How do you balance encounters?

[Wayside]

One thing that has always bothered me about hero system is that I have no idea how to balance an encounter in Hero System.

 

D&D was easy, each creature has a CR and there is a chart that can be easily modified for different party levels and sizes. Even if a group was comprised of 3 3rd levels, a 9th level, and 2 6th levels, I could figure out what challenge of enemy they should generally be fighting. Yes, it was far from perfect, but it at the very least got you close.

 

Hero system does so many things so well, but it never discusses this topic. I know there are exceptions and this is a generalization, but that's all I'm looking for.

 

Generally speaking, how many points should enemies be?

What if you have a single character, should he be fighting an enemy of equal points? What if there are four enemies? How many points should they be built on? What if you have a group of four 250 point characters? Should they be fighting four 250 points enemies? What If they are fighting a single enemy? or two? or eight?

 

I considered looking at the duplication power as a guideline. Assuming a 250 point character should be fighting another 250 point character (which I doubt is correct since that would result in a presumably equal chance of loss as a success). The enemy 250 point character could buy a 250 point duplicate for 50 points making two 200 point characters. But that would obviously deteriorate since each doubling only costs 5 more points. I'm just lost in general on this front. Anyone who can shed some light on this?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

Ultimately it relies on what you want to achieve by these encounters. I try to balance them into catagories.

 

Champion - More Powerful or As Powerful as PCs

Elite - As Powerful as PCs

Veteran - As Powerful or Less Powerful than PCs

Regular - Competant Normals

Green - Incompetant Normals

 

Large Numbers of NPCs vs PCs are always Greens, Regulars, & Veterans.

 

Champions should require the PCs working together to defeat or allow one PC his moment in the spotlight for a dramatic fight scene.

 

Hope that helps

 

QM

[Nolgroth]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

You can sort of come up with a CR.

 

Depending on how you want to define it, I usually compare DEX, Speed, Combat Value, Defense and Damage. In this case, Damage could mean anything from straight up Energy Blast to Mind Control.

 

Generally speaking, if the NPCs/monsters are roughly equal to the number of characters, you have a fairly balanced but tough fight. If they are more powerful than the characters in some way, then I reduce the number by what seems appropriate. If they are less powerful, toss a few more in. HERO really is a season to taste sort of thing, so I have been adjusting my own combat balance.

 

But balance isn't the only feature in combat. Smarts are a big thing. If a single kobold sets a large number of traps, uses his small size to his advantage, and runs the PCs ragged, that could be more challenging than five orc warriors.

 

Now how do I adapt Tucker's Kobolds to Sci Fi....

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

One in each hand

 

Seriously though, folks, I'd say the very best way is experience, and bear in mind that even the most balanced encounter can get you into horrible trouble if the dice do against you. Point balancing...well, unless all characters are designed for combat, it doesn't work that well.

 

Generally, unless the encounter is a climactic one, try and have the antagonists running at -1 SPD, -2 CV and -2 DCs of damage to the Heroes, and try not to outnumber then more than 2 to 1.

 

Also, don't bring out 'The Art Of War' for street thugs.

[Alibear]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

Start small and build up slowly from there. Once they handle lesser encounters you'll get a rough idea on how they'll handle bigger foes.

 

Bad guys would normally be built on 25% - 30% less points than the PC's as I never stat out non combat stuff unless they are very important and likely to be regularly occurring NPCs.

 

Things like KS, contacts, transport fam.s and the like are really for the PCs not my NPCs combat character sheets.

 

As ever though, experience running combats is an invaluable guideline.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

One in each hand

 

Seriously though, folks, I'd say the very best way is experience, and bear in mind that even the most balanced encounter can get you into horrible trouble if the dice do against you. Point balancing...well, unless all characters are designed for combat, it doesn't work that well.

 

Generally, unless the encounter is a climactic one, try and have the antagonists running at -1 SPD, -2 CV and -2 DCs of damage to the Heroes, and try not to outnumber then more than 2 to 1.

 

Also, don't bring out 'The Art Of War' for street thugs.

 

Holy crap. The apocalypse is fast approaching.

 

I got through an entire post of Sean's... and not only do I understand it without bending my mind into new and interesting shapes... I agree with everything he said.

 

This new world is a strange, and terrifying place...

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

Holy crap. The apocalypse is fast approaching.

 

I got through an entire post of Sean's... and not only do I understand it without bending my mind into new and interesting shapes... I agree with everything he said.

 

This new world is a strange, and terrifying place...

 

I'm only doing it to freak you out - normal service will be resumed shortly

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

I'm only doing it to freak you out - normal service will be resumed shortly

 

OH. WHEW. Well, I feel much better then. I suppose I shouldn't have eaten all those beans while in my bunker last night, though, whilst awaiting the inevitable...

[eternal_sage]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

....you two are strange....

 

guess thats why i like you!!

