HA with Double Knockback

[MarkusDark]

Flipping through the Star Hero Book, I came across an item on page 149. They are a pair of gloves that do the following:

 

+5d6 HA - double knockback.

 

As I had a character with this once and the GM asked for me to remove it because it didn't make sense, I thought I'd ask here for some clarification. If I have the above item, how does that affect me if I have a 15 Strength? I can't imagine that I get an additional +3d6 of double knockback - otherwise, that would be a real cheap way to add modifiers to strength.

 

Figured I'd ask here before on the rules board as Steve has enough work.

[Talon]

See pages 270-272 of FREd. In short, you do get +3d6 with Double Knockback -- you get to add a number of STR damage dice equal to the number of HA damage dice, straight, no pro-rating for advantages or anything. If you had 25 STR, you could do 10d6. If you had 30 STR, you could still only do 10d6 -- once you hit that limit, that's it. It's definitely an odd rule.

[DoItHTH]

I cant recall exactly the advantage cost for double knockback off hand. Lets suppose it is (+1/2). Then

 

5d6 HA (+1/2) double knockback 15+7=22 pts

 

Therefore if you had the str you could apply 22 str to your HA to have a maximum of 10d6 HA double knockback. You do not get the double knockback on your str for free since now you need to apply 22 str instead of the 15 str you normally would have needed to get the extra 5d6 HA without the double knockback advantage.

 

If all you had was 15 str you could only add 3d6 HA with double knockback.

 

Is this correct?

 

Hmmm now this seems weird to me since 15 str normally gives 3d6 how come using a HA I would get +5d6 for the same str?

 

[Talon]

Originally posted by DoItHTH

Is this correct?

 

It's closer to how it should be, but it's not correct. You get to add STR to HA, up to the amount of HA dice, without considering Advantages on the HA.

[DoItHTH]

So you do get to completely ignore the advantage when figuring how much your str boosts and yet still get the advantage?

[Talon]

Yup. You could have Advantages worth +4 on the HA, and your STR would still add 1 for 1. Finding abuses of this rule is left as an exercise for the reader.

[MarkusDark]

Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps I should just sit down and read FREd from cover to cover. Then again, I have some other plans for the next four days.

[Hugh Neilson]

The more appropriate answer should be divide your STR by the advantaged power (eg. double knockback is +3/4, and 25 STR/1.75 = 14.28 - I'd round to 15 - so +3d6.).

 

This is the rule for KA's and movement-based additions, so I'm not sure why it isn't the rule overall.

 

The present system, to me, means "never put a damage advantage on STR, just buy half your desired STR damage as a hand attack with the required advantage(s) and let this rules hole do the rest.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The more appropriate answer should be divide your STR by the advantaged power (eg. double knockback is +3/4, and 25 STR/1.75 = 14.28 - I'd round to 15 - so +3d6.).

 

This is the rule for KA's and movement-based additions, so I'm not sure why it isn't the rule overall.

 

The present system, to me, means "never put a damage advantage on STR, just buy half your desired STR damage as a hand attack with the required advantage(s) and let this rules hole do the rest.

 

If you have a 60 strength, you can either pay the 45 points to add the Double KB to all 12d6 or you can pay 35 points for a +6d6 HA with Double KB and bump it up to 12d6 with existing strength. There is a 10 point difference. Now, if you lower your strength to 30, still able to do the 12d6 and save a total of 40 points, but you lose out on the stun, PD and other strength related areas.

 

Note, in the case of a 1/2 advantage (such as armor piercing) it is a wash, both areas (just the advantage on 60 str or the +6d6 HA) cost you 30 points.

 

Here's the other case in point. If I have AP on all of my strength, do I get AP if I Haymaker or use any other H-T-H attack other than the standard attack?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by MarkusDark

If you have a 60 strength, you can either pay the 45 points to add the Double KB to all 12d6 or you can pay 35 points for a +6d6 HA with Double KB and bump it up to 12d6 with existing strength. There is a 10 point difference. Now, if you lower your strength to 30, still able to do the 12d6 and save a total of 40 points, but you lose out on the stun, PD and other strength related areas.

 

Note, in the case of a 1/2 advantage (such as armor piercing) it is a wash, both areas (just the advantage on 60 str or the +6d6 HA) cost you 30 points.

 

But if I was only buying a 30 STR to begin with, I get something for nothing/

 

Here's the other case in point. If I have AP on all of my strength, do I get AP if I Haymaker or use any other H-T-H attack other than the standard attack?

 

According to the rules, they add straight dice, regardless of advantages. This one's a bit easier to swallow since the maneuvers are pre-defined and available to everyone, although the guy with advantages on his attack powers still gets something of a freebie.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by MarkusDark

If you have a 60 strength, you can either pay the 45 points to add the Double KB to all 12d6 or you can pay 35 points for a +6d6 HA with Double KB and bump it up to 12d6 with existing strength.

 

Let's really point whore this. I want 8d6 AP Double Knockback. I can:

 

Buy +30 STR and make all my STR AP, Double KB (50 pts). Net cost 80 pts.

