Clinging, UAA

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Clinging prevents you being removed against your will from a surface. I can see nothing that says it prevents movement. Mind you I've said that.

 

I see the idea of this use as analagous to someone who buys UAA LS: Self contained breathing and wants to use that to suffocate someone. It is not what it is for. It is not what it does. That, you understand, is what I see. You can do anything you like, and I may well be in a minority here.

 

One more attempt to convince: why would you want to build it this way?

 

Compare:

 

SUPER GLUE:

 

40 STR TK: only to hold a target in place against a surface (-1), no range (-1/2) 24 points

 

40 STR clinging (10+ 30) for 20 points and UAA +1 for 40 points.

 

So the clinging option is more expensive, in terms of real points. Mechanically it does the same: 40 STR to hold you in place against a surface, so no difference there. The only difference I can see is in terms of active points, and therefore maximum effect you can get in under any campaign limits. So, a meta-game reason, pure and simple. That's the strongest argument I can present.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Sean,

 

I must congratulate you on going beyond your previous best in not making sense.

 

The power Clinging was originally based on the comic character Spider-Man.

 

Spider-Man's ability is itself inspired by spiders and to a lesser extent geckos.

 

It is well documented that geckos have complete control of their ability to stick-to and later un-stick to whatever surface they on to allow them to walk along it. I would hazard a guess that the same applies to spiders as well.

 

Spider-Man has used his very similar ability* on more than one occasion to resist being pulled away from a particular surface to the point of the surface itself breaking. *That is, to stay stuck to a surface.

 

The definition of UAA states the owner of the power has complete control of its function and use.

 

Ergo, Clinging with UAA will make the target stick to whatever is available and the power's owner wants to be affected.

 

Hyper Man, I'm shocked! Hero mechanically has nothing to do with sfx. Clinging was included, I'm sure, because people might want to build someone like Spiderman, but suggesting that the sfx informs the way the power works and should be interpreted is positively heretical. And this is me saying that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Hyper Man' date=' I'm shocked! Hero mechanically has nothing to do with sfx. Clinging was included, I'm sure, because people might want to build someone like Spiderman, but suggesting that the sfx informs the way the power works and should be interpreted is positively heretical. And this is me saying that.[/quote']

 

 

I was only using special effect to help illustrate the point that UAA gives the owner of the power it purchased with complete control of its effect. Walking along a vertical or horizontal surface with Clinging requires control of the power which in the case of it being forced on someone by way of UAA they do not have.

 

You are attempting to nerf UAA by a round about argument vs. cost instead of actually making a logical argument against the way it works.

 

Now I'll be the first to admit that this could be an abusive ability (just like any UAA power). Like NND, UAA effectively demands that a common defense be defined on the power it is applied to.

[Tonio]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Clinging prevents you being removed against your will from a surface. I can see nothing that says it prevents movement. Mind you I've said that.

 

I see the idea of this use as analagous to someone who buys UAA LS: Self contained breathing and wants to use that to suffocate someone. It is not what it is for. It is not what it does. That, you understand, is what I see. You can do anything you like, and I may well be in a minority here.

 

I assume you're talking about Clinging UAA preventing the target from moving along the surface... because Clinging very clearly talks about preventing moving off the surface. "Against your will" turns into "against the power user's will" because of the UAA. So effectively Clinging UAA will make it so someone can't move off the surface w/o a successful STR vs STR roll.

 

One more attempt to convince: why would you want to build it this way?

 

Compare:

 

SUPER GLUE:

 

40 STR TK: only to hold a target in place against a surface (-1), no range (-1/2) 24 points

 

40 STR clinging (10+ 30) for 20 points and UAA +1 for 40 points.

 

So the clinging option is more expensive, in terms of real points. Mechanically it does the same: 40 STR to hold you in place against a surface, so no difference there. The only difference I can see is in terms of active points, and therefore maximum effect you can get in under any campaign limits. So, a meta-game reason, pure and simple. That's the strongest argument I can present.

 

Well what about that rule (unwritten? I think it's somewhere in the book, not sure) about not "hacking" powers to have them simulate others? The reason why you don't buy HA, Ranged, Can't Add STR... you buy EB. You're using a custom limitation ("Only to hold a target in palce against a surface") on a power, rather than using a pre-existing Advantage on another power.

[CTaylor]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I think there's room for disagreement and handling things differently in campaigns. I see good arguments for either interpretation, and I'd be fine with either one. Personally, I'm going with the "attack makes a power inconvenient" interpretation and am using it in my game.