 

as far as balancing encounters though, my rule is the rule of 50%:

 

can 50% of the party hit it? can 50% of the party damage it? is it slower than 50% of the party? can it miss 50% of the party more than 50% of the time? can it do less than 50% of the total BODY/STUN in one attack to more than 50% of the party?

 

if the answer to all of these is yes, exactly, treat it as a CR of roughly equivalant rating to the party. if the numbers are higher, the CR is less (battles are easier), if the numbers are lower then the CR is higher (battles are much tougher). i'd say the fun threshold is 25% either way, over all, of course, some things will be lower and some higher. it works out in the long run.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

I wish I had a strict rule to share, but I usually use an approach based on feel from the following:

 

1) Combat Values. How often will the PCs be able to hit the Enemy? How often with the Enemy be able to hit the PCs?

 

2) Defenses and Damage Soaking (includes DEF, CON, STUN, etc). How many hits can the enemy take before going down? How likely is the enemy to be stunned? At one point will the enemy probably turn and run?

 

3) Attacks (includes DCs and special attacks). How many times does the enemy need to hit the PCs to take them out? How likely is he to do Body? How likely is he to Stun the heroes? Does he have any special attacks that can turn the battle (large area Flash, mind control, etc)? Any attacks that bypass defenses? Any special tactics that make him more of a threat than he seems (say a high Teamwork skill or a fondness for sniper attacks)? Any special flaws that make him less of a threat (say an easy to discover vulnerability, or attacks that quickly chew up his END)?

 

4) Purpose. Is this meant to be a major fight? A joke fight? Do you want to seriously challenge the players, or just add some color on the way to the real battle? What is the goal of the enemy? To steal something? To kill a PC? To perform a ritual? An enemy out to kill a PC and meant as a major challenge should be designed and played very differently from an enemy who doesn't want to fight at all and is meant as a joke before the main battle.

 

Sometimes I get it wrong, but the above approach usually works for me.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

You have to watch out for exotic attacks and unusual tactics too. HERO has a lot of options. It's easy to make a relatively low powered character that has a combination of abilities that the players are just not able to deal with. Of course, sometimes that's the point...

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

I like the 50% rule

 

One thing you need to consider is tactics, though. Don't make the first few villains tactical geniuses/experienced mercs or whatever, then if things ARE going badly, you can make some pretty basic tactical errors, and cut the players a break.

 

One desperately USEFUL tactic is, say you are fighting 4 on 4, rather than pairing off and trying to take one opponent down, all concentrate on one. Even if you don't coordinate (and you might as well) there is a good chance to take them out that phase. Even if it means all of your team have taken some damage, it is now 4 on 3...

 

You can sometimes teach the players tactics by sending a disciplined enemy against them, whose mission does not really involve the PCs - they just want them KO'd. Hopefully, when all the whining is over they'll have learned something.

 

In fact, that's another good tip - don't make the first few combats critical - if the PCs do get beaten, you don;t want it derailing the whole scenario. Alternatively, have a passing NPC Hero step in and help out if things go too wrong (but don't do that often).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

To determine if your PC's can handle an encounter there are three things you need to determine;

 

Combat Value: Compare the combat values of the combatants involved. If the CV's are comparable (equal to within 1pt difference) then the fight should be fairly even. If the CV of the enemy is 2pts higher then the PC may be in trouble. If the CV of the PC is 2pts or more higher, then the PC will have an easy time. Its okay to compare the average CV of the parties involved.

 

Dex and Speed: Faster characters tend to have more options in combat. If one side is faster than the other, that will swing the odds in their favor.

 

Attack vs Def: Compare the average damage that an opponents attack will do vs the Def of the PC's. If the average damage is close to the Def, the attack can do some damage but isn't overly powerful. If the average damage is less than the Def of the character, then the opponent will have a difficult time hurting the PC. If the damage is significantly higher than the Def, then the character is in serious trouble if they get hit by that attack. You can compare the same with the PC's attack vs the enemy's Def and this will tell you how easily the PC can take the character out.

 

There are many other minor factors to consider in combat including Body and Stun levels, various Powers, tactics and skills. But in general the three above are the main one's to consider in combat and all the other factors will revolve around these three.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

You forgot munchies. If they brought food to the session, you want them back next week, so you should be having all the villain's hunteds turn up, rolling their unluck and...what? Why are you looking at me like that?

[OddHat]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

No game the players can walk away from is a good one. I suggest krazy glue and bear traps, at a minimum.

[CTaylor]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

How the character is built makes a big difference, but my rule of thumb works like this: take the average point value of the party. Add 50 points to that for each character past the first (so if there are 6 guys in the group that are an average of 250 points, then you have 250+250 for 500 points total). That's enough power to challenge the whole group, alone. Again, if the guy's speed is low or he has few AE powers, etc it's going to be less of a challenge, but for raw point value, it seems to work well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How do you balance encounters?

 

As it happens, I have a document on this subject. 3e Opposition vs HERO Opposition

 

Having said that...

