Critique Battle Suit

[JmOz]

This is just the characters Battle suit as it is worn by the character, I would like a critique if you all would

 

HAVOC Battlesuit

 

Humanoid Armored Vehicle of Canada Battlesuit

 

HAVOC

 

Player:

Cost	Power	END
	Basic Systems, all slots: Extra Time 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-3/4), OIF (-1/2), Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2)
11	1) Protective Armor: Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points)
14	2) Enviromental Systems: Life Support , Eating: Character only has to eat once per week, Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing (40 Active Points)
12	3) Radar System: Radar (Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Telescopic (+3)), Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages +1/2) (34 Active Points)
4	4) Radio System: High Range Radio Perception (12 Active Points)
2	5) IR Scopes: Infrared Perception (5 Active Points)
7	6) Fission Power Battery: Endurance Reserve (100 END, 10 REC) (20 Active Points)
2	7) Polorised Lenses: Flash Defense (5 points) (Hearing Group) (5 Active Points)
10	Fission Powered Systems: Elemental Control, 30-point powers, all slots: (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)
10	1) Fission Powered Flight: Flight 10", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages +1/2) (30 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	3
10	2) Fission Powered Force Field: Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 1/2 END (+1/4) (30 Active Points) (uses Personal END)	1
8	3) Fissioned Powered Strength Augmentation: +25 STR, Reduced Endurance 1/2 END (+1/4) (31 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) (uses END Reserve)	1
40	Weapon Systems: Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots: (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)
4u	1) Fission Blast: Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED) (60 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	6
3u	2) Bolas: Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 8 Charges (-1/2)
2u	3) Net mssile: Entangle 3d6, 5 DEF, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
3u	4) Gas Missile: Energy Blast 3d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2), No Normal Defense Standard (+1), Continuous (+1) (52 Active Points); 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/2)
2u	5) Blast Missiles: Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	6) Bomb Missiles: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	7) Blinder Missiles: Flash 8d6 (Sight Group), Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	8) Micro Missiles: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (vs. ED) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)

Powers Cost: 150

 

Total Character Cost: 150

[Wolfbat]

As far as the powers go, its fine. However the use of limitations as they are applied would make me immediatly suspect this as a munchkin design, here is why:

 

1. Battlesuits shoult NOT be in an EC, there are no battlesuits in any official champions products that put the powers in an EC.

 

2. The time to power on limitation really only works if its a true disadvantage. If the suit is put on in the morning, out of combat, and worn all day, then it takes him 84 seconds to get ready for the day. What an amazing cost break for such a minor inconvenience. If the GM resorted to attacking the character out of this suit, thus making him spend the 7 turns to power on the suit, then the fight would likely be over before you finished and the player would likely feel "picked on".

[oni84067]

As a general rule, I do not like charges on powers in a multipower.

You already get a huge cost savings from MP, putting charges on a slot perks MY munchkin meter.

If you run out charges in one slot you just change slots. How limiting is that?

How about no MP and charge limit on each power you want?

 

Yes it will cost more, but each power would be a seperate "weapon system."

[Dr Lucky]

I would argue that the charges on multipower slots are quite limiting. Look at it this way; The cost per slot on a multipower is very low. Limiting slots on a multipower results in almost no point savings, usually at most one or two points per slot. Say he were to run up against someone with little resistant defense, he's going to wish he had more shots with his RKA's than four regular ones and four explosions. If he hadn't taken that disadvantage, and saved three or four points total, he would have as many RKA's as he needed. Same thing goes for the NND attack and the Flash.

[Earthson]

Creative Use of the Rules..

 

This would be your GM's problem but with the END battery you would run low after a turn or two and people would have a crack at you if you were surprized. Nothing too out of balance but those 4d6 RKA's would make me think twice...

[Deacon Blues]

I agree on the EC being a bad idea for a battlesuit. It's not a legitimate use of the Elemental Control.

