how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'll come right out and say it: Superheroes and Supervillains are immune to ordinary firearms wielded by ordinary people in my games. Either they can't be hit, or they can't be hurt, or both, because I don't like the feel of a game where someone who can throw a tank a city block can be brought down by a 50 year old beat cop with a .357 in one hand and a jelly doughnut in the other.

 

Superpowers > Firearms. That's my view of how superhero games and comics (not run in the Iron Age) should operate. Supertech like Iron Man qualifies as superpowers.

 

Issues of policing the PCs if they don't have to fear guns doesn't come up because I have good players who actually play heroes.

 

This has not resulted in any manner of arms race in any game I've run, so GloryFox's assertion that it 'always results in an arms race' is patently false. Perhaps it does among his playgroup, but not one I've ever participated in.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I will agree there is nothing that comes right out and says it. However it does appear to be a reoccurring theme.

I see a lot of people saying that normal guns in the hands of normal people in their game worlds shouldn't be effective against Supers.

 

None of them said that all Supers were immune to gunfire. Even if they had, those are their game worlds; they can set them up as they like. We don't have veto power over another GM's campaign.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Sorry' date=' this appeared whist I was posting my reply. 50rPD ? on what I assume was an automaton, so triple point cost? Haymaker away.[/quote']

 

50rPD on a vehicle? That's something like 225 active points, right? At that point, you stop trying to beat it up and look for its Achilles Heel.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

The difficulty I have with this argument is that there is ample evidence (to my mind) that power does indeed corrupt' date=' and we hear about it constantly in the news every day, especially as concerns those with political power -- whether we are talking about governmental politics, or corporate politics, or cheerleader group politics.[/quote']

There's ample evidence that some people in power abuse it. Ty Cobb once said something to the effect that he was a prick when he was poor and unknown, and that he was a prick when he was rich and famous. His prickishness was a constant. Bill Clinton would have screwed around if he'd become a lawyer or car salesman; all his being president did was give him access to a somewhat better class of partners and enough visibility that we heard about his infidelity.

 

I just use it to establish a few ground rules -- such as the military having the ability to combat supers' date=' should they need to -- that make it so that I don't feel I [i']have [/i]to go all the way down the line.

And if that's the way you want things in your campaign, groovy.

 

Other games, other conditions, other paths.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

50rPD on a vehicle? That's something like 225 active points, right? At that point, you stop trying to beat it up and look for its Achilles Heel.

That was supposed to be the point. Apparently the players in the game in question didn't take the hint until quite late in the game.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

There's ample evidence that some people in power abuse it. Ty Cobb once said something to the effect that he was a prick when he was poor and unknown' date=' and that he was a prick when he was rich and famous. His prickishness was a constant. Bill Clinton would have screwed around if he'd become a lawyer or car salesman; all his being president did was give him access to a somewhat better class of partners and the visibility that we heard about his infidelity.[/quote']

Maybe. But how many governments can you name in the last 20 years that have NOT had some sort of scandal erupt at one point or another?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

50rPD on a vehicle? That's something like 225 active points, right? At that point, you stop trying to beat it up and look for its Achilles Heel.

 

 

LOL, no they didn't and it cost 144 points for the DEF 50 Monster Truck. As for the Achilles heel. Well that was the remote control of course.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

There's ample evidence that some people in power abuse it. Ty Cobb once said something to the effect that he was a prick when he was poor and unknown' date=' and that he was a prick when he was rich and famous. His prickishness was a constant. Bill Clinton would have screwed around if he'd become a lawyer or car salesman; [b']all his being president did was give him access to a somewhat better class of partners[/b] and enough visibility that we heard about his infidelity.

 

No, that was Kennedy.

 

Being an assistant manager at a game store and/or leader of a Ren Faire actors guild and/or running my own clothing business gave me ample personal power to attract Lewinsky quality partners.

[OddHat]

Maybe. But how many governments can you name in the last 20 years that have NOT had some sort of scandal erupt at one point or another?

 

Which suggests that corrupt people rise to political power, not necessarily that personal power corrupts.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

No, that was Kennedy.

 

Being an assistant manager at a game store and/or leader of a Ren Faire actors guild and/or running my own clothing business gave me ample personal power to attract Lewinsky quality partners.

 

Yes. but you were unmarried, younger and better looking than Clinton.

[Shoutybloke]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

50rPD on a vehicle? That's something like 225 active points' date=' right? At that point, you stop trying to beat it up and look for its Achilles Heel.[/quote']

 

35 str to flip it on its roof. 25 if you push.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

35 str to flip it on its roof. 25 if you push.