 

Or I can buy +10 STR and buy 4d6 HA AP, Double KB (30 pts) for a net cost of 40 points. Assuming a Supers campaign, I've also retained the option of taking Normal Characteristic Maxima for 20 points, for a 60 point advantage over buying the advantages on my STR. I can buy +10 STUN, +4 REC and +4 PD and still have 18 (or 38) points left over.

 

If NCM apply automatically, my second option still costs 40 points, but my first would cost an extra 45 points, for a total of 125.

 

Of course, I lose the extra leaping, carrying capacity, etc. but if the attack is all I'm looking for, the HA is a clear winner.

 

Isn't there a rule that says if there are two ways to do something, I'm supposed to pick the expensive one?

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The more appropriate answer should be divide your STR by the advantaged power (eg. double knockback is +3/4, and 25 STR/1.75 = 14.28 - I'd round to 15 - so +3d6.).

 

This is the rule for KA's and movement-based additions, so I'm not sure why it isn't the rule overall.

 

Because HA damage in a supers game isn't capped.

 

So, if you have 60 Str, that prorates to 34.28 Str, so you can add 7d6 damage (rounding the same way) to the 4d6 HA for a total of 11d6. Cost 50 for the Str and 23 for the HA, costs 73 points.

 

It makes Str, which is already a good buy, an even better buy.

 

If you're going to do a prorating for Advantages with HA's, you have to put a double dice cap. Or else you end up favoring the brick, who will create a multipower of 1 die advantaged HAs to take advantage of the situation.

 

D

 

PS a lot of GMs get a real twist in their shorts over Naked Advantages (which are an optional thing). So, just adding Double KB as a naked advantage might not be possible.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by misterdeath

Because HA damage in a supers game isn't capped.

 

So, if you have 60 Str, that prorates to 34.28 Str, so you can add 7d6 damage (rounding the same way) to the 4d6 HA for a total of 11d6. Cost 50 for the Str and 23 for the HA, costs 73 points.

 

If he wants to pay the points (maybe he is), and if I'm prepared to allow a 24.75 DC attack (NFL and I don't mean football!).

 

It makes Str, which is already a good buy, an even better buy.

 

And yet I've never seen a group of gamers, each designing their own characters, show up with all bricks...

 

If you're going to do a prorating for Advantages with HA's, you have to put a double dice cap. Or else you end up favoring the brick, who will create a multipower of 1 die advantaged HAs to take advantage of the situation.

 

No, I have to squelch characters designed to take advantage of a possible weakness in the system.

 

PS a lot of GMs get a real twist in their shorts over Naked Advantages (which are an optional thing). So, just adding Double KB as a naked advantage might not be possible.

 

1. EVERYTHING is optional.

 

2. Many items which are "with GM approval" have specific and numerous examples which "the GM should allow" (eg. flash defense in a gadget pool)

 

3. How many GM's deny bricks the ability to purchase reduced END on their STR? That's a "naked advantage" by the above definition.

[Talon]

I have an article on the current rules, and a proposed house rule which "normalizes" the 270-272 damage adding rules, at http://www.shalott.com/hero.

 

EDIT: Made link work!

[Demonsong]

Geoff its a bad link. Or at least it is a bad link for me.

 

As a GM, I make all character reduce there STR by the appropriate advantage (excluding reduced endurance advantages). To me it only makes since. Why would you have to do it for HKA and not normal attack? It’s just my opinion.

 

+5D6, + 3/4 KB X2

 

So you would need a STR of 44 to get a full 10D6 KB X2

 

Or about 8.75 points for STR per +1D6.

[Grailknight]

I'm glad that i'm not the only person that doesn't like the current rules for adding advantaged HAs to STR. I've hated this power since 4th and 5th made it worse with the rules for adding damage. [although to be fair, 5th changed the cost to 5 pts. per die to balance it.] Despite my dislike, I do see that it is a valid way to represent many gernre effects. Reading this topic got me thinking so I reread the power in FREd and came up with a possible solution.

HA is not a separate power, HA is a disadvantage!

I will just use the mandatory HA disadvantage at its -1/2 value and then apply it to additional STR. I think all the problems and gnashed teeth come from regarding this as a separate power that has special rules for adding to damage. If you make it a disadvantage, all the justifications for STR adds go away because PARTIALLY LIMITED STR IS NOT GOING TO GIVE ADVANTAGES TO YOUR NON-LIMITED STR! Of course, I could be way off base here but this seems to be an elegant solution that is even implied in the HA writeup.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And yet I've never seen a group of gamers, each designing their own characters, show up with all bricks...

 

I have, Bricks in some form anyways (40 Str + MA. 40 Str + HA, 60 Str, 30 Str + Multipower of brick tricks.) but that's neither here nor there.

 

No, I have to squelch characters designed to take advantage of a possible weakness in the system.

 

Sure. And you have to squelch characters using Multiform, or Duplication, or Summoning, or BOECV Entangles, or all kinds of other things.

