My Failed Project

[Squall]

Re: My Failed Project

 

And that brings up another oddity I've noticed in arguing this with people. If a player comes up and says I'm a normal human I've trained myself' date=' by simply lifting weights to a 60 STR. There are VERY few people that would accept that concept. Normal humans can't train and get a 60 STR. Most people have a limit for what STR a normal human can reach. However you apply that same concept to DEX and those same people that limit STR lose their minds. What's the difference? To me there isn't one.[/quote']

I think one issue is that Strength is something that's immediately quantifiable. In-game, it's easy to remember that every handful of Strength points gives you 1d6 of damage, for instance, so it's easily comparable to any other attack power for any other character, in order to set the general power level of a campaign. Out-of-game? We all have a Strength score, and know people with higher or lower Strength scores than us, and it's easy to look at the chart and see how much a given Strength score can lift, and get a general idea.

 

It's used as a "benchmark" stat for lots of people, as an easy way to see what's human versus superhuman, for those very reasons (I think).

[Checkmate]

Re: My Failed Project

 

I think one issue is that Strength is something that's immediately quantifiable. In-game, it's easy to remember that every handful of Strength points gives you 1d6 of damage, for instance, so it's easily comparable to any other attack power for any other character, in order to set the general power level of a campaign. Out-of-game? We all have a Strength score, and know people with higher or lower Strength scores than us, and it's easy to look at the chart and see how much a given Strength score can lift, and get a general idea.

 

It's used as a "benchmark" stat for lots of people, as an easy way to see what's human versus superhuman, for those very reasons (I think).

I absolutely agree, but what I find amusing is that people have no qualms at all about capping STR for the normal trained human, but suggest the same thing for DEX and all of sudden people break out the pitchforks and the noose.

[Utech]

Re: My Failed Project

 

To me the important consideration is this: if you are putting points into a Characteristic or Power simply to reach the campaign's minimum standards, you're playing in the wrong game or the campaign's standards need to be reexamined.

 

If a player says, "My guy is no more agile than a normal human so I guess his DEX will be about 8. His super powers are all about the fire blasts, you know."

The GM should not have to say, "You'll never hit anybody and you'll always be hit. Let's raise that 8 to 18."

 

If a player says, "My guy has skin like a normal human. I try not to get hit and I'm really quick. I guess his PD should be about 4."

The GM should not have to say, "You'll be splattered immediately. Let's give him bullet-proof spandex."

[Squall]

Re: My Failed Project

 

I absolutely agree' date=' but what I find amusing is that people have no qualms at all about capping STR for the normal trained human, but suggest the same thing for DEX and all of sudden people break out the pitchforks and the noose.[/quote']

Oh, yeah. I'm not arguing or anything, just saying why it's always seemed to me that Strength holds a special place in gamers' collective hearts. Not just in terms of capping it versus capping other stats, and not just in Champions, or even just in HERO games...it just seems to be one that lots of gamers latch on to as their gold standard for what's "realistic," because it's the one that seems to be the most numerically quantifiable, and comparable to real-world numbers we can all wrap our head around.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: My Failed Project

 

To me the important consideration is this: if you are putting points into a Characteristic or Power simply to reach the campaign's minimum standards, you're playing in the wrong game or the campaign's standards need to be reexamined.

 

If a player says, "My guy is a normal human so I guess his DEX will be about 8."

The GM should not have to say, "You'll never hit anybody and you'll always be hit. Let's raise that 8 to 18."

 

If a player says, "My guy is basically a normal human. I try not to get hit and I'm really quick. I guess his PD should be about 4."

The GM should not have to say, "You'll be splattered immediately. Let's give him bullet-proof spandex."

 

??!?

If a player is making a character for a Champions game (this is the Champions forum) he is getting superhero level amounts of character points. Choosing to play a normal human absolutely demands the GM explain those very examples to the player.

[Utech]

Re: My Failed Project

 

??!?

If a player is making a character for a Champions game (this is the Champions forum) he is getting superhero level amounts of character points. Choosing to play a normal human absolutely demands the GM explain those very examples to the player.

Ah, my example was written in haste and not as complete as it should have been. I'll edit.

 

What I meant to say is that there's nothing at all wrong with playing a superhero (I know this is the Champions forum) who is no more agile or tough than a normal human. There are plenty such examples in the comics. If you'd rather play a game where all the superheroes are immune to small arms fire and faster than Bruce Lee, get player buy-in, sink the required buy-in cost worth of character points into your Characteristics, and game on! But if you'd like to play a game where not all superheroes are immune to small arms fire and many are slower than Bruce Lee, there shouldn't be any need to sink character points into Characteristics that don't match the character concept.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: My Failed Project

 

But you make it sound like its the players choice on what type of game the GM decides to run.

