Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

[nexus]

Many settings use the idea of the Ancients, Precursors or what have you. The race that came first, spread across the galaxy and eventually vanished, leaving lots of cool stuff stuff, adventure hook and loot for PCs to fall bassawkwards into. The variation here is that the Ancients were humanity. Humans were the first race to reach sentience. The various other intelligences are their creations, the descendants of their genetically engineered creations, artificial intelligences, uplifted animals, etc. There may or may not be “natural” intelligent races

 

This is just barely the kernel of a idea. I’d like suggestions. Cultures, creatures, settings, any thing to flesh things out. The overall feel would be somewhat “hard” sci fi not absolutely realistic but not Space Opera or Science Fantasy. Any help would be appreciation, science fiction is a difficult genre for me. Also, I’m not claiming this is particularly original I just think it could be a cool place to game.

 

My (very) tentative campaign title is "The Children of Man".

[GothKidSamurai]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Word.

 

I had an idea similar to this for my NaNoWrMo story this year that never got off the ground. Mine was a little more quirky with steampunk spaceships and clockwork robot men but some things could be relevant.

 

My idea was influenced heavily by both the Jak and Daxter series and the Ratchet and Klank one.

 

The main race was a elven like race, similar to Jak and there were animal races like Ratchet and Daxter.

 

But anyway. All these different races. They lived on the moons of Jupiter, where long long ago Earth colonies had been set up, but for some reason the Earth empire had collapsed and a dark age occurred on the moons.

 

Eventually they had each built their technology back up and began to find each other in the void of space.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Well, two immediate references spring to mind:

 

1) Halo. The setting does in fact firmly establish that we (man) are the Forerunners. We likely either found in an alternate galaxy, or created, The Flood, wiping ourselves out, but building "The Ark" (one final ring) on Earth itself. Thrilling stuff.

 

2) Orson Scott Card's "Advent Rising." The story of a race of all powerful creatures, the stuff of legend, who were so deadly that they were hunted down to extinction.

 

3) There's also the possibility that man is the 'forerunner' from Mass Effect, but that hasn't been proven one way or another yet.

 

That race was man. And the aliens who hunted us down have found us again. And one of us will reawaken his powers. It's a great spin on a classic story.

[egaroadkill]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

I’ve always liked the Pac Protectors from Larry Niven’s Known Space.

[Dholcrist]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Well, two immediate references spring to mind:

 

1) Halo. The setting does in fact firmly establish that we (man) are the Forerunners. We likely either found in an alternate galaxy, or created, The Flood, wiping ourselves out, but building "The Ark" (one final ring) on Earth itself. Thrilling stuff.

 

2) Orson Scott Card's "Advent Rising." The story of a race of all powerful creatures, the stuff of legend, who were so deadly that they were hunted down to extinction.

 

3) There's also the possibility that man is the 'forerunner' from Mass Effect, but that hasn't been proven one way or another yet.

 

That race was man. And the aliens who hunted us down have found us again. And one of us will reawaken his powers. It's a great spin on a classic story.

 

 

All excellent references that I was going to point out myself, particularly Advent Rising (though I wouldn't call it "Orson Scott Card's", I ran into him at Comic Con a few years back and told him I enjoyed the story, he just chuckled and said "cool, you should compliment the scripters, I only worked on about the first third of it").

 

That story was cool because in it Humanity was a mythical race of godlike beings that disappeared millenia ago and are worshipped by various alien races across the galaxy. Cool stuff, and would've been a great game if it weren't rife with game-ending glitches.

[Doc]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

My favorite forerunners are the Mazones from Space Pirate Captain Harlock (1978) in wich they come back to Earth to retake their "gifts" and "wisdom" form human kind who didn't understand nor respect them. Maybe humanity could come back in your game to take revenge on some other race it has created, replace itself to power, etc.

