Invisibility Questions

[Cannon_Fodder]

I am trying to make an Assassin character. I have a few questions I think I am doing it right but need to make sure since I am new to the system. I bought Invisibility:

 

Invisibility to Sight Group, Requires Stealth Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; +0), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Only When Not Attacking (-1/2), IAF (Concealed Amulet; -1/2)

 

 

To take advantage of the cost savings (plus it fit the concept) I bought extra Running and Leaping as Power Slots in an EC. Let me see if I got this right: If I use my base Characteristic Running or Leaping it will not break Invisibility, but if I use the Running and Leaping from the Power it will from the Visible Power Effects rule, Quiaff? So to remain Invisible I will need to buy Invisible Power Effects or move the points to the base characteristic.

 

I also have an IIF Concealed Wrist Blade. Since it is already Inobvious I will not need to buy the No Visible Power Effect advantage to use it and stay Invisible, Quiaff?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

1) Running and Leaping won't break the Invisibility, since you're Invis to Sight they still have two other sense groups (nominally sound and touch, both non-targeting) to work with.

 

2) No, the blades will become visible when you attack. If you want them to be Invisible Blades you need Invisible Power Effects for them. IIF just means no one recognizes they're blades (until after stabbed at least) and can't easily remove them from your person.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

I am trying to make an Assassin character. I have a few questions I think I am doing it right but need to make sure since I am new to the system. I bought Invisibility:

 

Invisibility to Sight Group, Requires Stealth Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; +0), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Only When Not Attacking (-1/2), IAF (Concealed Amulet; -1/2)

 

 

To take advantage of the cost savings (plus it fit the concept) I bought extra Running and Leaping as Power Slots in an EC. Let me see if I got this right: If I use my base Characteristic Running or Leaping it will not break Invisibility, but if I use the Running and Leaping from the Power it will from the Visible Power Effects rule, Quiaff? So to remain Invisible I will need to buy Invisible Power Effects or move the points to the base characteristic.

 

Neg. You'll just be burning the END to use additional running/leaping, but since you're not attacking, the Sight Group Invisibility is not threatened. Additionally, IPE does not apply. There are two open-ended ways of looking at IPE, one being the source, and one being the effect itself. IPE does not generally apply to things like running & leaping -- they're already pretty obvious. But since as my brother pointed out, you're still tangible and audible, that's a non issue.

 

I also have an IIF Concealed Wrist Blade. Since it is already Inobvious I will not need to buy the No Visible Power Effect advantage to use it and stay Invisible' date=' [i']Quiaff[/i]?

 

Well, both aff and neg. Because it's an Inobvious, Inaccessible Focus, it is not immediately apparant that it is capable of an attack, and it's inaccessibility (like my HICCoS) means that no one can get to it without a significant amount of work. However, I would argue that once you've stabbed someone with it (just as once you use a cane sword) that anyone who observes it recognizes it for what it is. I don't know that I would allow you to create a stabbity weapon as IPE, although I'm sure someone will wander along and write up a perfectly valid version that I'm just not thinking of right now.

 

However, the second element of the question is neg. Once you've attacked, your invisibility ends, even if the nature of the attack is an IPE. Now a GM may rule otherwise, but "an attack is an attack is an attack." That's the whole point of having the limitation, quineg?

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Well no it's not the reason for the limitation. Since I was so far off on the understanding of the rules I am probably far off on the Invisibility build. Let me tell you what I am going for.

A character from a d2o game I played 10 years ago had this Amulet that sort of made him Invisible. He could be seen but you couldn't really focus on him and he went mainly ignored. The best examples of it are rather recent. In the new Doctor Who when they wore the Tardis key they it gave them the "they were there but not really" effect. As long as my character made no overtly offence actions he could not be "seen". If he used stealth and could conceal his actions with his or the targets body he could stab them and disappear into a crowd without being noticed (think Atlair from Assassin's Creed). Its hiding in plain sight or a form a super stealth.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

1) Running and Leaping won't break the Invisibility' date=' since you're Invis to Sight they still have two other sense groups (nominally sound and touch, both non-targeting) to work with.[/quote']

 

Hmmm. A rare occasion in that I disagree with you on a basic point of the rules. I'm not sure that you can say that the use of the Elemental Control in which the running and leaping are places would not violate the invisibility.

 

The running and leaping have been bought as powers and, as such, may have special effects beyond those normally associated with either movement power. There might be glowing auras related to the use of the EC - I'd say it would depend on the EC special effects...

