had to check them by eye.

 

To make that job easier, broadly similar prints were filed together (double whorl, single wave, whatever). Two identical twins would almost certainly have prints in the same broad groupings, and they may even look the same at a glance but would ebe easily distinguishable on detailed analysis.

 

Given that, I have no problem with the shapeshifter being able to turn into the specific species of dog based on DNA from hair - but as many people have already said, I wouldn't allow a specific individual without more info*. Thus a skinscraping from under the fingernails of a murder victim would let you say "these came from a male caucasian with blond hair - and he has severe astigmatism, so might wear glasses" - but nothing about his hair style, whether he is an adult, how much he weighs, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

 

* mostly as a game balance issue - after all, the guy has paid to be able to make exact copies down to the cellular level of people. There has to be some way he can do that. Does it require visual contact? There's actually way more information in DNA than a visual scan, but I could see requiring DNA for cellular copying, visual scan for appearance, hearing voice to copy that, etc.

 

What you can get, in effect, is an instant clone.

 

A clone will almost certainly not look identical to the parent organism, but will look strikingly similar. there will be differences, but you may get an almost exact match, or you may get something very different i.e. it is still up to the GM if it works, which is plenty of game balance IMO.

 

Cellular shapeshifting is not going to come up that much, so when it does, the points have to have meaning. In most game worlds, 'superpower evidence' will be inadmissable, as results are rarely capable of duplication by another. Thereby hangs any number of plot hooks....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Deh. I'm no genetic scientist; I would barely get through Physics 101 despite my love for it and I'd certainly fail 10th grade biology. So. (Bio. Icky.) My common sense ruling would be very similar to what's been said;

 

1) Yes, he can ABSOLUTELY change all HIS hair to match the hair he picked up. However, the whole DNA thing -- far as I'm concerned, a Shifter is a really fancy Xerox machine. He needs to see the thing he's xeroxing in order to get it right.

 

2) So no, he can't go so far as species, blah blah blah. Bone structure isn't guaranteed; my sister & I have the same blend o'DNA and the only things the two of us have in common are a penchant for being chubby and brown hair; and that isn't even the same shade.

 

So I don't really know just how much that'll give you.

 

Hair DNA is not really any different from any other DNA in the body, except that it will have certain genes turned on and certain genes turned off.

 

To get a 'proper' clone you need genetic material that has not become differentiated and specialised, so there is sense in what you say.

 

Ultimately though it is really a judgement call for the GM. If the game is one in which detectvie skills and mysteries abound, then instant cloning is not going to be encouraged, but in a four colour game where it is only ever going to be genuinely useful once or twice, there is no reason I can see to prevent it.

 

Bear in mind that for just 3 points you could buy a detect that would allow you to perceive the expressed form of a DNA sample. If you don't WANT the ability then don't let it work, if it is just a question of cost utility then change the cost of the cellular adder, require the 'imitation' adder as well and/or require a new adder to 'instant clone'.

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Fingerprints are a phenotype - the expression of an interaction of genotype (your genetic instruictions) and environment, so there is a reason for similar fingerprints, but unless the environmental experiences had been identical, the expression of the genotype (i.e. the phenotype) will not be identical.

 

Fingerprints are generally computer matched these days, but back in ancient history (i.e. about 10 years ago) we took the damn things by hand with an ink pad, and someone had to check them by eye.

 

To make that job easier, broadly similar prints were filed together (double whorl, single wave, whatever). Two identical twins would almost certainly have prints in the same broad groupings, and they may even look the same at a glance but would ebe easily distinguishable on detailed analysis.

 

Oddly enough, studies done on identical twins have shown that there isn't really any propensity for people with identical DNA to have fingerprints that are even similar. Much less the same.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

That's not what I've read, but then again, identical twins are often very different. Fred is missing an ear and George is dead, for example.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

2) So no, he can't go so far as species, blah blah blah. Bone structure isn't guaranteed; my sister & I have the same blend o'DNA and the only things the two of us have in common are a penchant for being chubby and brown hair; and that isn't even the same shade.

 

On average, full siblings share half of their DNA, and could in theory share anywhere from 0 to 100% of it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

First off' date=' you should be able to (given a sufficiently developed science) be able to clone someone from DNA, and a clone will closely resemble the original. ... The power is effectviely defined as an auto clone ability.[/quote']

But it isn't "clone" it's "shape shift." Shape Shift does not grant you the automatic ability to "decode" DNA. If you get a bit of DNA from someone, SS does not allow you to "see" the DNA and immediately know what physical traits it codes for.

 

"Aha! This sequence goes GTAATCAGATTC! That mean's he's got blonde hair! Here's a sequence that goes ACTTTCGATCAGGT - that means the fingerprint on his left pinky contains a clockwise whorl."

