STR discussion

[RadeFox]

From the Thread Yamo started about plate mail being overly effective, I saw an interesting idea. Keeping in mind the core rule for Hero, the more USEFUL something is, the MORE points you pay. A Disad that never come into play, you get 0 pts. DEX, used for loads of stuff, you pay 3 per 1. The idea briefly posed and lost in the thread was this:

 

STR could cost 2 pts per 1 STR bought.

 

Thinking on how MUCH more useful in a FH setting STR is (Not too mention its cascade effect into secondary stats!), then in just about any other setting, I sort of like this idea. So I put it forth to all us assembled Hero players and GM's, what do you think of this idea, bearing in mind the 'spirit of Hero' rules ideas.

[Derek Hiemforth]

This is an extremely old, well-worn, and controversial idea, with embittered, battle-scarred veterans on each side of the issue, climbing towers and taking hostages.

 

Well, okay, maybe it's not quite THAT bad. But it's close.

 

Just trying to give you an idea of what you're in for, RadeFox.

 

In a nutshell, STR makes more sense mathematically at 1.5 pts. or 2 pts. per point of STR, and for heroic-level games, it's probably more play-balanced at that cost as well. However, many (most?) people don't want it changed, because it disrupts many other cost relationships in the system, makes older material harder to use, makes software harder to use, etc.

 

Let the bloodshed commence.

[sbarron]

It was a hassle, and it took some leaning on my part, but I now have a HD template with Str costing 2 for 1. I haven't decided whether I will ever go with it or not, but I like the idea. We'll see...

[Old Man]

I am firmly of the opinion that STR should cost at least 2 per pt., if not 3, particularly in heroic-level games. In Champions STR is already too undercosted; in FH it also determines your melee and ranged damage and (in FREd) your rPD. Right now STR is so cheap that it makes absolutely no sense not to buy it; even "wimpy" mages gain nothing from selling it back.

[GamePhil]

Oh, it's that bad. I think enough people are tired of it to let it drop, though.

 

It is a more complex issue than it first appears, or it used to be. It's akin to giving you an EC of abilities: you get a cost break for having a tight concept, the cost break being built into the rules. So its cost never bothered me back then.

 

Now that EC's have restrictions, it bothers me a bit: no one else has access to the same unrestricted cost break that STR gives you (there's more to that, including some opinions on when to use the restrictions and when not to, but that's not topical). So, I could see circumstances that would warrant increasing its cost. But I also see circumstances where it should not increase, and 4 points per point over 20 seems excessive to me.

 

I like the idea of adding a Usefulness Advantage/Limitation to the game. If STR is particularly effective, give it a +1 Advantage, and like that. That would be sufficient to cover my needs.

 

Anyway, enough of my babbling. Good luck, and keep your head down.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Old Man

even "wimpy" mages gain nothing from selling it back.

 

I can make great use of the 2 points gained from having an 8 STR while losing nothing I actually want, personally.

[Yamo]

Is STR too expensive?

 

Well, it's hard to look at a complete breakdown of what a one-point investment in STR nets you and not conclude that you're getting a lot more than one point's worth of effectiveness.

 

Personally, I think one-point STR is the Champions legacy holding HERO as a whole back as a universal system. STR costs 1/1 because STR always cost 1/1. But really, the supers genre is the really the only one where players are going to need to generate Superman and Incredible Hulk clones on a regular basis with limited point totals. Better to just make them pay a lot of points for a lot of effectiveness than to nerf all the other genres by making STR cheaper than dirt.

 

My hope is that Hero Games will do the right thing for 6th Edition and realize that a slight loss of backwards compatability and inconvienience to Champions brick fans (who, incidentally, would still have a VERY viable and powerful character concept on their hands) is more than worth it to sand this most annoying of warts off the system and make the game the best it can be in the here and now. Legacy concepts can be a good thing, but they can also mire you in the mistakes of the past if you don't have the courage to hold them to strict standards of contemporary usefulness at all times.

 

I don't think 1/1 STR is an asset to the system as a whole.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

Well, it's hard to look at a complete breakdown of what a one-point investment in STR nets you and not conclude that you're getting a lot more than one point's worth of effectiveness.