 

Also, that Extra Time to Activate and the Concentration are going to make the character essentially useless in anything but an ambush.

[Earthson]

On a second look...

 

I'm not sure the EC is the problem...

 

The activation for the Armor should be right out of the question, no limitation on that, I realise this might be a simulation on climbing into the battle suit but...

 

The END Bat could have Extra Time to warm up, but still its not worth the weight of the limit given to it...

 

Sensory Equipment and Life Support...

 

Do these cost END? If so then the activation might be appropriate, letting the vacuum tubes warm up if you will, still I'd take some of the weight out of the limitation for the extra time...

[Earthson]

Suggestion..

 

Take the Extra Time limit down to a -1/2 or -1/4, since this is a suit wouldn't a villian be able to rip parts of the suit off given a grab or a blow to the suit?

[JmOz]

Yes the Extra Time and Concentration represent him getting into the suit and it warming up (instead of some Guyveresk wrap around thing), I will consider the rest of the comments, and probably revise the character some...

 

Please keep the coments coming:

 

A few other things:

 

1) I do not consider MP charges abusive in the least, as stated earlier the savings is miniscule, while the limiting factors can be high (or at least the inconveinence can be high)

 

2) I see nothing wrong with EC's being limited by Foci as long as all the powers in it share a F/X more than it's attached to my armor...HOWEVER by examples in the books "Terchnology Attached to my armor" is as appropriate as some other EC's (helpful witchery anyone?)

 

3) The character will have his armor taken from him at times, that is why I chose OIF not OIHID

 

Keep the comments coming, I am going to consider removing the extra time and Concentration limitations

[winterhawk]

I had someone use the same limitations on a Martial Artists powers, explaining he had to meditate each morning to gain the full benefit of the training. Man was he nervous when VIPER staged an early morning raid!

[JmOz]

Originally posted by winterhawk

I had someone use the same limitations on a Martial Artists powers, explaining he had to meditate each morning to gain the full benefit of the training. Man was he nervous when VIPER staged an early morning raid!

 

What was his reset condition on them? If anybody in the games I am involved with take a "Only to activate" limitation (Extra time or concentration) they must set a reasonable limitation on having to reset it. Examples in the past have included 1 hour time limit (This was allowed once, and was deamed no enough, in the future the lim is going to be closer to 5 minutes I think) on keeping it up, per battle, removal of foci, and reverting to civilian ID

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by JmOz

What was his reset condition on them? If anybody in the games I am involved with take a "Only to activate" limitation (Extra time or concentration) they must set a reasonable limitation on having to reset it.

 

Never defined...the way he worded it was "I have to meditate for an hour every morning." so I assumed that it was during the character's waking hours. Hence, the early morning raid.

[JmOz]

anyone else?

[Superskrull]

Re: Creative Use of the Rules..

 

Originally posted by Earthson

This would be your GM's problem but with the END battery you would run low after a turn or two and people would have a crack at you if you were surprized. Nothing too out of balance but those 4d6 RKA's would make me think twice...

 

Just out of curiousity, why do the 4d6 RKAs make you think twice?

[GamePhil]

Re: Re: Creative Use of the Rules..

 

Originally posted by Superskrull

Just out of curiousity, why do the 4d6 RKAs make you think twice?

 

Did you ever read the old Ultimate Supermage? In it, he goes over a trial he ran in his game where everyone was asked to come up with *the* most abusive attack they could on 60 Active Points or less. The one that made targets cringe the most when used on them. Guess what it was?

 

Let's put it another way: You're fighting a target with, say, 72 Defense. Which one will you hit it with: the 12d6 EB, or the 4d6 Killing Attack? Well, actually, you'd probably use the 6d6 NND, but if you only had a choice of the two, there is certainly no doubt which one actually has a chance of hurting the Invulnerable Man.