[Vestnik]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

How about Clinging, UAA, Damage Shield?

[Markdoc]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Compare:

 

SUPER GLUE:

 

40 STR TK: only to hold a target in place against a surface (-1), no range (-1/2) 24 points

 

40 STR clinging (10+ 30) for 20 points and UAA +1 for 40 points.

 

So the clinging option is more expensive, in terms of real points.

 

I'd agree that both of these are valid builds and I'd agree that the TK is actually cheaper in this case (though perhaps slightly less useful since as built you can't stick people to anything except surfaces, which makes it fair enough). I can't see either one as abusive, so .... ahhhh .... is there a problem here? 'Cause I'm still not seeing it.

 

I'd certainly give the hairy eyeball to any UAA power that appeared to duplicate an existing power more cheaply. However, if someone wants to duplicate an existing power more expensively, well, as long as they do so in an informed fashion, that's OK with me.

 

Unless I misunderstand you, you've just done an end-run around your own argument

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

How about Clinging' date=' UAA, Damage Shield?[/quote']

 

That is, in fact, the tar baby effect! It's also, IIRC one of the examples given as a potential build in a genre book. It's pretty expensive for what you get through: probably better to spend the points on a duplication damage shield, so you duplicate every time they hit you

 

cheers, Mark

[Utech]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Another character targeted by this ability needs to win a STR vs. STR contest to lift his legs (or move any other part of his body) when they are in contact with a surface.

 

I find this fascinating. I fully understand -- and appreciate! -- your argument, but I'm still not sure I buy it.

 

Please keep in mind that the power description 5ER page 143 says:

If another character wants to pull a Clinging character from a surface, he must exceed the character's total Clinging STR in a STR Versus STR Contest; otherwise the character remains stuck.

 

The emphasis is, of course, mine. Furthermore, Clinging is a Constant power. 5ER page 99:

Once a character has established a Constant Power, he can't alter the effect he established (unless the specific rules for a Power say otherwise).

 

The Power description for Clinging says nothing about needing to turn off the ability to use full STR to "stick" to the surface in order to move freely! Once a character turns off a Constant power, in fact, he must use an attack action to turn it back on. This clearly precludes the "turn the power off and on with every step along the wall" notion.

 

It seems to me, then, that once Clinging is activated I:

• cling to walls
  
• move on them as if they were level at my normal ground movement speed (halved when moving up a surface)
  
• use my full STR to "stick" to the surface whenever some other character tries to pry me from it
  
• subtract 1d6 from Knockback rolls

without any need to turn the power on and off or otherwise alter the effect, regardless of whether it was my intention to activate the power or no!

 

Successfully attacking a target with Clinging UAA would (again, my opinion) give the attacker the ability to say, "You now must cling to surfaces! You can move on them as if they were level at your normal ground movement -- that's out of my control. You must use your full STR to "stick" to any wall you touch. That won't stop you moving along or up the wall, but it will prevent people from prying you off. In order to leave the surface -- Leap or Fly, for example -- you'll need to overcome your full STR in a STR Versus STR contest. Further, you must subtract 1d6 from any Knockback rolls you make."

 

This, to me, is a very weird power. But that's not my fault.

 

Clearly other people hold opinions that differ from mine. Cheers! I suppose I can see your point. I hope you can see mine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd agree that both of these are valid builds and I'd agree that the TK is actually cheaper in this case (though perhaps slightly less useful since as built you can't stick people to anything except surfaces, which makes it fair enough). I can't see either one as abusive, so .... ahhhh .... is there a problem here? 'Cause I'm still not seeing it.

 

I'd certainly give the hairy eyeball to any UAA power that appeared to duplicate an existing power more cheaply. However, if someone wants to duplicate an existing power more expensively, well, as long as they do so in an informed fashion, that's OK with me.

 

Unless I misunderstand you, you've just done an end-run around your own argument

 

cheers, Mark

 

Sometimes I just have at arguments because they are there: doesn't matter who they belong to

 

In this case though, no, I don't think so. The real cost and the active point cost both have to be taken into consideration and, to my mind, the active point cost is a far better measure of utility, the one you should really be keeping an eye on. The clinging UAA can muster 70 STR in 60 active points, and it only gets worse in more powerful campaigns because of the 3:1 cost ratio for additional strength.