 

This idea and TH' post made me think about Battlestar Galactica in wich humans created cylon robots who revolted against them. Humanity was almost completely wiped out. In that case, humanity could be considered the forerunner of cylons.

 

Hope that helps.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

My favorite forerunners are the Mazones from Space Pirate Captain Harlock (1978) in wich they come back to Earth to retake their "gifts" and "wisdom" form human kind who didn't understand nor respect them. Maybe humanity could come back in your game to take revenge on some other race it has created, replace itself to power, etc.

 

This idea and TH' post made me think about Battlestar Galactica in wich humans created cylon robots who revolted against them. Humanity was almost completely wiped out. In that case, humanity could be considered the forerunner of cylons.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Well, remember -- the following spoiler contains BSG plot elements, just in case someone hadn't seen it and wanted too. If you've already seen it, or don't care, then by all means click Mr. Button:

 

 

Everything that the Cylons are doing in BSG 2005 - 2008 is dedicated to creating a new, final race. One that can breed and perpetutate without the use of the Resurrection Machine or human intervention; i.e., the only viable child was a Human/Cylon hybrid, which means that their genetics are way, way ahead of where they should have been. It also means that the "original 12" will breed out into new shapes and forms. What's odd is that they declared war straight up, something I have yet to really understand. But certainly, 150, 200 years from now, and you have a new race for whom the humans are a legend, that could make for compelling fiction. It's the same idea I used for my HERO: Combat Evolved short story arc, now that the Halo Wars are over, we leap ahead 20 or 30 years -- what would that galaxy now look like?

 

 

So those were other ideas that I had.

[Dholcrist]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Well' date=' remember -- the following spoiler contains BSG plot elements, [i']just in case[/i] someone hadn't seen it and wanted too. If you've already seen it, or don't care, then by all means click Mr. Button:

 

 

Everything that the Cylons are doing in BSG 2005 - 2008 is dedicated to creating a new, final race. One that can breed and perpetutate without the use of the Resurrection Machine or human intervention; i.e., the only viable child was a Human/Cylon hybrid, which means that their genetics are way, way ahead of where they should have been. It also means that the "original 12" will breed out into new shapes and forms. What's odd is that they declared war straight up, something I have yet to really understand. But certainly, 150, 200 years from now, and you have a new race for whom the humans are a legend, that could make for compelling fiction. It's the same idea I used for my HERO: Combat Evolved short story arc, now that the Halo Wars are over, we leap ahead 20 or 30 years -- what would that galaxy now look like?

 

 

So those were other ideas that I had.

 

Hm, hadn't extrapolated the BSG info that far into the future. That would indeed make for a very cool storyline. Though I had similar thoughts/theories on what life might have been like on the original "Homeworld" that the 13 Colonies fled from.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Hm' date=' hadn't extrapolated the BSG info that far into the future. That would indeed make for a very cool storyline. Though I had similar thoughts/theories on what life might have been like on the original "Homeworld" that the 13 Colonies fled from.[/quote']

 

Well, to be fair, I see way too much "let's import this wholesale" and you're sort of 'mentally bound' to the stories that have already been told, keeping them from telling new, and fresh stories because they're concerned with staying with the 'canon,' or even with minor changes, you're still going in these weird mental circles. But lately I've taken a lot of source material, hit the 'fast forward' button and be really interested in the results that I've come up with.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Mostly minor nitpick: Your use of the word "sentience" isn't quite correct. ["You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."] The word literally refers to intelligence capable of using senses. What I think you mean is "sapience," which is the capacity to think about thinking -- in other words, the level of abstract thought that brings human intelligence above that of other Earth creatures.

 

If you're looking for good source material, you can consider the episodes "New Earth" and "Gridlock" from the second and third seasons of the new Doctor Who. These episodes feature sapient humanoid felines in a rather interesting culture -- the emphasis is on an order of medical nuns, but there are others.

 

You could also take a look at the genotypes from Terran Empire/Alien Wars, along with my additions in DH#30, for ideas.