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Invisibility makes you invisible. Obvious enough. It doesn't make your attacks invisible. Well, it doesn't make melee atatcks visible unless, you know, you use a focus, but if you attack in melee then your position becomes obvious, at least to the person you attacked. Really, if you think about it, then invisibility is only truly effective when not attacking, unless you have invisible power effects on your attacks. I'm not really sure therefore that 'only when not attacking' is worth that much as a limitation.

 

Then we have the sfx of other powers. Invisibility doesn't necessarily cover them, any more than it would cover the visible portion of an EB. There would seem to be no reason that the invisibility power should impute IPE on other powers. Well, there's a logical reason, obviously, just not a game reason.

 

For that matter, invisibility doesn't automatically have IPE; it should still be visible to three senses, which might well be a bit of a giveaway. It is never visible to something that it gives invisibility to though. Whew.

 

Finally, and as a complete aside, well, two complete asides, first off the 'RSR: you are probably (unless you have a massive stealth roll) better off buying an activation limitation to match the stealth roll - at least you'll get something for it.

 

Secondly, have you thought about presense? I mean you can, by and large, get close to someone easily enough, and, using stealth and sleight, you probably won't be noticed until you actually attack. If, instead of making you invisible, the amulet triggered a hefty (but specific) PRE attack, that would almost certainly be enough (for most opponents) to focus on the attacked person rather than the person who stabbed him - you could get away, at least, which is, pretty much, the point. That might well be an interesting way to accomplish the same sort of thing without the difficulties that invisibility brings.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

I am trying to make an Assassin character. I have a few questions I think I am doing it right but need to make sure since I am new to the system. I bought Invisibility:

 

Invisibility to Sight Group, Requires Stealth Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; +0), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Only When Not Attacking (-1/2), IAF (Concealed Amulet; -1/2)

 

 

To take advantage of the cost savings (plus it fit the concept) I bought extra Running and Leaping as Power Slots in an EC. Let me see if I got this right: If I use my base Characteristic Running or Leaping it will not break Invisibility, but if I use the Running and Leaping from the Power it will from the Visible Power Effects rule, Quiaff? So to remain Invisible I will need to buy Invisible Power Effects or move the points to the base characteristic.

 

I also have an IIF Concealed Wrist Blade. Since it is already Inobvious I will not need to buy the No Visible Power Effect advantage to use it and stay Invisible, Quiaff?

 

I bolded the part of your question this reply pertains to. The answer is: it doesn’t matter. You bought your invisibility “Only When Not Attacking” so you can’t use the wrist blades and still stay invisible.

 

Edit: Hmmm.... You couldn't attack with the wrist blades and stay invisible but if you bought them with IPE and used them to cut a rope with or something like that....Hmmm......

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

I bolded the part of your question this reply pertains to. The answer is: it doesn’t matter. You bought your invisibility “Only When Not Attacking” so you can’t use the wrist blades and still stay invisible.

 

Edit: Hmmm.... You couldn't attack with the wrist blades and stay invisible but if you bought them with IPE and used them to cut a rope with or something like that....Hmmm......

 

Point being, brother, that because he purchased a limitation, Only While Not Attacking then if he attacks, even with an IPE Wrist Blade he becomes visible. As I said, that's the function of having a limitation. If he doesn't want to appear once he stabs someone, then he has to remove that limitation.

 

Cutting a rope is a good question; I don't know how I'd rule that, since you're "attacking the darkness," as it were. Likely it would violate the invisibility (the exertion makes you shimmer and your location known, etc.).

 

If you're purchasing Super Stealth, then you have Invis, possibly with No Fringe (that's up to you, I wouldn't necessarily disallow it based on common/dramatic sense) and an RSR. They look for you! You use Invisibility! FOOMP, vanish! Oh, and Reduced END (-1/4) or 0, depending.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

I am trying to make an Assassin character. I have a few questions I think I am doing it right but need to make sure since I am new to the system. I bought Invisibility:

 

Invisibility to Sight Group, Requires Stealth Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; +0), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Only When Not Attacking (-1/2), IAF (Concealed Amulet; -1/2)

 

Note that being invisible to the Sight Group is considerably less than Undetectable. He can still be heard (Stealth will help with that, but using abilities which cost END will be problematic), smelled, etc.