 

Couple that with the fact that you are simply building an existing power (albeit a limited version of an existing power) with a power construct involving a STOP sign (and let us not forget they are there for a reason), and I think the cost argument stands firm.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I assume you're talking about Clinging UAA preventing the target from moving along the surface... because Clinging very clearly talks about preventing moving off the surface. "Against your will" turns into "against the power user's will" because of the UAA. So effectively Clinging UAA will make it so someone can't move off the surface w/o a successful STR vs STR roll.

 

Absolutely: UAA clinging can prevent you leaving a surface. It is a good way (at least mechanically) to, for instance, prevent someone flying or leaping up into the air, but it does not control (or allow another to control) movement ON the surface.

 

 

 

Well what about that rule (unwritten? I think it's somewhere in the book' date=' not sure) about not "hacking" powers to have them simulate others? The reason why you don't buy HA, Ranged, Can't Add STR... you buy EB. You're using a custom limitation ("Only to hold a target in palce against a surface") on a power, rather than using a pre-existing Advantage on another power.[/quote']

 

Indeed.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Even if it is10 STR' date=' because +3 STR for clinging is 1 point, you spend 60 points (10 for clinging +20 for +60 STR and the whole thing UAA +1) you have a 70 STR 'cling' for 60 points - far more than, say TK could manage. Far more effective than an englobing FW or an equivalent entangle.[/quote']

I don't see a problem here. This is a 60 Active Point power, like a 12d6 EB or a 4d6 RKA. It sticks someone to a surface, making it harder, not impossible, for them to move. They still get their full OCV and DCV, and can still attack and use all their other powers. And they can still Teleport, breaking the "cling".

 

I would probably also allow movement powers (especially those already in use at the time of the Clinging UAA being used) to add to the target's STR for purposes of overcoming the Clinging STR, the same way inches of Flight can be used for STR for lifting. IOW, when you try to stick the Flash to the ground, you have to not only overcome the STR of his legs, but also the momentum that he already has while you're trying to stick him. I don't remember what the Flight-STR rule is off hand, something like each 2" of Flight adds 1 STR, or something like that.

 

The moer dice you roll' date=' the closer you tend to average figures, and 2d6 is quite a lot when you are rolling either 8d6 or 10d6.[/quote']

NO! Not this again! Well, in this case it seems we're talking about STR-vs-STR rolls, in which just the BODY is counted. Let's see what the results are:

 

1d6 rolls the average of 1 BODY 2/3 of the time.

2d6 rolls the average of 2 BODY 1/2 of the time.

3d6 rolls the average of 3 BODY 11/27 (88/216) of the time.

4d6 rolls the average of 4 BODY 434/1296 (~1/3) of the time.

etc.

 

The more dice you roll, the *less* likely you are to roll average.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I was only using special effect to help illustrate the point that UAA gives the owner of the power it purchased with complete control of its effect. Walking along a vertical or horizontal surface with Clinging requires control of the power which in the case of it being forced on someone by way of UAA they do not have.

 

You are attempting to nerf UAA by a round about argument vs. cost instead of actually making a logical argument against the way it works.

 

Now I'll be the first to admit that this could be an abusive ability (just like any UAA power). Like NND, UAA effectively demands that a common defense be defined on the power it is applied to.

 

 

With respect (I love that phrase) you are not accepting my argument about what the power says, so there is little point in repeating it ad nauseam. I was trying to make the point that that is not the only string on the bow: there are lots of reasons why this power shouldn't be allowed, in the form that is proposed.

 

So, back to that sfx question I asked...

[Tonio]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

The Power description for Clinging says nothing about needing to turn off the ability to use full STR to "stick" to the surface in order to move freely! Once a character turns off a Constant power, in fact, he must use an attack action to turn it back on. This clearly precludes the "turn the power off and on with every step along the wall" notion.

 

It seems to me, then, that once Clinging is activated I:

• cling to walls
  
• move on them as if they were level at my normal ground movement speed (halved when moving up a surface)
  
• use my full STR to "stick" to the surface whenever some other character tries to pry me from it
  
• subtract 1d6 from Knockback rolls

without any need to turn the power on and off or otherwise alter the effect, regardless of whether it was my intention to activate the power or no!

 

Successfully attacking a target with Clinging UAA would (again, my opinion) give the attacker the ability to say, "You now must cling to surfaces! You can move on them as if they were level at your normal ground movement -- that's out of my control. You must use your full STR to "stick" to any wall you touch. That won't stop you moving along or up the wall, but it will prevent people from prying you off. In order to leave the surface -- Leap or Fly, for example -- you'll need to overcome your full STR in a STR Versus STR contest. Further, you must subtract 1d6 from any Knockback rolls you make."