 

Secondly, THAT is how the power works - you touch the DNA and copy it. Why should it make any difference if you can't see the original - would that mean you cannot copy someone if it is dark, by touching them?

That's right. You can't imitate someone's voice if you've never heard them speak. You can't paint a portrait of someone if you don't know what they look like. Shape Shift allows *you* to change *your* shape. It doesn't allow you to determine anything about someone else's shape from a bit of DNA.

 

Third, shapeshift is way too expensive for utility in most games, so I'm feeling generous.

And I don't have a problem with the particular use described, as a one-time power stunt to determine the species of a dog, but in general, no.

 

1) Yes, he can ABSOLUTELY change all HIS hair to match the hair he picked up. However, the whole DNA thing -- far as I'm concerned, a Shifter is a really fancy Xerox machine. He needs to see the thing he's xeroxing in order to get it right.

Exactly! Shape Shift is not a Sense power. It doesn't give you any ability to read or decode DNA. Any more than you could pick up a piece of thread and then be able to shape shift into the article of clothing that it came from.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

But it isn't "clone" it's "shape shift." Shape Shift does not grant you the automatic ability to "decode" DNA. If you get a bit of DNA from someone, SS does not allow you to "see" the DNA and immediately know what physical traits it codes for.

 

"Aha! This sequence goes GTAATCAGATTC! That mean's he's got blonde hair! Here's a sequence that goes ACTTTCGATCAGGT - that means the fingerprint on his left pinky contains a clockwise whorl."

 

 

That's right. You can't imitate someone's voice if you've never heard them speak. You can't paint a portrait of someone if you don't know what they look like. Shape Shift allows *you* to change *your* shape. It doesn't allow you to determine anything about someone else's shape from a bit of DNA.

 

 

And I don't have a problem with the particular use described, as a one-time power stunt to determine the species of a dog, but in general, no.

 

 

Exactly! Shape Shift is not a Sense power. It doesn't give you any ability to read or decode DNA. Any more than you could pick up a piece of thread and then be able to shape shift into the article of clothing that it came from.

 

 

Shapeshift is a sense affecxting power, and the imitation and cellular adders clearly include a sensory component, or they could not mimic other people's DNA and fingerprints (which they can).

 

Everyone seems to be assuming, entirely arbitrarily, that normal sight is is required to use shapeshift. I don't see that (pun intended, obviously)

 

Nowhere does it say in the power description HOW you go about imitating and cellularly copying a target - it has been left deliberately vague.

 

Whilst we can all argue about how WE would do it, looking at the rules, there is absolutely nothing that requires normal vision before you can copy someone, so the mechanism is clearly a matter not defined by the system and, as such, is a matter for agreement between player and GM. There is nothing wrong, or illegal, about defining the 'copying mechanism' as touch rather than vision. There is nothing wrong or illegal about deciding how much of the target you need to touch either.

 

If a small quantity of DNA is enough, then so be it. Personally I would be more inclined to require a larger quantity than a single hair folicle, or at least make it clear that the smaller the sample the less accurate the copy will be, with a 'perfect' copy only being acheived by physical contact witht he living organism. That is just how I'd do it though, and if you want to do it differently then that is not wrong. It is not 'the' right way to do it either - there isn't one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

But it isn't "clone" it's "shape shift." Shape Shift does not grant you the automatic ability to "decode" DNA. If you get a bit of DNA from someone' date=' SS does not allow you to "see" the DNA and immediately know what physical traits it codes for.[/quote']

 

This gets broader and broader every time I look at it. If I can change into a specific species of dog based on havng a sample of its hair to extrapolate its DNA from, what else can I do?

 

How often are the police able to get a DNA sample from the scene of the crime? I can presumably narrow the suspect list pretty well by shapeshifting with that DNA. I may not know precisely who it is, but I've eliminated one gender and several hair colors at the very least.

 

Why the possibilities are endless - ever wonder what that hot dog is REALLY made from? Just use Shape Shift. [Oh My God! Soylent Green is People!]

 

Actually, this leads to a more significant conundrum. If I can shape shift to something that matches the target's DNA, how is it that, when I Shape Shift into a mutant, whose DNA governs his superhuman abilities, I don't obtain those abilities? Shape Shift with the Cellular adder makes my DNA look like the target's DNA. It doesn't grant me the target's DNA, or I would become color blind and gain a Teeth HKA when I shape shift into a dog.

 

The more I consider it, the more I'm back to the belief that hair sample lets me grow hair that looks like that hair (even if it is dyed, I would not know that) and mimic its DNA well enough to be identified as identical from a DNA test, but that's all it does. Applying the ramifications of actually duplicating the target's DNA, instead of mimicing its "appearance" only, is too broad, and goes beyond the mandate of simply appearing to have the target's DNA.

[Tech]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

BDH,

 

I love that signature...lol

 

And I like your signature quote. What type of coffee was Cap having?

 

Back to the topic at hand.