"Never Miss" powers

[Wayside]

Never Misses (+3)

The attack requires no attack roll.

 

Background: Autofire 216 (+3.5), reduced to a +3 because it's usable only with blazing away with a standard effect of 1 hit. House ruled into a new advantage.

 

Unavoidable (+1/2)

The attack still hits, even if the target dives for cover.

 

Background: Trigger, zero phase reset, takes no time to activate, character has no control over trigger, trigger is missing due to target diving for cover (+1/2)

 

Inevitable (+1/2)

The attack still hits, even if the target is behind cover.

 

Background: Just indirect any origin (+1/2)

 

Really, Never Misses (+4)

The attack cannot be avoided. (All of the above)

 

I never liked the presented method for always hitting (a bunch of CSL's with area of effect and line of sight), and I really didn't like how it would automatically miss if they dove for cover a single inch. So, those are some of my proposed solutions/alternatives. not sure if the dive for cover solution is kosher though.

[Vondy]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Area of Effect One Hex, Accurate. As long as you hit the hex, you hit them, unless they dive for cover. It doesn't take scads of levels ot hit a hex, so you just need enough to make that a sure thing.

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I'm aware, that's the standard presented method. And I also referenced that in my post :/.

 

E: I would also like to note that it is impossible to make it a sure thing using that method, as you will still miss on a roll of an 18, no matter how many levels you have.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I'm aware, that's the standard presented method. And I also referenced that in my post :/.

 

E: I would also like to note that it is impossible to make it a sure thing using that method, as you will still miss on a roll of an 18, no matter how many levels you have.

 

Unless the GM simply applies the "absolute effects" rule. Bring yourself to 19- to hit and. assuming I'm prepared to allow a "power never misses" construct at all, I'd allow that this one never misses.

 

A +3 advantage in a 12 DC game means a 3d6 attack. Not only did you get "always hits", but also "rarely if ever hurts".

[Thia Halmades]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Also, don't forget, a large enough AOE (Say, Radius, Accurate) and the odds of you missing, even IF they DFC, is about zero.

[Comic]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

But what do you do if someone buys "Can Never Be Hit?"

[Alibear]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Your reality crashes in on itself and you have to start the Time/Space continuim anew.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Your reality crashes in on itself and you have to start the Time/Space continuim anew.

 

That. Or we simply have the game represented version of Chuck Norris punching himself in the face; an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

That. Or we simply have the game represented version of Chuck Norris punching himself in the face; an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

 

 

Anyways, nope, wouldn't allow it

 

(always hits, that is)

[Bloodstone]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

One Hex (Accurate) coupled with No Range Modifier is only a +1 worth of advantages.

 

Is negating the .5% chance of a miss and the opponents ability to DFC worth +2 more worth of advantages?

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Whilst I've heard (and made) arguments on both sides of this one, personally, if anyone REALLY wanted a 'always hits' advantage, I'd probably just rule it as a +1. I've never seen the need. They'd need to buy 'indirect' on top of that though. It doubles the cost of 'autofire' if that is also applied tot he power. Also it would be a stop sign advantage, so if it also seems to come as a tiny attack equipped with loads of NND/AP/AVLD/Penetrating, the GM can just say 'no'.

 

Really, though, the biggest problem you have with a 'always hits' power is justifying it in concept terms.

 

Best of luck with that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

One Hex (Accurate) coupled with No Range Modifier is only a +1 worth of advantages.

 

Is negating the .5% chance of a miss and the opponents ability to DFC worth +2 more worth of advantages?

 

And AOE (Radius) and Accurate would be +1 1/2. Poof. Additionally, there's Comic's Change Environment construction which also enables someone to "always hit" by dealing damage in the AOE zone provided by CE.

[archermoo]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The only way I've ever done an "always hits" type thing was a sharpshooter character of mine. I talked to the Ref about it and we decided that the most elegant solution in the situation was a Perk. If I rolled a miss, the character just relalized that his shot would miss ahead of time and didn't take it.

 

The only real game effect was that I didn't waste charges on misses. Worked out pretty well and got me what I was looking for.

 

As to powers that cannot miss their target, I've never liked them and so have very little interest in modeling them in HERO.

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well, a few things.

 

I would like to note that I'm not using these in my games and didn't make them for my use, just for discussion. Though I am considering using unavoidable depending on people's opinions of it. But alas, no one has commented on it...

 

Obviously the consesus is that never misses is way too expensive, looks like +1.5 to +2 would be more appropriate since it's background advantage can't be used for any manuever but with blazing away (which after thinking about it would include rapid fire and sweep, so i think that justifies the reduction pretty well.)

 

Using the one hex accurate, line of sight method makes it hit most of the time, but the target could simply dive out of the way. Add in a situation where your enemy (or rather his hex) has cover, and is standing in a fog, and you could rapidly be in the "sort of hits...half...the time" category.

Add in penalties for rapid fire or sweep and your chances plummet yet further.

 

At any rate, does anyone have any comments about the unavoidable advantage? Does that seem fair? +1/2 feels like it's probably a bit too steep for what it does, perhaps reduced to +1/4 for having a limited trigger?

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Thia: Accurate can only be bought for a one hex area of effect. And if you bought an area of effect bigger than one hex it would hit everyone in the area, possibly including yourself.

 

Archer: Clever way of handling the never misses situation, I like it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I think the proposed Advantages are a bit too expensive. Here's some stuff I posted back in 2005 on this topic...

