Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

[Kevin Schultz]

This came up when attempting to model a "helpful" Familiar for a demonic-based PC:

 

Follower: Familiar

Hunted: Familiar (8-, Less Powerful, Minor harm, Hero easy to find)

This represents the fact that the familiar is available at all times and will do what the character asks, but about 1/3 of the time it will be off doing things which it THINKS is helpful, but in fact is definitely not what the PC wants done.

 

Can these be combined into a single advantage/disadvantage, or should the PC consider them separate entities? Obviously, "With GM Permission...", but I thought there was a discussion of it in one of the books...

[psychoticbarber]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

I don't have the Hero-System-Fu to help you out, but I wanted to say I think this is an awesome idea, and I definitely want to see how it plays out.

[Fitz]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

I think the Disad to use would be DNPC -- as far as I can tell, that disad's main function is to get the PC into trouble one way or another.

[Lucius]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

I don't think it's endorsed in any official product.

 

I think I would allow what you're talking about (if I understand it) especially if it pertains to something "seperable" from the character. An Independent Focus for example, like a Base or Vehicle, may have Disads attached (Hunted by people who want it; Cursed with Unluck; etc.) that go with it if another character acquires it, and are lost along with it if a character loses the item.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert palindromedary tagline here

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

I think the Disad to use would be DNPC -- as far as I can tell' date=' that disad's main function is to get the PC into trouble one way or another.[/quote']

 

This is the route I would go, as well; but depending on precisely how you want it defined, Hunted could also work. OTOH you could forego putting it on the main character's sheet altogether, and just give the Follower a Disadvantage like "Likes To Meddle In Boss's Affairs."

[caris]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

This came up when attempting to model a "helpful" Familiar for a demonic-based PC:

 

Follower: Familiar

Hunted: Familiar (8-, Less Powerful, Minor harm, Hero easy to find)

This represents the fact that the familiar is available at all times and will do what the character asks, but about 1/3 of the time it will be off doing things which it THINKS is helpful, but in fact is definitely not what the PC wants done.

 

Can these be combined into a single advantage/disadvantage, or should the PC consider them separate entities? Obviously, "With GM Permission...", but I thought there was a discussion of it in one of the books...

 

OK, if you mean can they be written on the sheet based on the net cost of the Perk and the Disadvantage. I would not allow it. To modify the Perk you would have to apply a Limitation (either Custom or Side Effect), but I generally do not allow Limitations on Perks as a GM. I do not believe the rules specifically disallow the process, though.

 

For the situation you are describing, I would have been inclined to make it either a Follower or a DNPC. I'd talk with the Player and determine if it was going to be more helpful or harmful to the PC. If helpful, I build it as the follower using the other stuff to fill in the Follower's Disads. If harmful, I would build it as a DNPC with the useful skills modifier.

 

Having the Familiar as both a Perk and a Disadvantage, would not have occured to me. My first instinct would have been to say it had to be one or the other. Until I realized that I would have allowed a PC to take a Contact or a Membership, and use the same Characters or Organizations for Hunteds, Rivals, Social Limitations, etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

I would allow both, but like others I would make the Disadvantage a DNPC.

 

Hunted implies something you want to avoid coming after you.

DNPC applies you having to go after someone, or that someone can be used in a way that is detrimental to you.

 

I'd also give the Imp a Psychological Limitation Disadvantage: Easily Persuaded Of Bosses "Needs" - a version of Gullible. People can trick him into doing something by convincing him his boss wants or needs it done.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

From my website:

 

 

Animal Companions, Steeds, Cohorts, Henchmen, Familiars

 

Some Characters have followers or companions that can be quite capable Characters in their own right. For the most part if such a secondary Character is unique or special compared to the norm, the Player Character should pay for them using the Follower Perk in the HERO System. However, there are options. Not all "followers" or "companions" need necessarily be bought using the Follower Perk.

 

FOLLOWERS PERK

The most straightforward (and expensive) method is to simply buy them using the appropriately named Followers Perk. Considering the mythical worth of Honor among Thieves, this is probably the safest option for a Thief with hanger-on's, as followers are much less likely to backstab you. This is the method to use for a cohort or similar.