 

I'd try it, but I'd be very surprised if anything that simple would work. The mad engineer who built it would have to be having a VERY bad day to not think of some way to have the thing right itself if it tips or flips over.

[Alibear]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'm sorry how did I misinform. I have not resorted to personal attacks, so I don't understand why you feel you must resort to such measures.

 

 

YOU ARE WRONG! Remember that? Anyway, it was a joke. Lighten up.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Which suggests that corrupt people rise to political power' date=' not necessarily that personal power corrupts.[/quote']

But if by acquiring personal power, that leads you to associate with (in alliance or opposition) people who do seek more power, and/or who seek to employ what power they have to pursue their own interests -- an eminently natural thing to do -- won't that tend to rub off? Most people are, in the long run, influenced by those they associate with. Certainly it seems to work that way in the world of governmental or corporate politics.

 

One could reasonably argue that merely having power doesn't corrupt, but that exercising it, seeking it, or associating with others that exercise or seek it, does. Perhaps that's why superheroes are traditionally such vehement defenders of the status quo, and do little other than that with their powers.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

35 str to flip it on its roof. 25 if you push.

 

Yeah they tried that, a little density increase went a long way.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

But if by acquiring personal power' date=' that leads you to associate with (in alliance or opposition) people who do seek more power, and/or who seek to employ what power they have to pursue their own interests -- an eminently natural thing to do -- won't that tend to rub off? Most people are, in the long run, influenced by those they associate with. Certainly it seems to work that way in the world of governmental or corporate politics.[/quote']

 

1) Different kind of power, Social / Financial rather than, say, the ability to shoot lasers out of your eyes. We have no model for that save perhaps people who own guns; the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens. You could also look at martial artists for examples of people with increased personal power, or people naturally born bigger and stronger than average; I doubt you'll find them to be more likely to commit crimes than average. In fact, I'd expect quite the reverse. Steroid users are a special case; the desire for power came first, then the crime was committed in pursuit of that desire: That's desire corrupting, not power corrupting.

 

2) Using your power to pursue your own interests is not corruption. Corruption only comes into play when you start using your power to break the law or abuse those around you.

 

3) Peer pressure corrupts, and absolute peer pressure corrupts absolutely, would be a hilarious campaign premise.

 

Again, your campaign, your call, and if the power corrupts meme works for you, go for it.

 

In my own campaigns, I don't use it. In the real world, I see the desire to have power as potentially corruptive, and only potentially; I know a fair number of remarkably powerful people, both financially/socially and in terms of physical achievement, who are not by any reasonable standards corrupt.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Perhaps that's why superheroes are traditionally such vehement defenders of the status quo' date=' and do little other than that with their powers.[/quote']

 

Incidentally, this is an Iron Age trope, and a winking one at that. Golden Age Superman was a (small s) socialist who smacked around war profiteers, corporate fat-cats, mine owners and lobbyists, and Wonder Woman was a Feminist by 1940s standards. Politically active Superheroes were the bread and butter of the 60s and 70s. Miller just introduced Superman as Pawn of the Government to give Batman a chance to play the rebel; the rough Status Quo is maintained in the big two universes because it makes it easier to hold the audience and keep telling stories, without having to explain to new readers once a month that Marvel America is now the Utopian Anarchist Collective Land Mass Formerly Known As America.

 

In your own game, there's no reason at all not to have Supers have as much or as little political impact as suits the stories you want to tell.

[Zed-F]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

1) Different kind of power' date=' Social / Financial rather than, say, the ability to shoot lasers out of your eyes. We have no model for that save perhaps people who own guns; the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens. You could also look at martial artists for examples of people with increased personal power, or people naturally born bigger and stronger than average; I doubt you'll find them to be more likely to commit crimes than average. In fact, I'd expect quite the reverse. Steroid users are a special case; the desire for power came first, then the crime was committed in pursuit of that desire: That's desire corrupting, not power corrupting.[/quote']

I imagine the level of celebrity or notoriety a super would be able to easily achieve (and even hard to avoid) in a People With Powers game acts as a pretty effective form of social power. That's not even counting the Tony Starks, Bruce Waynes, and Reed Richards in the crowd... or the Charles Xaviers, for that matter, who could indetectably alter another's opinion on an issue to match his own, if he were so inclined. There's a lot more than just eyebeams and rippling muscles to account for.

 

In a game about superheroes, rather than people with powers, none of this really matters, as far as corruptibility goes, except in a few rare (and generally unpopular) cases. If you're looking for a superhero story, you expect the good guy to either be above such concerns or to have the moral fiber necessary to resist whatever temptations fall across his path.

 

2) Using your power to pursue your own interests is not corruption. Corruption only comes into play when you start using your power to break the law or abuse those around you.