 

For artificial intelligences, you're referring to things like androids, sapient computers, and the like, right? At androidworld.com (I can find a link to the specific page later if you have trouble) there's a page with some thoughts on that topic which I tend to go along with.

 

A question to ponder, whether for the setting as a whole or (possibly) for each culture/people group specifically, is how humanity is remembered and regarded. Are historical records kept, or are we merely legends of some quasi-divine quality? Is there some "last remnant of humanity" somewhere, and if so what are they like?

[Basil]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Many settings use the idea of the Ancients, Precursors or what have you. The race that came first, spread across the galaxy and eventually vanished, leaving lots of cool stuff stuff, adventure hook and loot for PCs to fall bassawkwards into. The variation here is that the Ancients were humanity. Humans were the first race to reach sentience. The various other intelligences are their creations, the descendants of their genetically engineered creations, artificial intelligences, uplifted animals, etc. There may or may not be “natural” intelligent races

 

This is just barely the kernel of a idea. I’d like suggestions. Cultures, creatures, settings, any thing to flesh things out. The overall feel would be somewhat “hard” sci fi not absolutely realistic but not Space Opera or Science Fantasy. Any help would be appreciation, science fiction is a difficult genre for me. Also, I’m not claiming this is particularly original I just think it could be a cool place to game.

 

My (very) tentative campaign title is "The Children of Man".

 

Things to consider: Why no other sapient races? Why was a comparatively late "born" star like Sol the first to give rise to sapience?

 

How different from humanity are the various "created" races? Are any of them essentially "altered people" or are they all built out of animals or are they made "from the ground up" or any combination thereof?

 

Are the "artificial intelligences" stuck in immobile computers, or can their bodies move? If mobile, how human-like are their forms? Can/do they shift from container to container, as need and/or whim take them, or do they need to stick with one body shape? If the later, do all AI's use the same (or at least similar) body shape, or is there a wide spectrum?

 

What about aging---which types (if any) age, and at what rate?

 

And the most important questions: Has humanity completely disappeared? If so, why? If not, how hidden are the remenants? Do the remaining humans know they're the "Ancients"? Does anyone else?

[Clonus]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

One idea I had when I came up with this idea was having interstellar civilisation operate through a network of artificial wormholes set up by humanity not long before they disappeared. The successor states don't actually possess any kind of FTL technology of their own. It's also safe to assume that every star system in the network has all the reasonably terraformable worlds done up so you can expect at least a couple of habitable planets per star. They may have ignited all the big gas giants for a million or so years. There's a real possibility that the successors can find stray hibernation ships loaded with humans no more advanced than they are dating back to the era when humanity first went out to the stars.

[Sundog]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

I'd had some concepts of something similar a while back.

 

The idea was that humanity had "uplifted" various species - the main ones I was looking at were Felinoids, Canoids, Ant-Descended (free willed, not hive-mind, but still a caste society, since that was their primary evolutionary advantage), Equinoid (with six limbs - four legs, two arms mounted on the outside of the forward pelvic girdle), Kangaroid, and Cetacianoid (with modified forward flippers capable of functioning as hands).

 

These races, plus a few minor ones that never really made it, were each "planted" on a world terraformed to match their preferences. Each was also given a Library - a building full of knowledge on every conceivable topic, but each category and level of knowledge had to be "unlocked" by solving a problem related to that category, or of that level of complexity. Thus, rather than simply giving information to societies unready for them, each society got a "leg up" when they met certain stages of development.

 

The Library worked up to the development of FTL drives - there was no more information after that to give.

 

Earth's sun is known of, but is missing, and no ship going to those coordinates has ever returned (Sol isn't actually gone; we've built a Dyson Sphere).

 

I also worked out a plot, of a non-human descended race appearing. This species is too alien to communicate with, and the various races have to try to bury the hatchet, work together and cooperate to survive the onslaught.