FOLLOWERS AS FOLLOWER PERK EXAMPLES

Couple of Followers: 2 Followers (Base 50, Max Disadvantages 75)

Real Cost: 15 Points

Bunch of Followers: 128 Followers (Base 50, Max Disadvantages 75)

Real Cost: 45 Points

 

TREAT THEM AS STORY ELEMENTS

The GM might be persuaded to treat some Followers that don't really do anything for the Character directly as Story Elements completely under their own control.

FOLLOWERS AS STORY ELEMENTS

GM Puppets: The NPCs who currently like me

Real Cost: 0 Points

 

IGNORE THEM

Similarly, if you have nominal Followers associated with your Character but they don't actually do anything for them, then don't worry about them; they are likely just background flavor.

FOLLOWERS AS BACKGROUND ELEMENTS

Stray NPC's: Stand ins and extras

Real Cost: 0 Points

 

ORGANIZATION CONTACTS

If your Followers just hang out "back at the guild quarters" or "back at the fortress" or the like, and you only communicate with them when you need something, then the GM might let you buy them as Contacts. This might also work out for some more autonomous "knowledge workers" like snitches, fences, and procurers.

FOLLOWERS AS CONTACTS

My Peon Peeps: Contact (Contact has: useful Skills or resources, Very Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (+2) (18 Active Points) 12-

Real Cost: 18 Points

 

DEPENDENT NPCs

If your Followers mostly just get in the way and/or force you to take action to fix their problems, defend them, pay them, save them from rampaging dragons and the like, they are probably DNPC's. However, because a massive Disadvantage can accrue quickly from this, most GM's would probably want to put a logical limit on it. This sort of "Follower" is solidly in the GM's purview for deciding when they are helpful (rarely) and when they are troublesome (more often).

FOLLOWERS AS DNPC's -- BAD EXAMPLE

Too many Points and too reoccurring: Dependent NPC: Followers 8- (Incompetent; Group DNPC: x64 DNPCs; Useful non-combat position or skills)

Real Cost: -40 points

FOLLOWERS AS DNPC's -- GOOD EXAMPLE

About Right: Dependent NPC: Followers 5- (Incompetent; Group DNPC: "a bunch of DNPCs"; Useful non-combat position or skills)

Real Cost: -25 points

 

BUY YOUR FRIENDS

Money can buy you friends....until it runs out. The GM may allow you to convert some or all of your Followers into hirelings, who are paid for in gold rather than character points. Since each setting is different, and role-playing could (and should) have a massive impact on this it is difficult to guestimate how much money is appropriate, but a simple rule of the thumb would be the Real Cost of each Follower (treated as an individual) in gold per year.

FOLLOWERS AS HIRELINGS

Friendship Tax: 128 Followers (Base 50, Max Disadvantages 75)

Real Cost: 0 points

Monetary Cost: ~5760 Gold Coins per year

 

A MIX

Depending upon the individual Followers involved for your particular character you can mix it up. Take the useful heist-capable adventuring cohorts as followers, the slack-jawed knee breaker red shirts as hirelings, and the useless comic relief characters the GM is so amused by as Story Elements or DNPC's.

This will generally require additional Character Sheets for each Follower be created, but in some cases a Bestiary reference may be sufficient (such as for some Animal Companions or Steeds). Seek your GM's approval and assistance in creating these Companions and Followers.

 

ANIMALS

Animals deserve special consideration as "Followers".

MUNDANE ANIMALS

In the case of Companions that are just trained animals such as Steeds or some Animal Companions that lack mystical or extraordinary abilities, it should be permissible to buy a generic version using the Bestiary write up (or equivalent), or even a somewhat improved version with money rather than having to take them as Followers.

The monetary cost of an above average animal should be reflective of the their improved nature.

 

MUNDANE BUT EXCEPTIONAL ANIMALS

If a player chooses to take an Animal Companion as a Follower then the GM should afford the player some latitude to distinguish their Companion(s) in an appropriate fashion. The Character is paying points for the privilege, so as long as the upgrades are appropriate to the tone of the campaign, there's no real reason not to allow it.

For instance if a Character were to pay Character Points for a Warhorse, then it would be appropriate for the GM to allow the player to take the Bestiary write up for a Warhorse and personalize it by making their Character's Warhorse extra fast or strong or tough, or what have you.

