Everything's a Power

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

-- Characteristics are a static measurement. Without all the hooplah of "how did you build that?" we have a shared language wherein we know precisely what to expect from something with, say, 45 STR. Or an 18 INT, or a 0 COM (or even negative COM *shudder*).

 

Well, if such a system were to be adopted by anyone (yes, probably just one person), then the final step in its creation would be to create a series of pre-builds that would take the place of Characteristics. So you would still have the equivalent of a STR characteristic for anyone that wanted it. There would be two advantages to this:

 

1. You'd be able to custom build an individual character's STR score, allowing you to not have it give you, say, REC, but instead give you something else, if it was in your character conception.

 

2. You'd be able to not have a given Characteristic at all, if that suited your character.

 

This goes back to what another poster was referring to as a "base character", except in such a system the base character would be a blob of nothing waiting for Powers to be plugged in to make it into something.

 

"My God, it'll be beautiful." - Judge Doom

 

-- Skills are a shared language; sure, maybe "Conversation" is built as "Mind Control, RSR, RSR is subject to Skill v Skill Rolls) but it's simpler and more elegant to just call it "conversation" and be done. Again, it gives us a groundwork of shared language, and more importantly, makes someone who paid for "Mind Control, RSR, Subject to SvS contests" a little bit more special and a little bit "less normal."

 

Still mulling over that one. I find the idea of Super-Skills replacing Skills to be a little far-fetched without some serious work, but nevertheless appealing. If it's workable, great, if not I'd just as soon stick with my first thought of just putting a new Skill Power in.

 

I am, however, going to be putting some thought in the thread on following Derek's suggestion. If nothing else, it will make more Superskills.

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Probably a tad ambitious

 

Indeed yes, but you explained it better than I have been able to. No Rep to you! You know, because I gotta spread some around.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Okay. I build myself out of raw VPP.

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Okay. I build myself out of raw VPP.

 

heh. Sure, why not? Depending on how things go, it might turn out to be a viable concept.

 

I doubt it seriously, mind, but you never know.

[GamePhil]

Maneuvers as Powers

 

One of the things that specifically started me thinking about the original topic is the question of what exactly are Martial Arts, and why do they appear to get such a large cost break? The conclusion that I drew that is satisfactory to me is that they are effectively the equivalent of slots in a Multipower, or perhaps buying off Limitations on already-possessed Maneuvers, rather than full-blown Powers in their own right.

 

Basically, let's say that everybody gets Haymaker, Move Through, Move By, Dodge, Block and Grab. Martial Maneuvers are just less limited versions of these. Passing Strike is a Move By with less CV penalties that you don't take damage from (not that many people take damage from Move By's), for example.

 

Let us leave for the moment the Flying Dodge and similar maneuvers as they are defined in the FAQ.

 

So, let's say we are starting a character from nothingness, what I like to call a Null Character.

 

I am so witty it hurts.

 

Well, it has to be called something or I'll go on calling it a blob of nothingness.

 

If you want Maneuvers beyond the basics implied by your Powers (the DEX Power, if it exists, would imply a CV, having an EB would imply being able to attack with it in basic form, STR implies Grab and Punching (maybe), and so on), you'd buy them. +3 DCV, 1/2 Phase Combat Action to activate gives you Dodge, +4d6 HA with appropriate Limitations gives you a Haymaker for your Punch (you might have to have a series of Powers to give you Haymaker across the board, but that could be a Multipower or VPP), and so on.

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

To they extent they have a meaning other than just "stuff we mark off when we take damage," I'd say that BODY relates to physical mass, and STUN relates to pain tolerance (and secondarily, also to mass).

 

I've been thinking, and something like that might very well be sufficient. Some powers may be definitional in nature: that is, they may not give you abilities that you use so much as define what you are. The only problem I have with the idea of Body equating to having a solid form (I don't say "mass" since technically liquids and gases may not have Body but do have mass) is that I was hoping to simulate Irrreplacable Foci as part of the mix.

 

On the other hand, if buying a high enough Stun (and maybe CON) and using the Absolute Effect Rule is sufficient for Takes No Stun, the same could be applied to indestructable objects with Body.