 

To take advantage of the cost savings (plus it fit the concept) I bought extra Running and Leaping as Power Slots in an EC. Let me see if I got this right: If I use my base Characteristic Running or Leaping it will not break Invisibility' date=' but if I use the Running and Leaping from the Power it will from the Visible Power Effects rule[/quote']

 

To me, this would depend on the SFX of the powers in the EC. Leaping and running that are otherwise the same as normal running would, in my view, be rendered equally invisible. However, I would probably penalize your Stealth roll in respect of the extra moving - it's hard to sneakily run full-tilt or do a surreptitious broad jump. But the SFX of the EC might not be so simple - for example, if the SFX of this EC are that small fireworks ignite under the character's feet, propelling him forward, it's a lot tougher seeing that as becoming invisible.

 

Quiaff

 

Gesundheit

 

I also have an IIF Concealed Wrist Blade. Since it is already Inobvious I will not need to buy the No Visible Power Effect advantage to use it and stay Invisible

 

Well, we already know it can't be used when you attack. If used for other purposes, I would say it remains invisible to sight. Someone with enhanced senses could smell the oil used to oil the blade when it's removed from its sheathe. If it smacks a wall, it could make an audible noise, attracting attention to you. To reiterate, being invisible to sight is a far cry from being undetectable.

 

Quiaff?

 

Gesundheit

 

Well no it's not the reason for the limitation. Since I was so far off on the understanding of the rules I am probably far off on the Invisibility build. Let me tell you what I am going for.

A character from a d2o game I played 10 years ago had this Amulet that sort of made him Invisible. He could be seen but you couldn't really focus on him and he went mainly ignored. The best examples of it are rather recent. In the new Doctor Who when they wore the Tardis key they it gave them the "they were there but not really" effect. As long as my character made no overtly offence actions he could not be "seen". If he used stealth and could conceal his actions with his or the targets body he could stab them and disappear into a crowd without being noticed (think Atlair from Assassin's Creed). Its hiding in plain sight or a form a super stealth.

 

At the risk of being unable to get the worms back in the can...

 

Is this Invisibility, or is it a form of Mind Control which affects an area surrounding the character? I'm still visible, but you will ignore me unless I take overtly offensive actions. A very different construct to achieve the same effect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Hmmm. A rare occasion in that I disagree with you on a basic point of the rules. I'm not sure that you can say that the use of the Elemental Control in which the running and leaping are places would not violate the invisibility.

 

The running and leaping have been bought as powers and, as such, may have special effects beyond those normally associated with either movement power. There might be glowing auras related to the use of the EC - I'd say it would depend on the EC special effects...

 

 

Doc

 

To be more specific, because obviously I need to.

 

Invisibility specifically mentions it breaks the sensory rule for the Groups is covers. If you're Invisible:Sight you can still be heard, so footfalls can be made out, but no one will see you move.

 

Unless you did something utterly contradictory like buy Noisy for your Movement, or have a Limitation "Must Remain Still" on your Invisibility.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Note that being invisible to the Sight Group is considerably less than Undetectable. He can still be heard (Stealth will help with that' date=' but using abilities which cost END will be problematic), smelled, etc.[/quote']

 

Right; it's Invisibility. Powers in HERO are absolute constructs until a limitation is placed on it. If you bought "Invisibility to Sight Group" with no limitations, well. You're invisible, no matter what you do. That's how it works. So, "What Hugh said," in this case.

 

To me' date=' this would depend on the SFX of the powers in the EC. Leaping and running that are otherwise the same as normal running would, in my view, be rendered equally invisible. However, I would probably penalize your Stealth roll in respect of the extra moving - it's hard to sneakily run full-tilt or do a surreptitious broad jump. But the SFX of the EC might not be so simple - for example, if the SFX of this EC are that small fireworks ignite under the character's feet, propelling him forward, it's a lot tougher seeing that as becoming invisible.[/quote']

 

This is a classic case of overcomplicating the issue; he can run & leap, good enough. We don't need to derail an otherwise simple question into an all new and infinitely more complex one. At least not yet. Common & dramatic sense may certainly suggest that a penalty be placed if he's going at top speed, sure, but fireworks?

 

Gesundheit

 

He's making a BattleTech reference, specifically, a Clan reference. In the lingo, one ends a 'positive' question with "Quiaff?" As in, "We're still blowing up their base tonight, quiaff?" and a 'negative' question with "Quineg?" much as one would say, "Is it not?"

 

At the risk of being unable to get the worms back in the can...

 

Is this Invisibility, or is it a form of Mind Control which affects an area surrounding the character? I'm still visible, but you will ignore me unless I take overtly offensive actions. A very different construct to achieve the same effect.