 

This, to me, is a very weird power. But that's not my fault.

 

Clearly other people hold opinions that differ from mine. Cheers! I suppose I can see your point. I hope you can see mine.

 

Hm... well, since Clinging is not a Movement Power, I'm gonna hafta agree it won't stop you from moving along the surface when Used As Attack, for the same reason it can't be used to move you along the surface.

 

By the way, you don't overcome your full STR in a STR vs STR contest. You overcome the full Clinging STR, which is 10 plus whatever's been bought, not the target's plus whatever's been bought. The target isn't Clinging with his/her STR, but with the Power's. And the Power's base STR is 10 when bought UAA.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Bit of an aside, really, but if I have the power 'clinging' defined, say, as a personal gravity field that makes me 'sling' to whatever surface I'm on (OK, I know I could do this with a limited form of flight, and probably do it better, but we have clinging and that is what I'm using).

 

I an on a beach, standing on sand. My clinging is turned on (assume I'm 50 STR, for the purposes of this). Someone wants to pick me up, and I say I want to use clinging to resist that: what does my 30 STR opponent need to roll to actually hoist me into the air?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I don't recall this change. I'll double-check myself when I get home.

 

Well, I was sorta right, and sorta wrong. The base power does give the ability to use the character's normal STR to cling. But under "Useable On Others", it modifies that by saying that in this case it becomes a flat 10 STR.

 

The only reason I can conceive of for this change when using UOO is to "balance" UAA uses. From that, I then conclude that when used with UAA it does prevent the target from moving unless they win a STR vs. STR contest.

 

It is IMO the best way to model "Hero-Sized Flypaper".

[Tonio]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Bit of an aside, really, but if I have the power 'clinging' defined, say, as a personal gravity field that makes me 'sling' to whatever surface I'm on (OK, I know I could do this with a limited form of flight, and probably do it better, but we have clinging and that is what I'm using).

 

I an on a beach, standing on sand. My clinging is turned on (assume I'm 50 STR, for the purposes of this). Someone wants to pick me up, and I say I want to use clinging to resist that: what does my 30 STR opponent need to roll to actually hoist me into the air?

 

Dunno, given that you're standing on sand, which I'd say has no DEF, only BODY (unless it's packed sand?), then anything above 0 BODY (getting all 1s on his STR dice) would hoist you up along with some sand.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Bit of an aside, really, but if I have the power 'clinging' defined, say, as a personal gravity field that makes me 'sling' to whatever surface I'm on (OK, I know I could do this with a limited form of flight, and probably do it better, but we have clinging and that is what I'm using).

 

I an on a beach, standing on sand. My clinging is turned on (assume I'm 50 STR, for the purposes of this). Someone wants to pick me up, and I say I want to use clinging to resist that: what does my 30 STR opponent need to roll to actually hoist me into the air?

 

I would say that since the surface you are standing on is not a solid piece, he'd only need to lift you, since the sand "breaks" with no appreciable force. Pretty much like if you were treading water.

 

The game does recognize that not all "hard" surfaces are created equal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to agree. That is a little odd, perhaps...it seems that the power of clinging is specifically one of adhesion, which would mean, for instance, that the 'gravity' sfx that I'd posited would be completely inappropriate. HyperMan was right, I think: this is a power built for an sfx. Weird (not that HM was right - that's not weird at all )

 

This could be done a lot better, couldn't it?

 

The more I think about it the more I'm thinking that we should get rid of clinging altogether, and replace it with, perhaps, a limited form of flight (and if you want KBR then you either brace with the flight or buy it).

[Tonio]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Why a power built for an SFX? I mean, I understand how initially they might've thought about Spiderman when they made Clinging, but the mechanics seem to be well defined and SFX-independent. Gravity SFX is appropriate, I think. You're simply "sticking" to a sheet of sand, which gets "broken off" the rest of the sand easily. Imagine your character being lifted off the ground with a block of sand, shaped like the extension of your Gravity Field, stuck to his feet. He's still firmly attached to it (assuming the lifter didn't overcome the STR of the field), but it got broken off. Some sort of glue SFX would behave the same. So would a TK SFX (bear in mind Clinging with TK SFX would have you "grabbing" the surface with TK, not "pushing yourself onto" the surface). Etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to take your word for it being balanced in play: it looks to me that a combination of this power and even a rudimentary tactical approach could be devastating - even adding in range, you can muster 52 STR (assuming you start at 10) and, unlike entangle or FW there is no obvious way to escape the power apart from brute strength. You can say the same of TK, but for the same active points, you can only manage 40 STR. That is a big difference.