[GamePhil]

Typical Base Character

 

All right, to get a base character with nothing, I would need to know what the current one has. This is my list:

 

Characteristics

Basic Combat Maneuvers

Everyman Skills

A minimum of the five senses, which I'd be happy to be pretty liberal with. That is, no needing to buy Detect Pain, Detect Heat/Cold, Detect Texture, etc, all of that would be Detect Tactile Sensation

The typical properties of a living, solid object, which may be associated with Powers or simply a matter of definition without a game mechanic attached. Mass, volume, dimensions, sentience, and so on.

 

Missing anything?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Missing the basic needs - breathable air, edible food, water etc.

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Missing the basic needs - breathable air' date=' edible food, water etc.[/quote']

 

Well, technically I said the typical properties of a living thing. However, I'll 'fess up and say that no, I hadn't thought of those, or any of the other things that might be considered Disadvantages of a base character.

 

Ugh, not sure I wanted to go there, but I did say starting from nothing.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

To me, stun is just a counting mechanism that you can apply sfx to, with mechanical implications (i.e. unconsciousness etc). Body is slightly more complex, but basically the same.

 

Clearly stun is not necessary (see automatons, vehicles etc) but if it is not there it needs to be replaced with something that dispenses with it (see automatons etc).

 

A 'count mechanism' is a fundamental particle in the Hero Underverse (the shadowy realm where Hero mechanics and powers are constructed).

 

It has long been a dream of mine that we reduce the Hero system to its absolute fundamentals: Attack, Defend, Count, Change, whatever. Then we would rebuild it's complexity using the fundamantal rules, so that you have powers like Drain and Energy Blast and Armour, all built on the same principles and useable, as a final product, in much th esame way talents are constructed abilities that you don't need to know the build of to use.

 

That would mean the real tinkerers could build everything from fundamental partices, but the majority of Heroites would just utilise end-user constructs. The extra comlpexity would be embedded, but not make life more difficult for the average user, indeed it need not even be visible to the average user.

 

I live in hope

 

I find your ideas intriguing, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter and hear about your other products and/or services.

 

I'm at work right now and can't give more of a response than that, but I will later.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Typical Base Character

 

Missing anything?

 

Basic locomotion and two hands that can exert STR and do fine manipulation.

 

Doc

[GamePhil]

Re: Typical Base Character

 

Basic locomotion and two hands that can exert STR and do fine manipulation.

 

Doc

 

Movement powers and limbs, check.

[GamePhil]

Str

 

All right, starting with STR I'm going to start breaking down the Characteristics first.

 

STR is:

The power to use physical force.

Lifting power.

Grabbing and holding power.

Physical damage.

Throwing range.

 

That's pretty standard, I think. I'm reasonably happy with that, and don't really want to separate them out into different things unless a compelling reason is presented to do it.

 

In HERO, it is also several Figured Characteristics and extra Leaping.

 

Lacking the Power of STR means that you cannot use physical force. With regards to affecting the world around you, that's pretty clear.

 

Would it also mean, though, that you could not move yourself about in a physical manner? And how much would that matter, when Movement Powers are all based in special effect and you could just say your Running is on a platform of energy that moves about? It appears to only limit what Special Effects you can take in this regard.

 

Now, using the HERO STR chart, negative STR might be a bit of a problem. Is there any real disadvantage (lower case) to taking a negative score when not taking it means that you can't lift anything? I'm leary of people having to take a 40 STR (or whatever) just to be up to the same level as a regular HERO character has at 10.

[GamePhil]

Life Support

 

One of the odd things about starting with a ball-o-nothingness is that you also start with Full Life Support, as you have no needs in that form. So, would it be better to sell it back when you become "real", or take Disadvantages for your needs? Or would becoming a real (choose one of: boy, girl, hermaphrodite, other) imply you had all the normal needs?

 

For the moment, I'm going with taking Disadvantages and will discuss what I think that would mean. This is the more complicated route, and without fairly general Disads (You don't eat, you react like you're starving, and leave it at that) would cause arguments and confusion about what it is to starve/thirst/etc. On the other hand, it would only have to be done once for all of humankind.

 

Doing it this way has the advantage of flexibility. Once you have established the Disadvantages as a human has them, you can then go on to other things and modify them at will. For example, a car needs fuel and air to run, with some exceptions, but doesn't take damage when it doesn't get them, it just shuts down. It might take damage if run without water or oil, but not if it's just sitting there. Likewise, an alien might go catatonic but not die if it doesn't get sufficient nutrients.

