Sprit Whim Magic System

[JohnTaber]

Hi Hero Gods: I'm currently working on a FH campaign where spirits are source of all magic. For example, to create a blast of fire you summon spirits of fire and order them to speed at the target. All spells must have this overarching special effect of "call fairy x to do task y". Spirits have minds of their own and can do occassionally do unpredictable things. To that end I was contemplating altering the FH base magic system to promote this feel.

 

 

Now...some guidelines...these are my guidelines for this campaign...yes there are some opinions thrown in...please accept them as my takes only...

 

• I do NOT want to drastically effect the default base FH magic system. In other words I don't want to completely change rolling a modified skill roll based on the active points, an attack roll (as required), then damage/effect (as required).
  
• I want to promote a feeling that launching a spell has a bit more uncertainty in damage or effect. Spells could have ramifications to the caster if the spirits get upset when called (i.e. the magic roll fails).
  
• I do not want "mystically enhanced fighters" with only 1 spell that gives them some minor benefit.
  
• Calling spirits is draining.
  
• Defensive spells are too cheap for FH where damage is often lower. For example, 10 points of armor spell is cheap and extremely effective.
  

 

Here are some of my thoughts right now...#5 is the most out there...I would love some feedback on that one...

 

My Thought #1 - Magic Roll And Side Effect Are Required On All Spells

The Magic Roll would be a skill called "Call and Bind Spirits". If the roll is missed the spirits would backlash somehow on the caller (i.e. Side Effect). Maybe in damage, annoying effects, etc. By forcing these on all spells that effect would occur.

 

My Thought #2 - Minimum Real Points Spent On Spells For Starting Characters

Forcing a minimum real points spent on spells should prevent "mystically enhanced fighters". I have to figure out what the number is...30 points?...but I think this idea would work.

 

My Thought #3 - Spells Costs 1 End/5 Active Points

This would make spells draining to cast.

 

My Thought #4 - Double The Cost Of Defenses Bought Through Powers

Armor costs 3 pts for 1 defense, FF costs 2 points for 1 defense, benefits from other powers that relate to defense are half as effective. I think this should be ok...

 

My Thought #5 - A caster can sacrifice from their magic roll to add active points to their power

 

I thought this would be a fun way for spirit mages to really be creative and take a chance to get some neat effect. The trick is going to be picking the numbers. For now I'll say the caster can add 5 active points for every point they make the magic roll. For fun...if they miss their magic roll in this way they take a larger side effect based on the amount they wanted to try! I'll start an example so we can talk about it...

 

Example #1 - Arc has a 16 or less magic roll and a 6d6 lightning blast. This would be -3 to the magic roll (13 or less). Arc decides he is going to tweak a dragon and make the attack armor piercing. This means he needs 15 active points. That is -3 to his magic roll. If he rolls a 10- he casts the spell as desired. If he misses the side effect is 15 points greater!

 

Thoughts on any of this? Good ideas? Bad ideas? Etc?

 

Thanks!

[Cargus10]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

You could just require that all spells take the "Increased END" limitation, or "Costs END" for spells that normally don't. Likewise, one way I've foound to balance some powers:

 

Force Field: Require it to have at least 3x END

Healing: Require Extra Time, at least 1 full turn if not more

Mental Powers: Require Concentration. For some, make them No Range.

 

I like the "increase power for skill" tradeoff, but the example you give is more like a Variable Advantage. Arc isn't just boosting the power of the spell, he's changing it on a more basic level.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

I had a similar one where your Magic Skill determined how much active points you could throw. You could take a -2 to increase the active points by 15 and there was certain things you could do to get bonuses (such as materials or favorable conditions or taking more time). Side Effects really helped to put an upper limit on the spells without needing to make it a hard limit. "Sure, cast that 60 active spell, what's your roll for that taking that additional -4?" "11 or less" "Are you sure?"

 

Overall, our group liked this system, but it did open the way up to abuse by mages with amazingly high INT. It was interesting to watch characters experiment with various materials and conditions to get as many bonuses as they could. Taking more time could have been really annoying, but the party handled most of that in game. "I'll need five hours." "You got five minutes."