 

In addition, because it is a cheap power to start with, adding in AOE, for example, is pretty cheap too: you can manage over 30 STR with a radius AoE! Even more devastating might be to add 'Sticky'...

 

Moreover, and far more fundamentally, you are changing what the power does. Clinging allows the person using it (whether they want to use it or not) to move about freely on any surface, even a vertical or upside down one. One specific prohibition with UAA is imposing a limited form of a power, so you can't increase someone's density without increasing their strength and you can't force clinging on them but take away their ability to move about on the surface they are clinging to.

 

I agree with this. Putting aside whether UAA Clinging is valid, balanced, or fair, you still come down to the fundamental disconnect of UAA Clinging potentially behaving completely differently than the base power.

 

Normally Clinging primarily FACILITATES movement. Yes it can also prevent a character from being moved against their will, but it does so to BENEFIT the character, not PENALIZE them.

 

Adding UAA to that reverse the effect so that it PREVENTS movement?

 

 

I also object to it on a reason from effects / mechanical basis. Entangle's primary purpose is to prevent movement; that's the most appropriate mechanic for such an effect. TK can also prevent movement in a resisted STR vs STR scenario making it a good second option if you want that approach. Even if allowed Clinging UAA adds nothing to this mechanically.

 

I would not allow it.

 

I'm also not fond of the Damage Shield Tar Baby approach. I personally think Clinging is not the right approach for that either. Damage Shield is appropriate for powers that are intended to be used as Attacks.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

The clinging-to-sand example is a fine illustration of the inherent limitation on clinging. If you're "Clinging" to a surface of sand, such as a beach, there should be no real difficulty in picking you up or knocking you back.

 

And the same thing applies to any surface: The strength of clinging is limited by the strength of the surface. If you're clinging to a concrete wall, you should be in pretty good shape, but if you're clinging to a old, rotten, termite-infested wooden wall, you might be easily dislodged - not by overcoming the strength of your Clinging, but by overcoming the "strength" of the wall (in game terms, I'd call this the DEF of the wall). So sure, you're technically still Clinging - you've got bits of splintered wood still stuck to your feet, or grains of sand, or a thin sheet of ice, or whatever.

 

To get a guy off a wall, you can pull him off, or you can break the wall.

 

"There's more than one way to skin a cat, but they're all fun." - Greg Lobb

[Tonio]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I agree with this. Putting aside whether UAA Clinging is valid, balanced, or fair, you still come down to the fundamental disconnect of UAA Clinging potentially behaving completely differently than the base power.

 

Normally Clinging primarily FACILITATES movement. Yes it can also prevent a character from being moved against their will, but it does so to BENEFIT the character, not PENALIZE them.

 

Adding UAA to that reverse the effect so that it PREVENTS movement?

 

Well, the whole point of UAA is using a power that normally benefits the user to penalize an opponent. Normally, clinging to a surface helps you: you can climb walls, walk along ceilings, etc. When controlled by someone else (i.e. UAA), it can hinder you: you can't STOP clinging, so you can't jump off that wall you were climbing, drop from the ceiling, etc.

 

It's not behaving differently from the base power at all. It's just under someone else's control; you can no longer turn it off or direct it as desired.

 

I also object to it on a reason from effects / mechanical basis. Entangle's primary purpose is to prevent movement; that's the most appropriate mechanic for such an effect. TK can also prevent movement in a resisted STR vs STR scenario making it a good second option if you want that approach. Even if allowed Clinging UAA adds nothing to this mechanically.

 

I believe it does. Entangle would have to be limited considerably (to allow normal bodily movement (not Movement), to only work against targets touching a surface, and maybe to allow Movement along the surface, depending on the interpretation), and custom advantaged (only breakable with a STR vs STR contest) to simulate the concept. TK is closer, but would behave somewhat differently, since you'd have to "grab" the target to the surface he's touching, something TK doesn't currently do. Note this is different from "pushing" the target against the surface, or holding him in place, since it allows you to break off the surface and move it along with the target without "breaking" the power.