[Doc]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Well' date=' remember -- the following spoiler contains BSG plot elements, [i']just in case[/i] someone hadn't seen it and wanted too. If you've already seen it, or don't care, then by all means click Mr. Button:

 

 

Everything that the Cylons are doing in BSG 2005 - 2008 is dedicated to creating a new, final race. One that can breed and perpetutate without the use of the Resurrection Machine or human intervention; i.e., the only viable child was a Human/Cylon hybrid, which means that their genetics are way, way ahead of where they should have been. It also means that the "original 12" will breed out into new shapes and forms. What's odd is that they declared war straight up, something I have yet to really understand. But certainly, 150, 200 years from now, and you have a new race for whom the humans are a legend, that could make for compelling fiction. It's the same idea I used for my HERO: Combat Evolved short story arc, now that the Halo Wars are over, we leap ahead 20 or 30 years -- what would that galaxy now look like?

 

 

So those were other ideas that I had.

 

About what you still have to understand in BSG:

 

 

I like to think it's because of that black op Adama had to command on the fringe of the armistice line. Cylons may have thought an impending attack was in preparation, but I'd prefer the other option wich is that the human admiralty was looking for a war and their plan just totally screwed up...

 

 

There's a real possibility that the successors can find stray hibernation ships loaded with humans no more advanced than they are dating back to the era when humanity first went out to the stars.

 

 

I really, really like this idea. In fact, it was beginning to form in my mind before I read your post. Repped. I'd add that humans are also "genetically dating back"... I mean, new races could have some new abilities or intellectual capacities that humans didn't get from their natural evolution. It could be a shock for those new races to discover that the species they consider like gods are in some way half animals to them...

[Nyrath]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Many settings use the idea of the Ancients' date=' Precursors or what have you. The race that came first, spread across the galaxy and eventually vanished, leaving lots of cool stuff stuff, adventure hook and loot for PCs to fall bassawkwards into. The variation here is that the Ancients were humanity. Humans were the first race to reach sentience. The various other intelligences are their creations, the descendants of their genetically engineered creations, artificial intelligences, uplifted animals, etc. There may or may not be “natural” intelligent races[/quote']

 

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aa.html#apesorangels

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#alien

 

As a matter of terminology, a long-extinct star faring alien civilization are commonly called "Forerunners", "Precursors", "Ancients", "Elder race", "Progenitors", or "Predecessors". Their thousand year old ruins are sobering, but their high-tech artifacts ("paleotechnology") are generally far in advance of current tech levels and are of course both incredibly valuable yet incredibly dangerous. Archaeologists who stumble over such remains have a tendency to be killed by pirates, and their artifacts stolen.

[Nyrath]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

I'd had some concepts of something similar a while back.

 

The idea was that humanity had "uplifted" various species - the main ones I was looking at were Felinoids, Canoids, Ant-Descended (free willed, not hive-mind, but still a caste society, since that was their primary evolutionary advantage), Equinoid (with six limbs - four legs, two arms mounted on the outside of the forward pelvic girdle), Kangaroid, and Cetacianoid (with modified forward flippers capable of functioning as hands).

There was something vaguely similar in the excellent Erma Felna comics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erma_Felna:_EDF

It shows a nice interstellar civilization of various bipedal animals: cats, mice, dogs, horses, etc. They cannot figure out why there is no evidence of their presence in the fossil record on any of their planets.

 

Things get tense when they find a particular derelict starship in deep space. Said ship is thousands of years old, has a technology far beyond any their current technology, and contains the body of a weird creature (a human being) who's DNA appears to be incorporated in the genome of all the animal species (the parts of their genomes that match across species).

 

Obviously all the animals were create by uplift.

 

Things get tenser when they find that the starship is powered by some kind of matter into energy power plant that is trivially easy to convert into a planet-destroying doomsday weapon...