 

This would also reduce the use of Life Support as a separate Power, since if you wanted it you would just not take the Disadvantage. It might come up if you didn't have the ability inheritently (it's through a Focus, or is a Dispel-able ability, and so on) or if you wanted to provide it to others, but not if it's just part of your nature and can't really be shut off. You might also buy off the Disad with Advantages and Limitations, which would require a modification to the rules to allow a Power, "Buying Off Disads".

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

It has long been a dream of mine that we reduce the Hero system to its absolute fundamentals: Attack, Defend, Count, Change, whatever.

 

I would like to see that, as well, but will try to keep away from it as much as possible in this topic and leave Powers as they stand alone. However, the fact that I do *like* the idea may show through at times, even though it's not really the topic at hand, so I thought I'd mention that in warning

[Sean Waters]

Re: Typical Base Character

 

All right, to get a base character with nothing, I would need to know what the current one has. This is my list:

 

Characteristics

Basic Combat Maneuvers

Everyman Skills

A minimum of the five senses, which I'd be happy to be pretty liberal with. That is, no needing to buy Detect Pain, Detect Heat/Cold, Detect Texture, etc, all of that would be Detect Tactile Sensation

The typical properties of a living, solid object, which may be associated with Powers or simply a matter of definition without a game mechanic attached. Mass, volume, dimensions, sentience, and so on.

 

Missing anything?

 

I'm going to be needing some genitals.

 

 

What?

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Few games I've been in (ok, no games I've been in, but I'm a bit of a prude) require such, nor are they usually well-defined in game-mechanical terms when they are required.

 

[Lucius]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Few games I've been in (ok, no games I've been in, but I'm a bit of a prude) require such, nor are they usually well-defined in game-mechanical terms when they are required.

 

 

Most games I've been in assume they are there, but we don't talk about them...

 

We did have a thread on the topic once.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40525

 

More than once.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45604

 

For your purposes, you may have to address the implied "Duplication" power that enables organisms to reproduce.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary doesn't have genitals, or need them. It reproduces otherwise.

[Ganesh]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

You've mentioned maneuvers, which have struck me as the hardest thing to rectify in an "everything's a power" system. They do look like some weird kind of multipower or something, and I haven't any good idea of rectifying them.

 

My own efforts divided everything into Powers and Skills; powers had incremental and comparative effects, while "skills" included things with simple on/off toggles: movement modes, sense groups, things you can deflect. Sensory Manipulation (my catch-all sense-affecting power) kind of straddled the two.

[Ganesh]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

Most games I've been in assume they are there, but

For your purposes, you may have to address the implied "Duplication" power that enables organisms to reproduce.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Probably more of a "summon." Most people buy the power when it comes up, and pay off the points with DNPC. Although some choose Hunteds instead...

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Typical Base Character

 

I'm going to be needing some genitals.

 

Sean Waters' Genitals: Extra Limb (5 points), Inherent (+1/4), Extremely Limited and Specialized Manipulation (-2), Real Cost: 2 points. Minus 1 point Disadvantage*: Able to sire children. Total Cost: 1 Point

 

Female Genitals: Extra Limb (5 points), Inherent (+1/4), Extremely Limited and Specialized Manipulation (-2), Real Cost: 2 points. Minus 1 point Disadvantage*: Able to bear children. Total Cost: 1 Points.

 

For game balance, assume fully functional Hermaphrodites cost 2 points. However, they also have Distinctive Features depending on how common Hermaphrodites are in the campaign.

 

 

 

* It is considered a 1 point Life Support to be temporarily unable to sire/bear children, therefore...

[Opal]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

The effects of 0 STN and 0 Body are already established. A 0 BOD character isn't actualy dead, and is easy to stabilize, a 0 STN character is aware but unable to act. So that could be the default state for characters who don't buy STN or BOD.

 

Alternately, you could assume that everyone is normally awake & aware, but is nocked out or to negative body by any attack that penetrates thier defenses. STN and BOD, then, could either be, effectively, additional 'ablative' (not the limitation) defense that gets used up or restored. Or, they could be a limitted form of some sort of "Cannot be KO'd" or "Cannot be Killed" power.