[GamePhil]

Hmm, I have no problem with it whatsoever, I'm actually surprised by some of the comments. However, some advice:

 

The -1 1/4 Limitation on the main suit systems, I would allow, but with a warning: it means that I am obligated, as GM, to make sure it comes up a lot. If your character conception has him almost every adventure being out of his armor two or three times and having to go through this process, then great. If not, I really suggest you drop it, because that's exactly what's going to happen.

 

The EC looks to be perfectly in order. I *might* look askance at a Powered Armor EC, but this one has a more unified special effect and a logical reason to work with all of the limitations of 5th Edition EC's, most importantly that if one Power is drained, they all are.

 

I might suggest that the EB in the Multipower have the Limitation I just found out about from the FAQ, that it is Drained along with the EC, except that this might mean you lose the Multipower as a whole. Perhaps the Limitation on the END Reserve would work.

 

However, the STR with the No Figured Characteristics is incorrect: I just looked it up and Characteristics in a Power Framework (not just Multipowers like in 4th Ed) do not provide Figured Characteristics. If there is something that contradicts this, please let me know.

 

It appears you saved all of 12 pts on the Multipower by putting Charges on some of the slots, and the Charges are well within character conception and special effect: you only have so many missiles.

 

The Killing Attack I would tend to look at funny, but again, it is in conception and not excessively powerful, so I'd accept at. Killing Attacks over about 2 dice tend to annoy me, because they are horribly unpredictable. But that's just me.

[JmOz]

On the Str in the EC, a while ago someone asked if it ment that they had to take the lim or if the effect of the lim was automatic, IIRC the answer was that it had to be taken...

 

Here is the FAQ

Q: The rules on 5E 92 state that Characteristics bought through a Multipower (or sometimes other Power Frameworks) automatically don’t provide Figured Characteristics. Does this mean such a power cannot take the No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) Limitation, or that it must take that Limitation?

 

 

 

A: It means it must take that Limitation

[Tech]

Originally posted by JmOz

anyone else?

 

I have no problem with an EC in an armored suit nor charges on an MP. If there are limitations on either an EC or MP, be aware o player that they will will be encountered by you.

 

Anyways, I don't think the End Reserve should be in. I don't have any problems for the most part of doing unusual things with End Reserves, but if all the powers require Concentration and Extra Time to activate, it seems very odd that you need to do this with the End Reserve. What if powers are activated before the End Reserve is concentrated into activation?

 

I can't see the justification for the Flash Def with the limitations given. What's the special effect?

 

Next is my opinion but I'm sick to death of seeing Killing Attacks with Penetration being almost commonplace.

 

The MP is intriguing, the Penetrating KA aside.

[Talon]

Charges and MP can get abusive because most MPs have plenty of slots that can be used to attack, so for a Limitation on every slot, you're still getting lots of attack usages.

 

What are the intended uses for Variable Advantage on the Radar and Flight?

 

I agree with the other comments about Extra Time and Concentration: if all the character does is climb into the suit every morning and stay in all day, then the Limitation value is too high (unless the GM makes a point of inconveniencing the character). I would point out that the Extra Time and Concentration apply if anyone hits the armor with a Dispel, so inconveniencing the character might not be that hard. I'd suggest reducing it to a -1/2 or -1/4 "takes more than usual time to get into suit" Limited Power, which would then come up only occasionally.

 

One of the fission powers is listed as using Personal END, I assume that's a typo.

 

The STUN Lotto effect of the RKA would make me look twice too, except that I would have already house-ruled it away.

[Superskrull]

Re: Re: Re: Creative Use of the Rules..

 

Originally posted by GamePhil

Did you ever read the old Ultimate Supermage? In it, he goes over a trial he ran in his game where everyone was asked to come up with *the* most abusive attack they could on 60 Active Points or less. The one that made targets cringe the most when used on them. Guess what it was?

 

Let's put it another way: You're fighting a target with, say, 72 Defense. Which one will you hit it with: the 12d6 EB, or the 4d6 Killing Attack? Well, actually, you'd probably use the 6d6 NND, but if you only had a choice of the two, there is certainly no doubt which one actually has a chance of hurting the Invulnerable Man.