[nexus]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Things to consider: Why no other sapient races? Why was a comparatively late "born" star like Sol the first to give rise to sapience?

 

Mainly just for something different. There might have been other sapient species but they just didn't make it, happenstance, bad luck and self inflicted genocide wiped them out. In the setting, the formula to calculate the chance for life had the worst case scenario numbers plugged in.

[Clonus]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Mainly just for something different. There might have been other sapient species but they just didn't make it' date=' happenstance, bad luck and self inflicted genocide wiped them out. In the setting, the formula to calculate the chance for life had the worst case scenario numbers plugged in. [/quote']

 

In realistic terms, if interstellar travel is possible, the first species to get it will preclude the development of other tool using lifeforms. This tends to indicate that either interstellar travel doesn't happen (and it doesn't really matter that aliens exist because we'll never meet them) or we'll be the first to get it.

[Clonus]

Mainly just for something different. There might have been other sapient species but they just didn't make it' date=' happenstance, bad luck and self inflicted genocide wiped them out. In the setting, the formula to calculate the chance for life had the worst case scenario numbers plugged in. [/quote']

 

In realistic terms, if interstellar travel is possible, the first species to get it will preclude the development of other tool using lifeforms. This tends to indicate that either interstellar travel doesn't happen (and it doesn't really matter that aliens exist because we'll never meet them) or we'll be the first.

[Basil]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

In realistic terms' date=' if interstellar travel is possible, the first species to get it will preclude the development of other tool using lifeforms. This tends to indicate that either interstellar travel doesn't happen (and it doesn't really matter that aliens exist because we'll never meet them) or we'll be the first.[/quote']

 

I have certainly heard of the Fermi Paradox, but this is the first time I've heard it rephrased from "Where are they?" to "Why haven't they committed genocide on us?"

 

No, there is no reason to suppose that every race of beings capable of the level of cooperation needed for interstellar flight would destroy every (or any) other race of sapient (or proto-sapient) creatures they met.

[Nyrath]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

I have certainly heard of the Fermi Paradox, but this is the first time I've heard it rephrased from "Where are they?" to "Why haven't they committed genocide on us?"

 

No, there is no reason to suppose that every race of beings capable of the level of cooperation needed for interstellar flight would destroy every (or any) other race of sapient (or proto-sapient) creatures they met.

Well, there is some controversy on that point.

 

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aa.html#killingstar

 

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

 

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

 

2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

 

3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

 

But then these optimists make the jump: If we are wise enough to survive and not wipe ourselves out, we will be peaceful -- so peaceful that we will not wipe anybody else out, and as we are below on Earth, so other people will be above.

 

This is a non sequitur, because there is no guarantee that one follows the other, and for a very important reason: "They" are not part of our species.

 

Presumably there is some sort of inhibition against killing another member of our own species, because we have to work to overcome it...

 

But the rules do not apply to other species. Both humans and wolves lack inhibitions against killing chickens.

 

Humans kill other species all the time, even those with which we share the common bond of high intelligence. As you read this, hundreds of dolphins are being killed by tuna fishermen and drift netters. The killing goes on and on, and dolphins are not even a threat to us.

 

 

 

As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing another species simply because it displays a high intelligence. So, as much as we love him, Carl Sagan's theory that if a species makes it to the top and does not blow itself apart, then it will be nice to other intelligent species is probably wrong. Once you admit interstellar species will not necessarily be nice to one another simply by virtue of having survived, then you open up this whole nightmare of relativistic civilizations exterminating one another.

 

It's an entirely new situation, emerging from the physical possibilities that will face any species that can overcome the natural interstellar quarantine of its solar system. The choices seem unforgiving, and the mind struggles to imagine circumstances under which an interstellar species might make contact without triggering the realization that it can't afford to be proven wrong in its fears.

 

Got that? We can't afford to wait to be proven wrong.