True, and things would no doubt start out that way in a people with powers game. But if one has a lot of power, I'd tend to think that the goals one chooses to accomplish with that power would tend to become more grandiose as one realizes just how much power of various types one has access to -- or at least that some of the other powerful people one associates with would have such grandiose goals, and ask for one's support. And grandiose goals have a way of being incompatible with other people's goals, or stepping on toes from time to time.

 

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch to suppose that superhumans in a people with powers world would tend to become politically important, whether they want to be or not. I don't think it's much of one, though, considering the power they represent. The existing power structure will do it's best to draw them in, if nothing else.

 

In a superheroes game, the superheroes generally don't have to worry too much about problems along these lines, so it's a non-issue there.

 

3) Peer pressure corrupts, and absolute peer pressure corrupts absolutely, would be a hilarious campaign premise.

Good for a few laughs at least. You could probably fit in some serious undertones if you tried.

 

Incidentally, this is an Iron Age trope...

Oh? Alright, I defer to your superior knowledge of the source material on that score.

 

Again, your campaign, your call, and if the power corrupts meme works for you, go for it.

 

In my own campaigns, I don't use it. In the real world, I see the desire to have power as potentially corruptive, and only potentially; I know a fair number of remarkably powerful people, both financially/socially and in terms of physical achievement, who are not by any reasonable standards corrupt.

That's fair enough. Hopefully the discussion has been at least interesting.

[Trebuchet]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I will agree there is nothing that comes right out and says it. However it does appear to be a reoccurring theme.

Even in the source material - comic books - normals with ordinary guns are virtually no threat to supers. A veritable multitude of bullets may be fired with wild abandon at the super, but seldom do they produce anything more than a dramatic panel or two while the super evades them or demonstrates his bulletproofness. How many times have armed bank robbers and the like shot at Spider-Man or Batman? How often do those criminals actually hit?

 

What it comes down to is that in genre those characters who can actually be injured by ordinary bullets seldom if ever get hit by bullets; and those to who bullets are no threat can be readily hit. Bullets in essense serve only one purpose in the comics: To demonstrate exactly why they're super.

[Opal]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

Incidentally' date=' this is an Iron Age trope, and a winking one at that. Golden Age Superman was a (small s) socialist who smacked around war profiteers, corporate fat-cats, mine owners and lobbyists, and Wonder Woman was a Feminist by 1940s standards. Politically active Superheroes were the bread and butter of the 60s and 70s. [/quote']I think to the extent that Iron Age characters defend the status quo it's with a hefty helping of irony - perhaps what you meant by 'winking?' I haven't gotten to read the Golden Age much, mostly just heard about it one way or another (I've read plenty of the pulps that preceded it, though, and seen serials of the day, for that matter). Superman as socialist is a knew one on me, though WW surely had her feminist creadentials. But, y'know 'Truth, Justice & the American Way,' doesn't sound too iconoclastic, sounds like supporting, at least, the ideals of said status quo.

 

I've been re-reading early marvel (60's and 70's), and, while political and social 'issues' start coming up, the heroes rarely take a /really/ controversial side. And, yes, do uphold the status quo quite a bit - sometimes the new status quo that had emerged with the 50's civil rights movement, but still, they tended to come down on the side of conventional 'good.'

 

But maybe I'm prejudiced, my favorite character from the era was Ironman - and Tony Stark was not just rich like Bruce Wayne, but an industrialist who's biggest customer was generaly the military. Or maybe I'm just splitting hairs.

 

 

the rough Status Quo is maintained in the big two universes because it makes it easier to hold the audience and keep telling stories

I've found this to be true even in a game. It's just easier of the world lurches on about like it does IRL, rather than trying to track all the ripple effects all the super's actions have.

[OddHat]

I imagine the level of celebrity or notoriety a super would be able to easily achieve (and even hard to avoid) in a People With Powers game acts as a pretty effective form of social power. That's not even counting the Tony Starks, Bruce Waynes, and Reed Richards in the crowd... or the Charles Xaviers, for that matter, who could indetectably alter another's opinion on an issue to match his own, if he were so inclined. There's a lot more than just eyebeams and rippling muscles to account for.

 

In a game about superheroes, rather than people with powers, none of this really matters, as far as corruptibility goes, except in a few rare (and generally unpopular) cases. If you're looking for a superhero story, you expect the good guy to either be above such concerns or to have the moral fiber necessary to resist whatever temptations fall across his path.

 

I'm not saying that Supers would or must be incorruptible; where would villains come from? I'm not even suggesting that the PCs can't be as corrupt as you and the players would like. That said, real people resist the temptations of power every day, and a slip here or there does not, contrary to the George Lucas view of human nature, lead inexorably down the road to Evil.