 

It's Invisibility. For the sake of the new person's sanity, let's leave it as Invis.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

This is a classic case of overcomplicating the issue; he can run & leap' date=' good enough. We don't need to derail an otherwise simple question into an all new and infinitely more complex one. At least not yet. Common & dramatic sense may certainly suggest that a penalty be placed if he's going at top speed, sure, but fireworks?[/quote']

 

Fireworks was the first Hero SFX I could recall for running and leaping in a framework (but it's a 2e character IIRC). It wouldn't be as much of an issue except for the fact the powers are in an EC, and therefore bounded by a required common SFX. The key concept, however, is that whether the EC abilities would also be rendered invisible depends on their SFX.

 

BattleTech

Gesundheit

"Quiaff?"

Gesundheit

"Quineg?"

Gesundheit

 

Must be hay fever season...

 

[iOW, I can run a search on the word if I can't work its meaning from context.]

 

It's Invisibility. For the sake of the new person's sanity' date=' let's leave it as Invis.[/quote']

 

No it's not. It's causing other people to ignore you. I'd certainly allow it to be constructed as Invisibility, but it depends on the effect one is looking for. "The power to cloud men's minds" in d20 might be viewed as Invisibility with a Will Save. In Hero, that might be better defined as a mental attack causing the target not to perceive you. Or it could be defined as Invisibility - nothing wrong with the simple build as drafted. Or you could add a limitation to the Invisibility reducing or eliminating its effectiveness against viewers with unusually strong minds, who resist the impulse to ignore you.

 

Hero: It's all about the choices!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Yes, it's about choices, but it's all about not overloading people with so many options that they go blind. And posting 'gesundheit' just comes off as rather obnoxious; I was trying to politely put out why it was there. No need to come all the way back around and be obnoxious about it all over again.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

And posting 'gesundheit' just comes off as rather obnoxious; I was trying to politely put out why it was there. No need to come all the way back around and be obnoxious about it all over again.

 

Apparently, I've pushed a button, and if so I apologize to both yourself and Cannon-Fodder. However, I generally find degenerating into jargon [or at least jargon not directly relevant to the topic] to be obnoxious, so we all have our own viewpoints. For example, I try to avoid "Hero Jargon" to the extent possible in posts directed to newer players.

 

As to the main point:

 

Yes' date=' it's about choices, but it's all about not overloading people with so many options that they go blind. [/quote']

 

Two choices seems not to be inordinately horrific, but it depends on the individual. I'd like to think Cannon-Fodder can decide for himself which options he wants to follow up on, which ones don't fit his concept of the ability, and which ones are too complex to be worth his time.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Maybe I shouldn't have added BTech references in a non-BTech thread. I will try to keep relevant jargon only from now on.

Well if the "Only When Not Attacking " is going to give me problems I will trade it for something else to limit it's effectiveness. I want to try to stay invisible to everyone I did not attack. But still want some Limitations on it. Maybe restricting to Half Move and other offensive actions.

I had not set the EC SFX yet. I am still fairly early in the character creation and will remember that the SFX I choose will affect the Running and Leaping.

I would like to keep it Invisibility. In our game Detect Minds is not uncommon with and there will be a few enemies with Mental as a Targeting Sense. So some really strong minds will still be able to attack no problem.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Maybe I shouldn't have added BTech references in a non-BTech thread. I will try to keep relevant jargon only from now on.

 

Now how will I annoy Thia...

 

Seriously, the terms didn't put me off significantly. You can communicate with reasonable spelling and grammar, so that puts your posts in the "easily good enough" camp as far as I'm concerned.

 

Well if the "Only When Not Attacking " is going to give me problems I will trade it for something else to limit it's effectiveness. I want to try to stay invisible to everyone I did not attack. But still want some Limitations on it. Maybe restricting to Half Move and other offensive actions.

 

Generally, someone you attack can detect you whether you are visible or not. However, your GM might be open to a -1/4 limitation that your Invisibility fails entirely against anyone you have attacked in the past [time period - say 1 turn or one minute], meaning he, or they, can see you perfectly clearly but you remain invisible to all others. How limiting that is becomes a judgment call - it can't be as much as "not when attacking", but it may still be limiting enough for your GM to allow some cost reduction

 

I had not set the EC SFX yet. I am still fairly early in the character creation and will remember that the SFX I choose will affect the Running and Leaping.