 

They won't come to get our resources or our knowledge or our women or even because they're just mean and want power over us. They'll come to destroy us to insure their survival, even if we're no apparent threat, because species death is just too much to risk, however remote the risk...

 

[FireTiger]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

There was something vaguely similar in the excellent Erma Felna comics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erma_Felna:_EDF

It shows a nice interstellar civilization of various bipedal animals: cats, mice, dogs, horses, etc. They cannot figure out why there is no evidence of their presence in the fossil record on any of their planets.

 

I've a fair number of Albedo Anthropomorphics issues, and a copy of the RPG based on it. It is one of the more realistic sci-fi universes where space combat is concerned; battles can take weeks to set up and tend to be over in seconds.

 

When the comics begin is some 200 years after the initial Awakening on Arras Chanka...

 

All 163 of the races began on a single world, the planet Arras Chanka, and all at the same time. There is no archaeological evidence of anything like a pre-history (as Nyrath noted), nor are there any meaningful genetic links between any of the intelligent species.

 

This brought about the development of space flight technologies (fusion propulsion and a Traveller-style jump drive). There have been three periods of colonization, the first two being launched from Arras Chanka (which moved colonies out to a 100 LY radius) and the third from various established colony worlds (which brings the total area of known-space out to some 200 LY).

[Basil]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

Well, there is some controversy on that point.

 

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aa.html#killingstar

 

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

 

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

 

2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

 

3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

 

The problem with this is its total "planetocentric" viewpoint.

 

Assuming the laws of physics as we now know them are essentially correct --- correct enough that there is no FTL, no reactionless STL, so "magic space drive" --- then the question is not "what will make a species top dog on its planet" but "what will make a species able to exploit and settle its stellar system."

 

There is one quality above all that will be needed: cooperativeness. NOTE!: I didn't say "peacefulness," I didn't say "passivity." I said cooperativeness; the ability, even the urge, to find mutually acceptable (even more important, mutually profitable) plans of action. A species that does not become cooperative will not be able to fully "move into" its stellar system. Seriously, the level of effort needed is so extremely much more than settling a single planet (one, moreover, it will have evolved to fit), that an equally extreme increase in cooperativeness will be needed. In an environment innately hostile to all life, a person who cannot learn to be cooperative will be deadly to all around him/her. If the society doesn't evolve to fit the needs of the new environment (outer space), then it will collapse back into its cradle.

 

Cooperativeness will be a central tenant of stellar-system society, and even more so any society that "slips the surly bonds" of a star and goes off into interstellar space. With such a viewpoint so inherent to any society that reaches another star, point #2 is badly weakened; oh sure, they'll be alert, and ruthless when necessary (note: necessary). But aggressiveness will be channeled to "do better than him/her/them" because non-cooperative aggressiveness will have been known to be deadly for centuries if not millennia .

 

I guess you could call it #2A: Any sapient species that makes it out of the confines of its planet will learn cooperativeness well before it makes it out of the confines of its stellar system.

 

Anyway, "kill them before they kill us" is paranoia. And a paranoid species will no more get out of its stellar system than a non-cooperating one.

[Nyrath]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

There is one quality above all that will be needed: cooperativeness. NOTE!: I didn't say "peacefulness' date='" I didn't say "passivity." I said cooperativeness; the ability, even the urge, to find mutually acceptable (even more important, mutually [u']profitable[/u]) plans of action. A species that does not become cooperative will not be able to fully "move into" its stellar system.

-- snip --

Anyway, "kill them before they kill us" is paranoia. And a paranoid species will no more get out of its stellar system than a non-cooperating one.

 

Well, even if a species has to learn cooperativeness to get out of its stellar system, that is only being cooperative with other members of its own species. There is no guarantee it will cooperate with members of a different species, like us.

 

As I quoted above:

But then these optimists make the jump: If we are wise enough to survive and not wipe ourselves out, we will be peaceful -- so peaceful that we will not wipe anybody else out, and as we are below on Earth, so other people will be above.