A 1 point investment in STR nets you... +1 STUN. That is really all you get out of it. It gives you no extra damage, no extra defense, no extra recovery. Just +1 STUN. Oh yeah, you get to pick up 20 more kilos too.

[Yamo]

A 1 point investment in STR nets you... +1 STUN. That is really all you get out of it. It gives you no extra damage, no extra defense, no extra recovery. Just +1 STUN. Oh yeah, you get to pick up 20 more kilos too.

 

A wiseguy, eh? Why I oughta...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

But really, the supers genre is the really the only one where players are going to need to generate Superman and Incredible Hulk clones on a regular basis with limited point totals.

Ever here of characters like Samson? Heracles? Theseus? Sir Gwaine? Many classic fantasy characters have super-human strength. I could name equally similar characters for the pulp genre. Superhuman strength is not just a comic book concept.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Yamo

My hope is that Hero Games will do the right thing for 6th Edition

 

That's certainly my hope. We may have a difference of opinion on the details, though

[Monolith]

Personally, I would rather see Figured Characteristics divorced from Primary Characteristics before I would want to see STR increased to 2 points. That would seem to make more sense to me in the overall.

[Yamo]

Ever here of characters like Samson? Heracles? Theseus? Sir Gwaine?

 

Well, obviously if your GM is having you make up Greek demigods and other characters from myth and legend as PCs, he's going to be allowing you Champions-level point totals. So, as has been shown multiple times in these debates, the brick concept is still perfectly viable (and STRONG) with those kinds of point totals, even at 2/1 cost. Nice try, though.

 

Again, the problem is Heroic games. Cheap STR is only a problem when you're dealing with relatively low (say 150 or less) point total characters. If you're building Superman, Heracles and Doc Savage wannabes, you'll have more than enough points to make them properly buff, even at a 2/1 STR cost.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith

Ever here of characters like Samson? Heracles? Theseus? Sir Gwaine? Many classic fantasy characters have super-human strength. I could name equally similar characters for the pulp genre. Superhuman strength is not just a comic book concept.

 

Of course it isn't. But the way STR costs right now, half the party is going to have superhuman strength because it is without question the most combat effectiveness you can buy for ten points, unless you are playing a mage.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

Well, obviously if your GM is having you make up Greek demigods and other characters from myth and legend as PCs, he's going to be allowing you Champions-level point totals. So, as has been shown multiple times in these debates, the brick concept is still perfectly viable (and STRONG) with those kinds of point totals, even at 2/1 cost. Nice try, though.

My GM does not limit character concepts in any fashion. If you can build it on 150 points you can pretty much have it. The whole point of the HERO System is to be able to play the types of characters you want to play, not limit yourself to a simple class system of play.

 

I do not play much Fantasy Hero (not a huge fantasy fan) but I have played in games which included a demi-god and a hero who was dipped in the River Styx. If you can dream it, you should be allowed to do it.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by GamePhil

I can make great use of the 2 points gained from having an 8 STR while losing nothing I actually want, personally.

 

I can make just as good use out of the 2 points I gained by selling off one point of STR and one point of STUN, personally. Better, if the STR mins don't come down on the breakpoints.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Old Man

Of course it isn't. But the way STR costs right now, half the party is going to have superhuman strength because it is without question the most combat effectiveness you can buy for ten points, unless you are playing a mage.

Maybe in the games that you play, but in the games I play players build their characters based on character concept, not power-crunching. Our TE game, for example, has 1 character with a 20 STR (the Heavy), 2 characters with a 15 STR (a Mon'dabi and a Catavalan), 1 character with a 13 STR (the captain), and 2 characters with 10 STR. No one was in a mad rush to buy STR because it is point-effective.

[Yamo]

The whole point of the HERO System is to be able to play the types of characters you want to play, not limit yourself to a simple class system of play.

 

Yes, but if the character you want to play is essentially a superhero or a demigod, I fail to see why you should feel you have a right to be able to build him with 150 points or less, even it it means making his primary ability (STR) radically undercosted and every other character in the campign with a different concept drastically less effective.