 

The big one I regret was using charges instead of END. This allowed the mage to create minor magic items and with an upper limit of INT/3.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

You could just require that all spells take the "Increased END" limitation, or "Costs END" for spells that normally don't. Likewise, one way I've foound to balance some powers:

 

Force Field: Require it to have at least 3x END

Healing: Require Extra Time, at least 1 full turn if not more

Mental Powers: Require Concentration. For some, make them No Range.

 

Great ideas.

 

I like the "increase power for skill" tradeoff' date=' but the example you give is more like a Variable Advantage. Arc isn't just boosting the power of the spell, he's changing it on a more basic level.[/quote']

 

Good point. Maybe I should just let it up the active points....hum....

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

I had a similar one where your Magic Skill determined how much active points you could throw. You could take a -2 to increase the active points by 15 and there was certain things you could do to get bonuses (such as materials or favorable conditions or taking more time). Side Effects really helped to put an upper limit on the spells without needing to make it a hard limit. "Sure' date=' cast that 60 active spell, what's your roll for that taking that additional -4?" "11 or less" "Are you sure?"[/quote']

 

Good point. I forgot that raising the active points automatically increases the side effect as well. Awesome. We like killing multiple birds with one stone.

 

I definitely plan to add bonuses in different situations. It should give me a lot of variability based on the spirit angle. Some things I have in mind include...

 

• Sacred locations that add to magic rolls.
  
• Wastelands that subtract from magic rolls.
  
• Areas where certain spirits are more rare. For example, in that volcano fire spirits are at +2 and water spirits are at -2.
  
• Items that increase magic rolls in certain situations and/or with certain spell types and/or with charges, etc.
  

I really like how that looks.

 

Overall' date=' our group liked this system, but it did open the way up to abuse by mages with amazingly high INT. It was interesting to watch characters experiment with various materials and conditions to get as many bonuses as they could. Taking more time could have been really annoying, but the party handled most of that in game. "I'll need five hours." "You got five minutes."[/quote']

 

 

Everyone will really want to push their magic roll by whatever means possible. I will have to be careful. Thanks for the advice.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

You might find something of use here: Magic Systems

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

You might find something of use here: Magic Systems

 

Wow...nice stuff. It does not have any that are like what I am trying to do but there are some great ideas for some small add-ons and such. Very cool collection!

[Markdoc]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Something which has some aspects of what you are going for - but which is also a bit more punitive - is here.

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/magic_systems.htm#Medieval%20Magic

 

cheers, Mark

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Something which has some aspects of what you are going for - but which is also a bit more punitive - is here.

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/magic_systems.htm#Medieval%20Magic

 

 

Yeah, that is very close to what I am thinking. Interesting ideas. Thanks for the link!

[eternal_sage]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

i would also require extra time (since you have to call up and command the spirits to do your bidding). the system i use for our house oriental setting has alot of these ideas inherent as well.

 

as for magic wielding fighters, you could do what i've done in the oriental setting and make the entire concept socially unacceptable in game. sure, there is no rule that says you can't do it, but the distrust of the npcs and other players will curb the concept pretty well (or at least does for my group ).

 

i don't have alot more to add, though, so...keep up the good work! this kind of thing is really fun, if you get it working right

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

i would also require extra time (since you have to call up and command the spirits to do your bidding). the system i use for our house oriental setting has alot of these ideas inherent as well.

 

Definitely something to consider. I could force Extra Time too. Not bad.

[tomd1969]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Instead of limiting the Real Cost to a minimum of say 30 Real Points, how about limiting it to a maximum of x pts (x is whatever you want it to be)? That way, the more powerful spells take longer, require more effort, etc. You could even have them buy a leveled Talent that allows them to increase how many Real Pts they are allowed--you could name it anything you want: Arcana, Magery, Craft, etc. So, Arcana I would allow spells of up to 5 Real Pts, Arcana II would allow 10 Real Pts, etc.

 

I would also recommend setting up a codified system of these spirits: their names, what they do, etc. Also, what Side Effect would each one have if you fail the roll? Maybe the Invoking Voices of the Luminous Desert has a different Side Effect than the Queen of Pain that may or may not have anything to do with the Power you've purchased. If the Queen causes insanity (4.5d6 Major Transform Person to Insane Person (Mental)), perhaps her Side Effect is Capture (xd6/xDEF Entangle).

