New mechanic: Open Ended Count

[Chris Goodwin]

This is something I've been pondering over for a long time, and I can see multiple applications. I'm looking for some way to apply an open ended count when a Power is used. The count wouldn't necessarily have any effects on its own, though it could be used in conjunction with Side Effects, with other Powers that might activate (or shut off) when the count reaches a certain threshold, with multiple Powers that have varying effects based on the count, with Accidental Change, Susceptibility, or other Disadvantages, etc.

 

It could represent heat in Battletech, the Dark Side of the Force, Mage-like Paradox, a timed buildup, or a number of other effects.

 

I'm not looking for an END Reserve; I'm looking for a literal countup from zero with no mechanically-set maximum (though a player could set one; for instance, Power X has Not When Count Above Y). I'm also not looking for a straight Side Effects, as the count doesn't have any particular ill effects on its own.

 

Ideas?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

It's also an open ended question, as the best approach probably depends on what you want to do with it.

 

You could:

 

- track the number of times the power(s) in question are used.

 

- track the BOD count on damage dice, which would make Count rise faster the more power is used, so more granular than the first option.

 

- track the total rolled on the dice, for an even faster rise, and greater range of possible results (problematic with KA's)

 

- Track the number of active points used in each phase (or some fraction thereof) if you want to include abilities that lack damage dice.

 

It depends on what you want to count.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

It's also an open ended question, as the best approach probably depends on what you want to do with it.

 

You could:

 

- track the number of times the power(s) in question are used.

 

- track the BOD count on damage dice, which would make Count rise faster the more power is used, so more granular than the first option.

 

- track the total rolled on the dice, for an even faster rise, and greater range of possible results (problematic with KA's)

 

- Track the number of active points used in each phase (or some fraction thereof) if you want to include abilities that lack damage dice.

 

It depends on what you want to count.

 

All of these are precisely examples of the kinds of things I'd like to be able to count.

[Mister E]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Hm... I could really use this, big-time.

[schir1964]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

I'll have something for you a bit later.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

I'll have something for you a bit later.

 

I figured if anyone would step up to the plate it would be you.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Oh: This should be specified. You need to name your count(s) and come up with at least a basic SFX as to what it represents (i.e. heat, Paradox, etc.).

[schir1964]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Threshold Framework

The Threshold Framework contains powers that have a specifically defined threshold. What happens when this threshold is reached is hashed out by the Player and GM.

 

Threshold Components

• Framework SFX: Defines the Threshold SFX that all slots share or have in common.
  
• Framework Threshold (Optional): Defines the trigger or condition for all slots.
  
• Slot SFX: Defines the Threshold SFX for the slot.
  
• Slot Threshold: Defines the trigger or condition for the slot.
  

 

Note: It is possible to have a Framework Threshold that is different than a Slot's Threshold. The slot is subject to the trigger/condition of both definitions. Such combinations should be discouraged for simplicity unless it is necessary for the concept.

 

Costs

Framework: TBD

Slots: TBD

 

Modifiers

TBD

 

Possible SFX/Threshold Concepts

 

Time Threshold: This threshold is based on a specific amount of time that has passed. The count reset might be continuous in that the count resets after the threshold is reached and starts over or the count might only begin after the slot is used and then resets after threshold is reached and then only restarts once the slot is used again.

 

Condition Thresholds

Number Of Slots: This threshold is based on a specific number of slots that are being used.

Custom Stat Value: This threshold is a number that is reached with a Custom Stat that is tracked (such as Heat Level, Endurance Used, etc...).

Random Chance: This threshold is a specific value which is met by a random method (Dice Roll, Card Flip, etc...).

 

Chris, this is just a stab in the dark but if it is something you might find as a useful tool then I'll work on fleshing it out as you see fit.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

I was thinking more that the threshold had a recovery value that could be dependent on any of a number of things.

 

And I was thinking of more of a modifier or set of modifiers than a framework; I'd rather add as little as possible. What kind of costs were you envisioning for the framework?