 

 

No Normal Evasion

 

With this +1 Power Advantage, an attack does not require an Attack Roll in order to strike its target. Instead, the target is automatically affected unless they have the specified means of avoiding it. Whenever NNE is applied to a Power, a reasonably common effect must be defined that will cause the attack to miss. For example, a heat-seeking missile with NNE might miss any target that didn't emit heat above a certain temperature, or that had a means of masking its heat emissions. A magic missile might miss any target with appropriate defensive powers or spells (such as Shield ).

 

Like No Normal Defense, No Normal Evasion attacks do not cause BODY damage by default. If NNE is applied to an attack that you wish to have do BODY, you must also apply the Does BODY Advantage.

 

The cost of NNE is based on the assumption that the conditions allowing evasion are less "common" than being missed by the attack would normally be. If the conditions for evasion are common enough that the GM considers them to allow evasion as often as normal Attack Rolls vs DCV and so on would (the NNE equivalent of NND's "Equally Common Defense"), then the cost of NNE is only +1/2.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I had an advantage that I came up with and posted here a while back called "Always Hits" and it is basically a variation on NND. Does stun only, have to define a way it misses, doesn't make the attack indirect, that kind of thing. It's only a +1 advantage, because it's not much different in concept than NND.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well, a few things.

 

I would like to note that I'm not using these in my games and didn't make them for my use, just for discussion. Though I am considering using unavoidable depending on people's opinions of it. But alas, no one has commented on it...

 

Obviously the consesus is that never misses is way too expensive, looks like +1.5 to +2 would be more appropriate since it's background advantage can't be used for any manuever but with blazing away (which after thinking about it would include rapid fire and sweep, so i think that justifies the reduction pretty well.)

 

Using the one hex accurate, line of sight method makes it hit most of the time, but the target could simply dive out of the way. Add in a situation where your enemy (or rather his hex) has cover, and is standing in a fog, and you could rapidly be in the "sort of hits...half...the time" category.

Add in penalties for rapid fire or sweep and your chances plummet yet further.

 

At any rate, does anyone have any comments about the unavoidable advantage? Does that seem fair? +1/2 feels like it's probably a bit too steep for what it does, perhaps reduced to +1/4 for having a limited trigger?

 

Unavoidable as a trigger has the potential problem that you require two shots if someone dives out of the way. Now if you have a zero END power, no loss, but if you are using charges or the power costs END, you are either using two shots to hit or, if handwaved, getting free charges/END.

 

It is a reasonably cunning way to do it, but bear in mind that a triggered power only (as far as I know) goes off if the trigger condition is met, so +1/2 might actually be cheap: you want a trigger that has a zero phase reset and two activtion conditions (target dives for cover, or you just shoot it). That would be +3/4.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I had an advantage that I came up with and posted here a while back called "Always Hits" and it is basically a variation on NND. Does stun only' date=' have to define a way it misses, doesn't make the attack indirect, that kind of thing. It's only a +1 advantage, because it's not much different in concept than NND.[/quote']Yep, that's the exact same logic my "No Normal Evasion" concept above is based on.

[Comic]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Inspired by the elegance of Archermoo, 'Danger' Sense, built as 'Sense Miss, Near Future, Own Attack, Analyse'; Thus you have a PERception-based chance to know if you'll miss, and thus not take the shot.

 

And if you're really worried, 'Sense Missed Perception, Near Future, Own Perception, Discriminatory'; this ensures you'll really know if you know if you'll miss.

 

And..

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Unavoidable as a trigger has the potential problem that you require two shots if someone dives out of the way. Now if you have a zero END power, no loss, but if you are using charges or the power costs END, you are either using two shots to hit or, if handwaved, getting free charges/END.

 

It is a reasonably cunning way to do it, but bear in mind that a triggered power only (as far as I know) goes off if the trigger condition is met, so +1/2 might actually be cheap: you want a trigger that has a zero phase reset and two activtion conditions (target dives for cover, or you just shoot it). That would be +3/4.

 

well, the trigger is just where I derived the new advantage from, the new advantage isn't actually firing another shot if the first misses, it just doesn't miss in the first place. My curiosity with the trigger was that it would be bought as a naked advantage for the power. So you would use the power normally and if it missed then the naked trigger would apply to it and activate. I wasn't sure if that was legal within the rules though, having the naked advantage only apply when the trigger actually occurs.

 

I like the idea of the no normal evasion, although it ends up being equally expensive once you have to buy does body for it as well.

[Vestnik]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Why not this:

 

2d6 RKA, Area Effect (1 hex; +1/2), Megascale (1 hex = 1 km; +1/4) (52 Active Points), Only Affects One Specific Target in Area Effect (-?)

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Only effecting one specific person in the area would be an advantage, not a limitation, especially if it doesn't require an attack roll to hit that person.

[Vestnik]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

OK, you quibbler. Does it do the job?

[Alibear]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The only way I've ever done an "always hits" type thing was a sharpshooter character of mine. I talked to the Ref about it and we decided that the most elegant solution in the situation was a Perk. If I rolled a miss, the character just relalized that his shot would miss ahead of time and didn't take it.

 

The only real game effect was that I didn't waste charges on misses. Worked out pretty well and got me what I was looking for.

 

As to powers that cannot miss their target, I've never liked them and so have very little interest in modeling them in HERO.

 

 

That is very cool. Rep.