[GamePhil]

Re: Everything's a Power

 

The effects of 0 STN and 0 Body are already established. A 0 BOD character isn't actualy dead, and is easy to stabilize, a 0 STN character is aware but unable to act. So that could be the default state for characters who don't buy STN or BOD.

 

Well, that's simple. It could work and shall be given serious consideration.

 

Alternately, you could assume that everyone is normally awake & aware, but is nocked out or to negative body by any attack that penetrates thier defenses. STN and BOD, then, could either be, effectively, additional 'ablative' (not the limitation) defense that gets used up or restored. Or, they could be a limitted form of some sort of "Cannot be KO'd" or "Cannot be Killed" power.

 

I kind of like the idea of using the Absolute Effect Rule to get automata, but something will work itself out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Typical Base Character

 

Sean Waters' Genitals: Extra Limb (5 points), Inherent (+1/4), Extremely Limited and Specialized Manipulation (-2), Real Cost: 2 points. Minus 1 point Disadvantage*: Able to sire children. Total Cost: 1 Point

 

Female Genitals: Extra Limb (5 points), Inherent (+1/4), Extremely Limited and Specialized Manipulation (-2), Real Cost: 2 points. Minus 1 point Disadvantage*: Able to bear children. Total Cost: 1 Points.

 

For game balance, assume fully functional Hermaphrodites cost 2 points. However, they also have Distinctive Features depending on how common Hermaphrodites are in the campaign.

 

 

 

* It is considered a 1 point Life Support to be temporarily unable to sire/bear children, therefore...

 

 

Extra limb?

 

I LIKE that! (that is a thumb, isn't it?)

 

Can I have a bun, please?

[GamePhil]

Generic Attack Power

 

This is related to the subject of the thread tangentially, so I'll put it in.

 

In rough outline:

Attack Power:

 

This Power does damage to the target. In order to determine the precise effects, several things must be defined.

 

Attacking/Defending Ability: What abilities are used to determine if the target is hit. eg. OCV vs. DCV.

 

Defense: What ability subtracts from the damage caused. eg. PD, ED, Mental Defense.

 

Counter: What ability is damaged/targeted by the Attack. eg. STUN, BODY.

 

Effect: What happens to the target: what ability takes damage, what happens when an ability is overcome by a certain amount, and so on. What happens to the target when/if the Counter is reduced to certain points. eg. Unconsciousness from having Stun at 0, -10, -20, and -30 or more.

 

Recovery: How the target recovers from the effect. eg. REC, being kissed by a princess, breaking free of a mental power.

 

Attacks are generally Cumulative, and multiple attacks against a single target that have a similar Effect will add together. For example, STUN damage from any source adds to being unconscious. All or Nothing Attacks do not generally add together.

 

Attack Powers can have Secondary, Tertiary, and so on, effects as well as their primary effect. For example, Energy Blast does Stun as its primary effect (attempting to render the target unconscious) and Body as secondary, but can also Stun the target and do Knockback (based on the Stun damage and Body damage, respectively) as tertiary effects.

 

Attacks that have rarer methods of defending against are generally more expensive. Attacks against higher Counters (Stun is usually higher than EGO) are generally less expensive.

 

So:

 

Energy Blast:

Attacking/Defending Ability: OCV/DCV

Defense: PD, ED

Counter: Stun, Body secondary

Effect: Unconsciousness, secondary Death/Maiming, tertiary Knockback and Stunning.

Recovery: REC

 

Killing Attack: Pretty much like EB, but with Stun and Body/Unconsciousness and Death reversed.

 

Transform:

Attacking/Defending Ability: OCV/DCV

Defense: Power Defense

Counter: Body, Non-damaging (BODY is not reduced)

Effect: As defined.

Recovery: As defined.

 

Mind Control:

Attacking/Defending Ability: OECV/DECV

Defense: Mental Defense

Counter: Ego, All or Nothing, Non-damaging

Effect: Act as commanded if Ego is exceeded by a certain amount.

Recovery: Breakout roll.

 

Drain:

Attacking/Defending Ability: OCV/DCV, no range.

Defense: Power Defense

Counter: Targeted Power/Characteristic/etc.

Effect: Lose points in targeted ability. Some abilities will force a roll to act if it is reduced to 0 or less.

Recovery: Recover 5 pts on each Post-Segment 12.

 

And so on.