 

This is a non sequitur, because there is no guarantee that one follows the other, and for a very important reason: "They" are not part of our species.

 

Presumably there is some sort of inhibition against killing another member of our own species, because we have to work to overcome it...

 

But the rules do not apply to other species. Both humans and wolves lack inhibitions against killing chickens.

 

Humans kill other species all the time, even those with which we share the common bond of high intelligence. As you read this, hundreds of dolphins are being killed by tuna fishermen and drift netters. The killing goes on and on, and dolphins are not even a threat to us.

 

As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing another species simply because it displays a high intelligence. So, as much as we love him, Carl Sagan's theory that if a species makes it to the top and does not blow itself apart, then it will be nice to other intelligent species is probably wrong.

 

The point about paranoia raises the question: is it paranoia if they are really out to get you? And is it paranoid to be afraid of the paranoid?

 

Let me explain.

 

There are two situations here. Imagine that you and a another person were marooned, all alone on a tiny island.

 

Situation one is if you are a mentally ill paranoid person. Then you would try to kill the other because you are paranoid.

 

Situation two is if you are perfectly sane, but the other person is paranoid and is trying to kill you. In that case the safe route is also to kill the other person, to protect your own life. You've got to sleep sometime.

 

The only case when it does not make sense to kill the other if you are both sane and are 100% sure the other is sane.

 

When you replace the two people with two interstellar species, keep in mind that they are gambling with the existence of their entire species. What is the acceptable risk to run with your species existence? 50% chance of becoming extinct? 25%? 10%?

 

The only acceptable risk is 0%

 

This is a variation on the Prisoners Dilemma.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aa.html#prisonersdilemma

 

The problem is that the Prisoner's Dilemma makes it all too likely that Paranoia beats reason. For those unfamiliar with it... here's the Space version.

 

Race A and B both have roughly comparable technology, but don't understand each other. Each race has 2 options: Launch missiles or Ignore each other.

 

If Both races open fire, both races are devastated but not destroyed.

 

If one race opens fire and the other ignores it, they're utterly exterminated.

 

If both races ignore each other, they live in peace and are fine.

 

The problem is, neither can really communicate with each other. And although the cooperative choice of ignoring each other is best, the risks of them firing first while you ignore them are too great. Thus, this scenario via game theory, will always result in missiles being exchanged.

 

Say you are Race A. If Race B ignores you, your best outcome is to attack. Then you do not have to live in fear, spend resources on building defenses, and so on. If race B attacks, your best outcome is still to attack, since the alternative is extermination.

 

And since Race B will make the same determination, both races will attack and be devastated but not destroyed.

 

This all comes to a head with the addition of relativistic weapons (R-bombs). The trouble with them is that they are basically unstoppable. If they are moving faster than 90% c, you never see or detect them where they are now, only where they were. You would first detect them a few seconds before they hit and eliminated all life on your planet.

 

So if one species becomes aware of another interstellar species, the safe thing for species one to do is to commit genocide before the other species discovers them.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Help me flesh out a kernal of a setting idea

 

An interesting scenario.

 

One variation would be that Humanity once dominated the galaxy, "uplifted" many species into sentience through genetic manipulation and seeded them throughout the galaxy..then the human culture collapsed into barbarism leaving all of these species isolated from one another, though with the technology to eventually reach the stars again.

 

Fast forard 1000 years later and the galaxy is being torn apart by an incredibly powerful and violent species. They don't want to dominate or rule, they simply want to destroy. The other races (including the remanants of humanity who have complete forgotten their own history) must band together to survive. The big reveal should happen about 3/4 into the story (that humans are responsible for creating The Enemy) and that the humans have the potential to stop the destruction...all they need to do is find the command codes, lost over a millenia ago.

 

Now a race would begin to find these command codes...and certain factions wish to get the codes so that they can control The Enemy rather than simply to stop them permanently...