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Hi Tom: First off...great reply. Thanks!

 

Instead of limiting the Real Cost to a minimum of say 30 Real Points' date=' how about limiting it to a [i']maximum[/i] of x pts (x is whatever you want it to be)? That way, the more powerful spells take longer, require more effort, etc. You could even have them buy a leveled Talent that allows them to increase how many Real Pts they are allowed--you could name it anything you want: Arcana, Magery, Craft, etc. So, Arcana I would allow spells of up to 5 Real Pts, Arcana II would allow 10 Real Pts, etc.

 

I was not clear enough. The 30 minimum real points is the total that the character must spend on all of their collected spells. In the past I have had an issue with all of the swordsman buying 1 or 2 smaller spells to enhance themselves. For example, Str Aid and Force Field with long delays and such. They would spend 8 to 10 pts to add powers. I am NOT worried about play balance...my primary concern is the feel I want in the campaign. I want mages to be fairly rare and to have to be very invested. Hope that helps clears it up.

 

I would also recommend setting up a codified system of these spirits: their names' date=' what they do, etc. Also, what Side Effect would each one have if you fail the roll? Maybe the Invoking Voices of the Luminous Desert has a different Side Effect than the Queen of Pain that may or may not have anything to do with the Power you've purchased. If the Queen causes insanity (4.5d6 Major Transform Person to Insane Person (Mental)), perhaps her Side Effect is [i']Capture[/i] (xd6/xDEF Entangle).

 

I have something like this planned...or at least in mind...but hearing your feedback makes me sure. I definitely plan to have the characters define the side effect when the spell is created but I did not think it would depend on a certain spirit. For example, one spell involving fire spirits might result in a RKA side effect where another might result in a transform into a raging uncontrolled lunatic. My thought was to work with the players to define the side effect. Note that I did NOT have this in the campaign doc I am starting so a big thanks.

[tomd1969]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Hi Tom: First off...great reply. Thanks!

 

Thanks.

 

I was not clear enough. The 30 minimum real points is the total that the character must spend on all of their collected spells. In the past I have had an issue with all of the swordsman buying 1 or 2 smaller spells to enhance themselves. For example, Str Aid and Force Field with long delays and such. They would spend 8 to 10 pts to add powers. I am NOT worried about play balance...my primary concern is the feel I want in the campaign. I want mages to be fairly rare and to have to be very invested. Hope that helps clears it up.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I have something like this planned...or at least in mind...but hearing your feedback makes me sure. I definitely plan to have the characters define the side effect when the spell is created but I did not think it would depend on a certain spirit. For example, one spell involving fire spirits might result in a RKA side effect where another might result in a transform into a raging uncontrolled lunatic. My thought was to work with the players to define the side effect. Note that I did NOT have this in the campaign doc I am starting so a big thanks.

 

Sure... I had something similar planned for an urban fantasy project I was working on that never came to be. So, a lot of this stuff I'd worked out at one time. Unfortunately, my notes (and my hdc files) seem to have gone away... somewhere.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

John, did you ever take a look at the magic system in The Valdorian Age? The aproach to magic is similar to what you're describing, and you might be able to crib some of its concepts for your own game.

 

VA author Allen Thomas posted a description of his approach to magic which I think gives a good sense of it:

 

Hey guys... sorry it's taken me so long to respond, took a vacation after GenCon... just a quick word about magic, which will hopefully answer some questions.

 

The magic is very specific and requires entreating with other-dimensional beings, from demons to the souls of the departed (necromancy) to elementals to divine agents, to accomplish specific effects. All magic-using characters, including priests, depend on extra-dimensional sources for their abilities.

 

In many ways, this simply becomes a special effect of whatever spell the sorcerer is casting. For instance, rather than a PC stating "I draw on my reserves of mystical might to change the weather" or "I draw upon the magical weave of the world to change the weather," a PC in a Valdorian Age campaign states "I'm summoning an air elemental to change the weather."