 

One thing that has always bothered me about hero system is that I have no idea how to balance an encounter in Hero System.

 

D&D was easy, each creature has a CR and there is a chart that can be easily modified for different party levels and sizes. Even if a group was comprised of 3 3rd levels, a 9th level, and 2 6th levels, I could figure out what challenge of enemy they should generally be fighting. Yes, it was far from perfect, but it at the very least got you close.

 

This really depends on if you trust the CR's assigned to individual creatures. I can tell you first hand from my own experience both running, playing, and converting 3e monsters that the CR system is no less arbitrary and inaccurate than any other method of assessing comparative threat levels. It becomes increasingly meaningless at higher levels as the abilities and differences between different classes becomes more polarized. Also, at any level, the composition of a particular playgroup has a huge impact on what is and isnt challenging for that group.

 

 

 

Hero system does so many things so well, but it never discusses this topic. I know there are exceptions and this is a generalization, but that's all I'm looking for.

 

It's a largely meaningless question in the HERO System... or rather its really an infinite multitude of questions hiding behind a single question. It is effectively unanswerable. The "right" approach varies widely based upon your group, your needs, and the nature of the challenge you wish to present.

 

I mean, stop to consider for a second that each HERO System character is basically a list of custom mechanics combined with some generally agreed upon tropes such as specific skills, and a set of fixed stats that mostly only matter in a relative context.

 

How can anyone not intimately familiar with your campaign, the characters involved, the intended tone, etc really answer the question of "what is a valid threat to present on Saturday's game?". Sure, if you give the characters 411's and some idea of what you are looking for you can get advice, but its only as good as the completeness of the information you provided. There's also the consideration of in-game implementation -- even if say I gave you advice that was somehow spot on and that I could step in and use in an acceptable fashion there is no guarantee that you will be able to execute it for the same effect. Experience and interpretation both kick in and can lead to different outcomes.

 

Generally speaking, how many points should enemies be?

What if you have a single character, should he be fighting an enemy of equal points? What if there are four enemies? How many points should they be built on? What if you have a group of four 250 point characters? Should they be fighting four 250 points enemies? What If they are fighting a single enemy? or two? or eight?

The points comparison context falls apart quickly. It's not a matter of how many points, its a matter of how those points are spent. In general relative OCV / DCV can be looked at but there are other factors such as AoEs and "control" powers that circumvent the OCV / DCV comparison entirely.

 

A more useful metric to look at is average damage vs average defenses vs number of actions and probability of hitting. If you determine that character A can only take about 2 hits from character B and that character B can hit character A 75% of the time, then you may have a significant threat on your hands. However this isnt perfect either since evasion and circumstantially useful abilities can kick in -- if character A is able to fly or otherwise stay out of the range of Character B, or go desolid for instance then its not really as meaningful.

 

 

I considered looking at the duplication power as a guideline. Assuming a 250 point character should be fighting another 250 point character (which I doubt is correct since that would result in a presumably equal chance of loss as a success). The enemy 250 point character could buy a 250 point duplicate for 50 points making two 200 point characters. But that would obviously deteriorate since each doubling only costs 5 more points. I'm just lost in general on this front. Anyone who can shed some light on this?

 

Again, you are making the mistake of thinking points translate directly into combat capability. I could design a 250 points character with no combat relevance, and a 50 point character with nothing but combat relevance and in a fight the 50 pointer would almost certainly win. A particularly vivid example that I've cited elsewhere is I distinctly recall a scenario where a 75 point "orc" -- really just a write up of a damage delivery mechanism with a label attached to it one-shotted a 500 point combat capable Dwarf with a head hit. The GM was a softy and fudged it to maintain the story momentum and...well, as I said they were a real carebear of a GM..., but according to the dice the Dwarf was a goner.

 

Remember, BODY and STUN and defenses don't auto-scale like they do in a level based game. If the character doesn't pay points to improve them or exist in a setting where they gain items / gear to make them tougher w/o paying points then they don't get any better just because the character is now 500 points vs 150 points.

 

Which brings us to this: an important thing to consider is what I call the one-shot or chump-drop factor. Under normal circumstances (not relying on some unlikely chain of events or very fluky outcome) can a particular threat one shot most of the PC's? Can they in turn be one-shotted by most of the PC's? If there are multiple opponents aggregate the chance to hit reliably. If one opponent hits 50% of the time, how often do two opponents of similar attribute hit taking twice as many attacks?

 

If the answer to the question of one-shotting on either side is yes you probably have an unbalanced encounter. This may not be wrong -- it may be entirely intentional for the PC's to mow thru a horde of weaker foes to give the players an ego boost. It may be intentional for the PC's to encounter a threat that they simply are not able to deal with via force yet and have to flee from or attempt to deal with in other ways.

 

Ultimately, only you can make decisions of this nature, and the best mechanism to get comfortable doing so is with experience. Start off conservative, using less and adding more as needed, and eventually you will become comfortable with it to the point that it's second nature.