 

So the PC has the power to re-write minds; the assumption that he'll start actually doing so on a whim or to further his political goals has no more claim on "realism" than the assumption that a real world martial artist will start casually beating people he dislikes just because he could probably get away with it.

 

True, and things would no doubt start out that way in a people with powers game. But if one has a lot of power, I'd tend to think that the goals one chooses to accomplish with that power would tend to become more grandiose as one realizes just how much power of various types one has access to -- or at least that some of the other powerful people one associates with would have such grandiose goals, and ask for one's support. And grandiose goals have a way of being incompatible with other people's goals, or stepping on toes from time to time.

 

That's only "corruption" if the person pursuing those goals starts breaking the law or abusing others. Otherwise, it's plain vanilla politics.

 

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch to suppose that superhumans in a people with powers world would tend to become politically important, whether they want to be or not. I don't think it's much of one, though, considering the power they represent. The existing power structure will do it's best to draw them in, if nothing else.

 

This is a fine way to go, if you want to in your setting. My own OSI campaign is built in part on that idea.

 

That's fair enough. Hopefully the discussion has been at least interesting.

 

Actually, very.

[OddHat]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I think to the extent that Iron Age characters defend the status quo it's with a hefty helping of irony - perhaps what you meant by 'winking?'

 

That Superheroes just defend the status quo is an Iron Age idea (or even more accurately, an idea that came strongly to the fore in the Iron Age). Frank Miller's Superman in Dark Knight Returns is the example most people go back to.

 

Mostly it came out of applying adult standards to stories that were written mostly for children until the last few decades, added to the tendency of companies to want to keep their worlds recognizable for readers. Editors decided that Superman wasn't allowed to capture Hitler, Reed Richards wasn't allowed to cure cancer, no one was allowed to topple real dictators or solve real problems, etc. And the poor Superheroes are condemned as conformist defenders of the powers that be. It's worth a giggle or two, but it's an artifact of the industry as it currently stands, not a core element of the genre. There's nothing preventing a writer or gamer from creating Socially Conscious Man, except the knowledge that his title probably wouldn't sell all that well.

 

I haven't gotten to read the Golden Age much, mostly just heard about it one way or another (I've read plenty of the pulps that preceded it, though, and seen serials of the day, for that matter). Superman as socialist is a knew one on me, though WW surely had her feminist creadentials.

 

Read some reprints of the Superman stories of the 1930s and early 1940s, if you can stand the art and writing. You may be surprised. Or read Schroeders Speculations and ignore the Wold Newton fanfic spin, concentrating on the actual actions taken by Supes in his early adventures. I'd send you over to Superman Through The Ages, but unfortunately they're long down, and the Internet Wayback machine didn't fully archive them.

 

 

But, y'know 'Truth, Justice & the American Way,' doesn't sound too iconoclastic, sounds like supporting, at least, the ideals of said status quo.

 

A call for Justice and Truth is not an endorsement of the establishment.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

 

 

 

 

A call for Justice and Truth is not an endorsement of the establishment.

 

True. And IIRC "The American Way" wasn't added until the '50s and the George Reeves-starring TV program. Of course, I've always considered "The American Way" to represent the highest ideals that America was founded on. Freedom, democracy, equality, things like that.

[Trebuchet]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

I'm not saying that Supers would or must be incorruptible; where would villains come from? I'm not even suggesting that the PCs can't be as corrupt as you and the players would like. That said' date=' real people resist the temptations of power every day, and a slip here or there does not, contrary to the George Lucas view of human nature, lead inexorably down the road to Evil.[/quote']We've flipped that trope upside down in our campaign. Our most powerful megavillain decided to seek political power. He now rules Columbia and Venezuela (having been legitimately elected in both), and looks to be absorbing Peru and possibly Chile into his "United States of South America" in the near future. It's one thing to have powers; it's a whole 'nother level of power to rule a continent (assuming his ambitions end there).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: how do you deal with guns and superheroes in your campaign

 

We've flipped that trope upside down in our campaign. Our most powerful megavillain decided to seek political power. He now rules Columbia and Venezuela (having been legitimately elected in both)' date=' and looks to be absorbing Peru and possibly Chile into his "United States of South America" in the near future. It's one thing to have powers; it's a whole 'nother level of power to rule a [i']continent[/i] (assuming his ambitions end there).

 

Huh ... I was having an idea for the Warlord (CKC) moving into Iraq and starting a similar campaign there. Mildly roadblockish on getting it to work, though, so I've mostly discarded it.