 

Well, I've had as many, if not more, failures with 4d RKAs as successes both as a player and a GM. I've knocked out the team brick with a wimp villain using a 3d RKA and scored 6 Body & Stun on a 5d RKA from what was supposed to be an in-scale evil Superman clone. Most of the time, though, my 4d RKAs seem to produce slightly less results than my favorite attack, a basic EB.

[JmOz]

The F/x of the Extra time and the Concentration is suiting up and turning on the systems

 

The character as pictured will be out of his suit as often as in it (about 50/50 really so I do think the lims should be reduced as well, I'm fiddling with it but still feel it should be a limitation to 1 1/4 total lim (This is where I consider 50/50))

 

The major use of the Var Advantage on both Flight and Radar are for Megascale at different levels (1:10, 1:100, 1:1K), also on flight will be Red End and usable underwater, while on radar will be hard to dispell

[JmOz]

Current Suit

 

Here is V 1.4

Cost	Power	END
	Basic Systems, all slots: Extra Time 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-3/4), OIF (-1/2)
13	1) Protective Armor: Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points)
18	2) Enviromental Systems: Life Support , Eating: Character only has to eat once per week, Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents, Immunity: All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing (40 Active Points)
15	3) Radar System: Radar (Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Telescopic (+3)), Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages +1/2) (34 Active Points)
5	4) Radio System: High Range Radio Perception (12 Active Points)
2	5) IR Scopes: Infrared Perception (5 Active Points)
9	6) Fission Power Battery: Endurance Reserve (100 END, 10 REC) (20 Active Points)
2	7) Polorised Lenses: Flash Defense (5 points) (Hearing Group) (5 Active Points)
8	Fission Powered Systems: Elemental Control, 30-point powers, all slots: (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4)
8	1) Fission Powered Flight: Flight 10", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages +1/2) (30 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	3
8	2) Fission Powered Force Field: Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance 1/2 END (+1/4) (30 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	1
7	3) Fissioned Powered Strength Augmentation: +30 STR (30 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) (uses END Reserve)	3
34	Weapon Systems: Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots: (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4)
3u	1) Fission Blast: Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED) (60 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	6
3u	2) Low Powered Fission Blast: Energy Blast 9d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance 1/2 END (+1/4) (56 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	2
3u	3) Bolas: Entangle 3d6, 5 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 12 Charges (-1/4)
2u	4) Net mssile: Entangle 3d6, 5 DEF, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	5) Gas Missile: Energy Blast 3d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2), No Normal Defense Standard (+1), Continuous (+1) (52 Active Points); 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/2)
2u	6) Blast Missiles: Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	7) Bomb Missiles: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	8) Blinder Missiles: Flash 8d6 (Sight Group), Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)
2u	9) Micro Missiles: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (vs. PD) (60 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1)

Powers Cost: 150

[ChocolateMousje]

Incantations on the EC and multipower? Gadget suit? Fission stuff... where's the radiation damage shield?

 

Polarized Lenses, not polorized...

(/me runs)

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by JmOz

On the Str in the EC, a while ago someone asked if it ment that they had to take the lim or if the effect of the lim was automatic, IIRC the answer was that it had to be taken...

 

 

I am unsurprised that there was something like that somewhere: it seems to me that I remember seeing characters with EC's having that Limitation on stats in them. It's probably ok as long as all of the EC guidelines are in play, possibly not such a great idea if they're being ignored.

[Dr Lucky]

Just to the people who seem to have problems with an EC on a battlesuit, and suggest that they haven't used it in any official 5th Ed Champions stuff yet, check out page 118 of Champions Universe. Stalwart doesn't have an EC, but it is listed as what to give his armor to make him more powerful. That suggests to me that the designers don't have an intrinsic problem with the idea.