 

You see a Highly Advantaged HA, you know right off the bat that it's going to be trouble, and act accordingly.

 

I'm not saying that it can't be a problem. But, just about everything in this very free form system can be made into a problem if you have the right twisted guy making things.

 

So your comment about "All things being optional" is true.

 

It's a possibly broken rule, in that it gives a lot of benefit for the cost. So does Str, so does Multiform, so does any number of things.

 

I don't see it as that big of a deal. You do. That's the magic of house rules.

 

D

[Blue]

I've always applied the strength to the active points rather than just flatly adding DCs to the effect. And I don't think I'm going to change this. That's the privilege of buying the game: Changing the rules to however you want

 

But that is just about the only rule I can think of that I've intentionally changed.

 

ClubGuy has a double-kb club, 4D6 HA and 20 STR. Under the rules he'd get 8D6 HA + Double KB. Makes more sense to me that with double KB being a +1/2 that it be mroe like 6-1/2D6 + Double KB.

[Zed-F]

Double KB is a +3/4 advantage. To make it simpler, I'll use double AP instead, for a +1 advantage.

 

I'm pretty sure the way the rules are written, it works as follows:

 

Suppose I have a 4d6 Double AP HA. Each DC is worth 5 AP and is worth 1/2d6 of double AP damage (FREd 269). It has 8 base DC, so the most it can normally be added to is up to 16 DC (8d6 Double AP.)

- If I have 10 STR, I can make it a 5d6 Double AP HA.

- If I have 15 STR, I can still only make it a 5 1/2d6 Double AP HA.

- If I have 13 STR, I can still make it only a 5 1/2d6 since there's no such thing as 1/2 a DC (see the rules FAQ.)

- If I have 40 STR, I can make it a 8d6 Double AP HA.

- If I have 60 STR, and am in a superheroic game (better be!) I can make it a 10d6 HA, but I will lose the double AP advantage. (See the FAQ -- the same applies in reverse for using a combat maneuver that adds damage with STR bought with an advantage.)

 

I can check FREd when I get home but I am pretty sure you do NOT get +1 DC per 5 STR with an advantaged attack, nor can you endlessly pump a cheap advantaged attack with STR to get a moderately powerful advantaged attack.

 

To use the 5d6 Double Knockback HA example, each DC is still 5 points, but the number of DC you will need to boost your attack an extra D6 will stagger. You will need 8.75 AP to boost your attack by 1 die, or 4.375 to boost it by half a die. Accordingly, the bonus will stagger according to the value of the number of AP you add as follows:

5 STR = 1 DC, 5/8.75 = 0.57 = +1/2d6 (Double KB)

10 STR = 2 DC, 10/8.75 = 1.15 = +1d6 (Double KB)

15 STR = 3 DC, 15/8.75 = 1.71 = +1 1/2d6 (Double KB)

20 STR = 4 DC, 20/8.75 = 2.28 = +2 1/2d6 (Double KB)

etc

35 STR = 7 DC, 35/8.75 = 4 = +4d6 (Double KB)

 

EDIT: Checked the rules, and made a couple minor corrections.

 

[Grailknight]

First off let me apologize for my earlier rant, it had been a hard day at work:)

 

Secondly by the rules in FREd, you get to add STR to a HA up to the number of base DC's in HA. No prorating is done so ..

 

20 STR + 4d6 HA double knockback, armor piercing and transdimensional yields an 8d6 double KB, AP and transdimensional attack.

 

The power is very open to abuse but that's why you have a GM:). It does simulate quite a few in-genre effects but probalby should have a STOP sign or Magnifying Glass on it under the official damage add rules.

[Zed-F]

Aargh!

 

I looked up some more in FREd, and found a section I didn't see earlier detailing what you described. This seems to contradict some of the stuff in the FAQ. Bleh.

 

In particular:

Q: If a character has bought an Advantage for his STR (say, Armor Piercing), and he then uses a Martial Maneuver or Haymaker, how does the Advantage apply — to all the dice, to just the STR dice, to none of the dice?

 

A: It applies to none of the dice (see 5E 272, second paragraph in the right-hand column). For example, a character with 20 STR, Armor Piercing, who uses an Offensive Strike (+4d6) does 8d6 Normal Damage, with no AP effect.

 

If a character wants to make an Advantages Martial Arts attack, he should buy Advantages for specific Martial Maneuvers, as described in the optional rules on page 104 of The Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

I like the rules I came up with above based on this FAQ item (and others therein) better.

 

 

EDIT: I found the following in FREd p. 272:

 

A character who has a Power Advantage on a HA (or other Normal Damage attack to which his STR is added) does not also have to buy that Advantage for his STR if the character only uses his STR up to the unmodified active point value of the HA, of if the unmodified points value of the HA exceeds his STR.

 

So, it appears that according to the rules, we now have this:

 

If I have a 5d6 Double KB HA,

• 5-25 STR will add +1d6 to +5d6 to the HA (Double KB)
  
• but if I want to add 30 STR to the HA, it loses the advantage and becomes a 11d6 normal attack.