[schir1964]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

I was thinking more that the threshold had a recovery value that could be dependent on any of a number of things.

Then perhaps Threshold should be handled in a similar manner that END Reserve is handled.

Threshold = Count or Condition, etc...

Onto this you can attach Recovery options.

You could then have many Recovery types applied to the same Threshold concept.

 

And I was thinking of more of a modifier or set of modifiers than a framework; I'd rather add as little as possible. What kind of costs were you envisioning for the framework?

I didn't want to even consider costs until I was sure this construct is what you had in mind. Since it isn't, there's no need to try to evaluate the costs.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

This sounds like a Campaign Specific sort of thing.

 

It doesn't need an underlying mechanic, just an agreement between the group that a certain aspect is being tracked and things happening or not happening will depend on it.

 

Other Powers or abilities could take a Limitation to reflect their dependency on the count being lower or higher.

 

The Dark Side:

If the character commits too many acts determined to be evil their powers diminish.

Light Force Powers take a mandatory -1/4 "Must Have Dark Side Level Below X"

 

or something.

I don't really see this as a "mechanic" so much as part of setting up a Game to begin with.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

There are a lot of variables to track.

 

Let me ponder it a bit more, maybe write something up. My OP was kind of thinking out loud.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

I recall a fantasy game we played some while back, which introduced a new mechanic we called Life Energy.

 

Everyone had a certain amount of it at birth and most races had the same amount.

 

You lost life Energy through major trauma, spell casting (you had to use LE to power spells) and the process of ageing.

 

I can't recall the exact numbers now, but say the starting figure was 1000 LE.

 

An average Human in the game would live to be 70, so that is a little over 14 points per year, or about 4d6 points of LE 'damage' on your birthday that you lost. Happy Birthday.

 

Elves, who could live to be 1000 years old only lost 1 per year. I think we did this with a variation on Life Support.

 

Major trauma and disease also caused a loss - 1 LE per 3 BODY, if memory serves. Many undead could damage LE at a higher rate.

 

The biggest LE drain though was magic. Every 10 active points in a spell cost 1 LE. that is about 140 fireballs, and a 21 year old is dying of old age.

 

This had a profound effect on magic use, understandably.

 

You COULD use LE from other sources to power spells, and certain items (wands, staves) made LE use more efficeint (1 per 20, or even better). The other sources included meteorites - fallen stars that contained magical energy - or you could steal it from people. this meanst that the most powerful magicians were the ones without any scruples about a little human sacrifice. That made most magicians rather shunned. 'White' magicians tended to only use magic if they REALLY needed to.

 

This seemed to explain almost every fantasy convention about magic, ever.

 

Anyway, the point of this is to suggest that, rather than a count from zero, you might want to allocate a certain number of points for things like 'DarkSide corruption' and you take 'damage' to the allocation based on your actions.

 

I always think that a number ticking DOWN is more dramatic than one that counts UP.

 

As Ghost Angel says, it would be campaign specific, but can I suggest 100 is a pretty good number of points for most things - as you lose them the remaining points are a percentage indication of how close you are getting to whatever consequences await you.

 

Once nice idea (for Force Corruption) might be to have every Force Adept buy a multipower with a limitation that the available slots were related to your current Corruption rating - so the Light powers could only be accessed by those true to the Jedi path, and the Dark powers only by those drawn tot he ways of the Sith.

 

 

 

Edit - we tracked chronological and 'actual' age seperately, and applied age related penalties when the ACTUAL age ticked over a relevant point e.g. you were over 40 for agme purposes when you were down to 428 LE, whatever your chronological age.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Ever played Hero Clix?

 

The powers you have acecss to are determined by how much damage you have taken.

 

I quite like that idea, and you could use your current STUN or BODY total as a count that granted or denied access to certain powers.