 

SUPERNATURAL CREATURES AND ANIMALS

Some Animal Companions, Familiars, Paladin Steeds and the like are decidedly not mundane or normal and generally should be taken as Followers using the Follower Perk. Such Companions are often unique or at the very least rare creatures and may have abilities that are quite unusual and powerful. As always the GM has final approval of any such entity converted into the HERO System.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

I would allow both' date=' but like others I would make the Disadvantage a DNPC.[/quote']

 

Hunted vs. DNPC - my thinking was that a DNPC is a plot complication that occurs as a result of things happening to them: getting kidnapped, shot at, etc. The complication then evolves from the PC's attempt to extract the NPC from those circumstances. In contrast, a Hunted's actions are aimed directly at the PC - kidnapping and shooting at the PC, rather than someone else.

 

In this circumstance, the familiar does not get into trouble that the PC has to extract it from; in fact, if it did get into life-threatening danger, the PC would be relieved and would hope for its eventual destruction. Rather, it CAUSES trouble (Like Doctor Smith, from Lost in Space) that the PC has to extract herself from. I do see how, if the relationship between the PC and NPC were different, it could be modeled as a Follower/DNPC, though - just not in this circumstance. (From what I understand of the PC, she's TRIED to get rid of the familiar, but isn't able to.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

Disadvantages, like everything else in the system, are subject to interpretation in the service of modeling what you want.

 

DNPC's are just NPCs that cause the PC problems of some kind that serve as plot hooks. Where you go with it from there is up to you. They don't have to be passive rescue bait if you don't want them to be.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

Hmm... well, in that case this sounds more like a Physical Limitation. Causes problems, can't be gotten rid of. Just set the Frequency and degree of "Impairment" to the frequency and level of trouble you want the familiar to cause.

 

However, I would add that since you're blurring the boundaries of what any of these Limitations are designed to do, IMO what you call it is less important than how much of a Disadvantage it is and how often it affects the character, and using that to set how many Character Points it's worth.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

Hunted vs. DNPC - my thinking was that a DNPC is a plot complication that occurs as a result of things happening to them: getting kidnapped, shot at, etc. The complication then evolves from the PC's attempt to extract the NPC from those circumstances. In contrast, a Hunted's actions are aimed directly at the PC - kidnapping and shooting at the PC, rather than someone else.

 

In this circumstance, the familiar does not get into trouble that the PC has to extract it from; in fact, if it did get into life-threatening danger, the PC would be relieved and would hope for its eventual destruction. Rather, it CAUSES trouble (Like Doctor Smith, from Lost in Space) that the PC has to extract herself from. I do see how, if the relationship between the PC and NPC were different, it could be modeled as a Follower/DNPC, though - just not in this circumstance. (From what I understand of the PC, she's TRIED to get rid of the familiar, but isn't able to.)

 

DNPCs can get themselves into plenty of trouble...

 

the snoopy reporter DNPC following the heroes around.

the curious girlfriend DNPC trying to find out what her boyfriend is up to.

the retired mentor who still thinks he's got a couple years of fight in him and goes out to battle street gangs.

 

There's nothing Passive about a DNPC.

 

Hunted has an implication that the Hero may not even want contact, much less to rescue them. To me at least.

[casualplayer]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

This came up when attempting to model a "helpful" Familiar for a demonic-based PC:

 

Follower: Familiar

Hunted: Familiar (8-, Less Powerful, Minor harm, Hero easy to find)

This represents the fact that the familiar is available at all times and will do what the character asks, but about 1/3 of the time it will be off doing things which it THINKS is helpful, but in fact is definitely not what the PC wants done.

 

Can these be combined into a single advantage/disadvantage, or should the PC consider them separate entities? Obviously, "With GM Permission...", but I thought there was a discussion of it in one of the books...

 

Just sounds to me like the Follower has some Psych Lims, making it relatively cheaper for the character. Impetuous, Easily Distracted, Willful, Selective Hearing, Overeager, etc.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combining Perks/Talents and Disadvantages

 

Just sounds to me like the Follower has some Psych Lims' date=' making it relatively cheaper for the character. Impetuous, Easily Distracted, Willful, Selective Hearing, Overeager, etc.[/quote']

 

Ayup. Repped.