 

Clinging UAA is a distinct effect, with similarities to both Entangle and TK, but different enough to merit building it like that instead of heavily modifying other powers. Again, don't do "HA, Ranged, Can't add STR", do "EB".

[Adventus]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Clinging prevents you being removed against your will from a surface. I can see nothing that says it prevents movement. Mind you I've said that.

 

I see the idea of this use as analogous to someone who buys UAA LS: Self contained breathing and wants to use that to suffocate someone. It is not what it is for. It is not what it does. That, you understand, is what I see. You can do anything you like, and I may well be in a minority here.

 

One more attempt to convince: why would you want to build it this way?

 

Compare:

 

SUPER GLUE:

 

40 STR TK: only to hold a target in place against a surface (-1), no range (-1/2) 24 points

 

40 STR clinging (10+ 30) for 20 points and UAA +1 for 40 points.

 

So the clinging option is more expensive, in terms of real points. Mechanically it does the same: 40 STR to hold you in place against a surface, so no difference there. The only difference I can see is in terms of active points, and therefore maximum effect you can get in under any campaign limits. So, a meta-game reason, pure and simple. That's the strongest argument I can present.

 

You forgot you need to buy ranged on the clinging to be able to use it at range. TK is already a ranged attack. This will have the effect of increasing the cost of the clinging build

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Well' date=' the whole point of UAA is using a power that normally benefits the user to penalize an opponent.[/quote']

No, the whole point of UAA is using the MECHANIC of a power that normally affects you to affect someone else IN THE SAME WAY as it would have affected you, whether they want it to or not.

 

(A secondary usage of UAA is to take an AoE power that normally would affect an area and attach it to a person, again with no change in the functionality of the mechanic, but thats not really relevant here).

 

Normal UAA:

Teleport: You move from location A to location B without crossing the intervening hexes.

Teleport UAA: You move a target from location A to location B without crossing the intervening hexes...whether they want to or not.

 

Growth: You get bigger, gaining a collection of beneficial and penalizing effects

Growth UAA: You make someone else get bigger, gaining a collection of beneficial and penalizing effects...whether they want to or not.

 

As opposed to:

Clinging: You are able to use your surface based movement without penalty on surfaces other than flat ground. You are able to resist being pulled off whatever surface you are currently attached to.

Clinging UAA: You make someone else root in place...whether they want to or not.

 

The actual MECHANICAL effect is being ALTERED by the application of UAA, which is not normal.

 

Normally, clinging to a surface helps you: you can climb walls, walk along ceilings, etc. When controlled by someone else (i.e. UAA), it can hinder you: you can't STOP clinging, so you can't jump off that wall you were climbing, drop from the ceiling, etc.

 

It's not behaving differently from the base power at all. It's just under someone else's control; you can no longer turn it off or direct it as desired.

 

Actually, this isn't how Clinging works -- there is no detrimental effect of Clinging. It doesnt prevent someone from leaving the surface of something, it allows them to attach to a surface they normally wouldn't be allowed to.

 

By a strict interpretation of the rules, at worst UAA Clinging would just grant the power of Clinging to someone while the granter is paying END to maintain it or until the granter chooses to turn it off (UBO on the other hand leaves the turning off under the control of the granted vs the grantee). Clinging doesn't even cost END, so its already of dubious legality out of the gate.

 

 

I believe it does. Entangle would have to be limited considerably (to allow normal bodily movement (not Movement), to only work against targets touching a surface, and maybe to allow Movement along the surface, depending on the interpretation), and custom advantaged (only breakable with a STR vs STR contest) to simulate the concept. TK is closer, but would behave somewhat differently, since you'd have to "grab" the target to the surface he's touching, something TK doesn't currently do. Note this is different from "pushing" the target against the surface, or holding him in place, since it allows you to break off the surface and move it along with the target without "breaking" the power.

 

Clinging UAA is a distinct effect, with similarities to both Entangle and TK, but different enough to merit building it like that instead of heavily modifying other powers.

 

Its no more of an invalid use of Entangle than Handcuffs are. Entangles can take many different forms; the net effect is that they prevent movement.

 

Also, I forgot to mention it previously, but Change Environment can also work against movement, though its very expensive and difficult to cover all bases in a superheroic setting where movement rates tend to be very high. It's a third option at any rate, and another one that is innately intended to affect others negatively as well.

 

 

Bottom line for me, if you choose to allow it in your game thats your business. I choose not to allow it in mine.