 

I'm going to suggest you re-read the EC rules. These are wholly dependent on SFX. It sounds like you are playing a fantasy game, and I would note that EC's are pretty uncommon in that genre. They tend to be seen primarily in Supers games (eg. Fire Powers, Weather Powers). You may want to check with your GM whether EC's are allowed in this game and, if they are, what types of SFX might, or might not, be acceptable. Otherwise, you may find a need to do some serious point shaving if you have to remove the EC later.

 

I would like to keep it Invisibility. In our game Detect Minds is not uncommon with and there will be a few enemies with Mental as a Targeting Sense. So some really strong minds will still be able to attack no problem.

 

I find Fantasy games also tend to include creatures with hearing and smell as targeting senses as well. I don't think your GM will have any problems coming up with opposition your Invisibility provides little defense against.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Running and Leaping are going to give you significant penalties to your required Stealth roll. I'd allow it.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Hmmmmm... Sounds like someone has been playing Assassin's Creed from the sounds of this character concept!

 

Am I right?

 

(I love the game... even if it is repititious)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Maybe I shouldn't have added BTech references in a non-BTech thread. I will try to keep relevant jargon only from now on.

 

Well if the "Only When Not Attacking " is going to give me problems I will trade it for something else to limit it's effectiveness. I want to try to stay invisible to everyone I did not attack. But still want some Limitations on it. Maybe restricting to Half Move and other offensive actions.

 

I had not set the EC SFX yet. I am still fairly early in the character creation and will remember that the SFX I choose will affect the Running and Leaping.

 

I would like to keep it Invisibility. In our game Detect Minds is not uncommon with and there will be a few enemies with Mental as a Targeting Sense. So some really strong minds will still be able to attack no problem.

 

More obscure references, please, not less!

 

To be absolutely fool proof (until they come up with a better fool) buy invisibility and an attack with invisible power effects. Buy your running and leaping IPE (even the normal 'base' levels). You are golden(ish).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

And much as I maligned Hugh, he is correct; Mind Control (cloud men's minds) is one way to do this that's perfectly valid.

 

You can also use XDM, where we travel to an alternate dimension where no one notices the character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

And much as I maligned Hugh, he is correct; Mind Control (cloud men's minds) is one way to do this that's perfectly valid.

 

You can also use XDM, where we travel to an alternate dimension where no one notices the character.

 

Or transform, to make something just over there far more engaging...

 

What?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Or transform, to make something just over there far more engaging...

 

What?

 

Or Shapeshift, to guarantee you look like the person standing next to you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

And much as I maligned Hugh, he is correct; Mind Control (cloud men's minds) is one way to do this that's perfectly valid.

 

You can also use XDM, where we travel to an alternate dimension where no one notices the character.

 

Or Area Effect Transform (to Someone Who Can't Perceive Me; revert condition: I attack them).

 

Sorry, Cannon_Fodder, it's a bit of a running joke that all powers are really just derivations of Transform and Extra Dimensional Movement.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

Hmmmmm... Sounds like someone has been playing Assassin's Creed from the sounds of this character concept!

 

Am I right?

 

(I love the game... even if it is repititious)

 

I have been playing Assassin's Creed. I had an assassin I build 10 years ago for another system that was a lot like Altiar. Made me really want to try to transfer him into hero.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Invisibility Questions

 

I haven't played Assassin's Creed, but I'm familiar enough with the character archetype (I did a build of Sam Fisher around here somewheres) that the adaptation shouldn't really be all that hard. Hugh is correct; when in doubt, we throw up our hands and one side screams "Transform!" and the other side screams "XDM!" and then we throw dice at each other.

 

 

What? S'truth.

 

 

Okay, seriously. My understanding of the power is that he does, in fact, blend in with the crowd. How he does this while covered in sharp implements of destruction I don't know, but he does it. His powers would include:

 

Travel the Thieves Highway: Any mobility powers you want to give him (an extra 2" of running & leaping go a long way, believe me).

 

Martial Arts, including all the usual strike, stabby strike, choke, joint lock/break, Flying Dodge (yes, I said it), and other maneuvers based on movement and keeping his DCV high (Martial Dodge should be in there, just in case he wants the extra point of DCV, but most will maintain that with a silly high DEX Flying Dodge would be sufficient).

 

Stabby weapons. To... well, to stab people wit.

 

Then all of his CuK's, PS's and so on.

 

And of course, Invisibility, Requires a Stealth Roll, only when in a crowd or shadows, only while not attacking.

 

You can do the same thing with Mind Control; with very similar limitations. Requires a Stealth Roll, only while in a crowd or shadows, only while not attacking. The difference is the mechanic; not the result.