 

You can do whatever you want in HERO, but you should still get what you pay for, no less and certainly no more.

 

Maybe in the games that you play, but in the games I play players build their characters based on character concept, not power-crunching.

 

Unfair.

 

The players just want to be treated fairly by the system; for their X points to "spend" just like the next guy's and buy them a corresponding level of effectiveness at whatever their specialty is.

 

It's not fair to accuse a player of twinking or cast aspersions on his roleplaying ability just because he wants equal ability under the system when compared to a character with the same number of points and an arbitrarily undercosted schtick.

 

That is not unreasonable. It's basic fairness.

[Lord Liaden]

I've used STR at 1/1 for superheroic games, and 2/1 for heroic level games for many years, and been very satisfied with it. The only problem would come from character creation software, which with my still being a pen-and-paper character sheet dinosaur, has never been an issue for me. If we could come up with character software that had the option of changing the cost of Characteristics, the issue might be less controversial. Still, published heroic characters rarely have enough STR to make changing the cost for my campaign difficult.

 

For superheroic campaigns, I like that five points of STR does 1D6 damage, and uses 1 END per 10 AP, just like other offensive Powers. All the other benefits of STR compensate for the fact that STR has no Range (other than throwing things, which has its own limitations) and cannot be spread. It's not a perfect balance, but IMHO it's close enough to fit within the conventions of the genre.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Old Man

Of course it isn't. But the way STR costs right now, half the party is going to have superhuman strength because it is without question the most combat effectiveness you can buy for ten points, unless you are playing a mage.

 

I'll question it. I can easily imagine campaigns where that is categorically not true. Energy weapons and force fields have been invented: I'll take my 5 levels with Death Ray over the 10 STR. A game where stealth and covert action win the day rather than brute force (if you get hit, your dead, it doesn't matter how tough you are: you have to sneak up on the enemy). Mental powers based games. And so on.

 

It's universal. There are always going to be times when any point of view is in error.

 

The point: this is a complex issue with no clear cut answer. I'd just want flexibility. I don't really mind if the cost were to go up. I also don't see the need for it. As long as an easy adjustment is added, I'm golden. Probably not a good material to be made out of for defense, though.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Old Man

I can make just as good use out of the 2 points I gained by selling off one point of STR and one point of STUN, personally. Better, if the STR mins don't come down on the breakpoints.

 

Well, actually the character I was referring to also sold back several points of END, and therefore couldn't sell back Stun. But what he *could* do was sell back another, useless, point of STR without losing anything but that self-same point.

 

Hello, I'm gamephil, and I am a powergamer.

 

But, as you prefer. Since you were the one saying that even mages wouldn't sell the points back, I fail to see how this statement supports your initial claim.

 

It is a good discussion so far, though.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Monolith

Maybe in the games that you play, but in the games I play players build their characters based on character concept, not power-crunching.

 

Now, now, Mono, nothing wrong with power-crunching. Get the most bang for your buck, I say.

 

I just disagree that STR is consistently the way to do it, and, inasmuch as the most effective thing to buy is based on concept, I can agree with you.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

It's not fair to accuse a player of twinking or cast aspersions on his roleplaying ability just because he wants equal ability under the system when compared to a character with the same number of points and an arbitrarily undercosted schtick.

As I stated in the other thread, the HERO System does not guarantee equality just because two characters are built on the same point totals. D&D does not guarantee equality with all characters starting out at 1st level either. It is only the players who have some false delusion that everything must be equal. One player, for example, buying 10 Levels with Sword is going to be much tougher than another character who spends those 30 points on a 30 STR (10 levels with sword equals +5 DC added to an attack). There is no equality when just looking at point totals.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Now, now, Mono, nothing wrong with power-crunching. Get the most bang for your buck, I say.

In a game where the rules state that the most expensive way to buy something is the correct way, power-crunching must be bad.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Monolith

In a game where the rules state that the most expensive way to buy something is the correct way, power-crunching must be bad.

 

Most expensive of two equally valid ways. So, as long as your crunching valid powers, it's good.