If the GM says up front "I'm running a 4-color champions game"

and a player then wants to play a 'normal human' then it doesn't match the setting.

[wick]

Re: My Failed Project

 

Armored costumes for the X-men is not out of the question since at one point at least Forge designed some costumes (1995-6?) that were bullet/damage resistant but light weight and flexible. I am sure this tech has been copied or reinvented by some of the other super genius types as well.

 

I defintely like the concept of reasonable stats. Cyclops may be in pretty good shape but that is no reason to make him more agile than an olympic gymnist or be able to beat most professional arm wrestlers. why would it be embarassing for a thug that gets the drop on Cyclops to knock the crap out of him? His powers don't have anything to do with his stats. I would give him some martial arts training, tactics and team work to represent his combat experience and Danger room training. he would definitely be in the competent human range.

 

Just make sure you skew the entire world to that standard and you should be ok. In the Conquerer, Killers, & Crooks book you are hard pressed to find a villian with less than 4 spd in there, it is like standard. Heck even Bulldozer has 4 SPD & 20 DEX.

[JmOz]

Re: My Failed Project

 

You can model your world as a normals with powers, so all characters follow "concept" or you can build based on what is common in comics for them to do. Neither is "bad" but I think that when you look at what characters do, especialy "normals" in comics having them be past olympics is not even a question, but a mandatory type of thing.

 

However expect more "Midnighters" in the first who have some reason for powers based characteristics (Combat computer, I am a mutant who is slightly more than a human in all ways, Super soldier formula, etc..) than Batman's then

[JmOz]

Re: My Failed Project

 

Armored costumes for the X-men is not out of the question since at one point at least Forge designed some costumes (1995-6?) that were bullet/damage resistant but light weight and flexible. I am sure this tech has been copied or reinvented by some of the other super genius types as well.

 

I defintely like the concept of reasonable stats. Cyclops may be in pretty good shape but that is no reason to make him more agile than an olympic gymnist or be able to beat most professional arm wrestlers. why would it be embarassing for a thug that gets the drop on Cyclops to knock the crap out of him? His powers don't have anything to do with his stats. I would give him some martial arts training, tactics and team work to represent his combat experience and Danger room training. he would definitely be in the competent human range.

 

Just make sure you skew the entire world to that standard and you should be ok. In the Conquerer, Killers, & Crooks book you are hard pressed to find a villian with less than 4 spd in there, it is like standard. Heck even Bulldozer has 4 SPD & 20 DEX.

 

 

I think it was actualy Shi'ar tech, but yes the average x-men costume is bulletproof, and protective in cold and heat

[Checkmate]

Re: My Failed Project

 

You can model your world as a normals with powers, so all characters follow "concept" or you can build based on what is common in comics for them to do. Neither is "bad" but I think that when you look at what characters do, especialy "normals" in comics having them be past olympics is not even a question, but a mandatory type of thing.

 

However expect more "Midnighters" in the first who have some reason for powers based characteristics (Combat computer, I am a mutant who is slightly more than a human in all ways, Super soldier formula, etc..) than Batman's then

This is absolutely true. While I like my way better, it really doesn't model the comics quite as well. One of the best examples is Green Lanter Kyle beat up an entire prison without his ring. The female Captain Marvel (the one that turns herself into light Monica something or other) beat up some trained fighters without her powers. The comics seem to agree with the "Standard" Champions giving all supers superhuman stats.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: My Failed Project

 

monica rambeau

[JmOz]

Re: My Failed Project

 

This is absolutely true. While I like my way better' date=' it really doesn't model the comics quite as well. One of the best examples is Green Lanter Kyle beat up an entire prison without his ring. The female Captain Marvel (the one that turns herself into light Monica something or other) beat up some trained fighters without her powers. The comics seem to agree with the "Standard" Champions giving all supers superhuman stats.[/quote']

 

You have the relationship backwards, the reason Champions is the way it is is because it is trying to model what the comics do

[Utech]

Re: My Failed Project

 

But you make it sound like its the players choice on what type of game the GM decides to run.

It's a conversation between GM and players. If you don't get buy-in from all parties, you'll end up with disappointment.

If the GM says up front "I'm running a 4-color champions game"

and a player then wants to play a 'normal human' then it doesn't match the setting.

Right. I said that, too.

[Greywind]

Re: My Failed Project

 

It's a conversation between GM and players. If you don't get buy-in from all parties' date=' you'll end up with disappointment.[/quote']Not necessarily.