 

Say you had 60 STUN, and you decided that you had some powers that you could use when you had 41-60 stun, some you could use when you had 21-40 stun and some you could sue when you had 20 or less.

 

That means, on the face of it, each 'set' of powers is only useable about 1/3 of the time, and it should get a -1 1/2 limitation, based on the 'limited power' limitation.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

That's awesome -- especially the Life Energy thing (reminds me of a GURPS magic system that was discussed internally years ago but never saw the light of day, and which I've kept wanting to use in a Fantasy Hero game). And I agree that counting down from X is probably more dramatic than counting up from 0. And I can see perfectly good reasons for counting down from X. But (a) someone is inevitably going to suggest using END Reserve for that, and ( I can easily see dramatics coming from increasing a value, especially if there's a die roll based on the total, and © counting down to 0 from X has a stopping point and you might not always want that.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Say you had 60 STUN, and you decided that you had some powers that you could use when you had 41-60 stun, some you could use when you had 21-40 stun and some you could sue when you had 20 or less.

 

That means, on the face of it, each 'set' of powers is only useable about 1/3 of the time, and it should get a -1 1/2 limitation, based on the 'limited power' limitation.

 

This is the kind of thing I'm looking at, modulo tying it to STUN or another Characteristic. Just, basically, the notion that you can track other things like Dark Side Points, Paradox, anger level, etc.

 

(I'm not saying never, never, I hate it, no tying to stats; it's just that I know how to do that already.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Here's another thought, sort of on the thinking out loud line...

 

Instead of a counter, a sliding scale.

 

-100 to 100.

 

This would work nicely for Force thingies (Dark Side/Light Side). The more Positive you are the more access you have to things relying on a positive score, more powerful "Light Force" abilities, and access to more and different ones to use a Force example.

 

At 0 you have roughly equal access to low levels of both. As you move towards one end or the other you lose access to one side and gain more access on the other.

[CTaylor]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

I don't understand what you're trying to model here could you give a more specific example?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Ok, some specific examples:

 

* Battletech-style accumulation of heat, where problems could be bought as Limitations based on the value. Heat sinks are a SFX that allows you to vent off heat.

 

* Dark Side points, from Star Wars. Using Dark Side Powers causes you to gain them, bringing you closer in that direction. You can work them off in some way determined by the GM or the campaign.

 

* Flub points. Every time you miss a Magic Skill Roll, you gain flub points. On a critical failure, all of your accumulated flub points are spent by the GM on Side Effects. Or, on a failure you can spend some of them (at least as many as you gained) on Side Effects; you get some choice, but they still have to be negative.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Sounds a lot like variations on the LTE rules and Karma Points.

[Doc]

Re: New mechanic: Open Ended Count

 

Maybe you can keep track of Active Points used by the powers you want to subject to this rule? Would it be too complicated (as I'm still a novice...)?

 

For instance, for heat in an engine, each post-segment 12 would see an heat attack (EB?) to the engine with the strenght of accumulated (used) APs. Vent SFX reduces the heat APs accumulated.

 

A dark force's power user would receive a mind control attack once in a while the strenght of the accumulated "dark" APs. While under "dark force's" mind control, the character naturally uses more dark powers, building up more and more is dark AP pool. When the mind control hits EGO +50, the character has fell permanently on the dark side...

 

Another way would be to give a character with "dark" APs accumulated some new dark powers AND some new disadvantages both the same worth of APs. For instance, a character who would have used too much of his desolidification power would first gain 'invisibility' to touch group and a pshychological (common, strong) to interacting with the physical world (both worth of 15 APs. As his abuses of desolidification goes on, his APs go from 15 to 20 (adding Invisibility to smell/tast group and psychological limitation passing to very common), and then, to 25 APs (addinf invisibility to touch and psychological limitation passing to total). This would represent the fact that the he his more and more distant of the physical world, he feels less and less confortable within its boundaries and the physical people tend to react to this by being unable to notice him anymore...

 

Well, I tried my best. Hope it has been usefull.