 

(Looking at the most commonly read genre material, I'd say the magic is closest to Elric in feel. Although Summoning happens quite often elsewhere too, and IMO it's pretty typical a sorcerer in the fiction relies on other-dimensional sources for his magic. Think of Xaltotun in Hour of the Dragon summoning a "creature of the night" to paralyze Conan before that battle near the beginning of the novel -- the spell he works is a pretty simple BOECV Entangle with the summoned "creature of the night" as a special effect.)

 

Of course things aren't quite that simple and certain events, such as failing a Skill Roll, lead to the sorcerer becoming indebted to the summoned creature. Think of it this way: magic isn't there to be shaped by a knowledgable and/or talented person -- it's not a natural power -- instead the sorcerer has to haggle with other-dimensional beings for his power.

 

This is handled via a Favor system, an extension of the rules for Favors on page 57 of FREd. Just real quick, a sorcerer accumulates positive and negative Favor points. He can trade in positive points to cancel his "debt," ensure a spell succeeds, force a Summoned creature obeys his command, and other stuff. If the sorcerer allows his debt to get out of hand, an other-dimensional being will come a-calling, generally requiring the sorcerer to perform a task -- the more debt, the more unpleasant to the task. A successfully performed task cancels X-number of favor points, the actual number of points depending on the difficulty of the task. (An aside: these tasks also provide a very convenient hook for GMs to get their players started on an adventure.) Ideally this haggling between sorcerer and Summoned creature is role-played out between the sorcerer and other-dimensional being, but the point system allows it to be handled quickly and easily, so the GM can take care of it on the fly and doesn't have to break the action if he doesn't want to.

 

To lend things a modern prospective, think of being a sorcerer as having an other-dimensional credit card

 

Anyway, those are the basics... other things flow from this focus on other-dimensional beings -- such as Contacts and Perks (think: "I am king of Melnibone and my forefathers made treaties with you and yours, so you are obliged to help me now.) All sorcery draws power from an END Reserve with very specific Limitations on the REC (think: "Now I must dream the dreams of the Black Lotus to recover my power.") In addition to their more vaguely defined uses, Knowledge Skills have a very specific use of creating wards and charms to provide bonuses against magic, as well as identifying the weaknesses of Summoned creatures. (In some situations, the PC sorcerer is going to be really useful just because of his Knowledge Skills.)

 

To address some other points:

 

Someone asked about sorcery as "Tool of Darkness" -- while sorcery isn't a tool of darkness per se, as is hopefully obvious from the above, it is a slippery slope where if the PC isn't careful he finds himself increasingly the pawn of powers who don't necessarily have mankind's best interests at heart, and even if they aren't so bad, like divine agents of the gods, these powers could really care less what the PCs in the sorcerer's pary want...

 

And of course many sorcerers are just plain evil.

 

As for the effectiveness of sorcery, especially the combat effectiveness... a 150-point sorcerer getting all D&D in combat (meaning: transforming himself into walking artillery piece) is likely toast. But the rest of the PCs protecting the sorcerer while he casts his spell is (hopefully) an interesting tactical challenge. In other words, sorcery is effective enough to be very useful in combat, so it's in the best interests of the other PCs to plan not only to kill the antagonists, but also protect the sorcerer while he does his magic thing. (And there's a section in sorcery discussing these tactics in more detail in the appropriate chapter.)

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Wow Lord Laiden...I do not have VA and did not know it had that concept. Interesting! I just ordered Tuala Morn for ideas but maybe I should look at VA too. Thanks for the tip!!!

[Markdoc]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

If the VA magic system appeals, I pillaged some aspects of it for the magic system in my current game:

 

Samadrian Heretic magic uses the following rules. Practitioners use multipowers for their spells. All spells are ultras and the first spell they learn is always a summoning. This is usually not the patron, who comes only to Adepts of the cult, but a familiar of the patron, who he will assign to the cult member as a teacher and assistant. As the mage increases in power, he can learn additional summonings, and learn more potent magics. Each Patron and his familiars can only teach spells within their area of influence and this is the only way mages of this style can learn spells. I've listed a few example Patrons below, but there are many more in the game.

 

Spells in the multipower MUST take the following limitations:

 

All spells must cost END. While it is possible to have spells that have the reduced END advantage, or even persistent spells, they must at least have the limitation "Costs END to cast (-1/4)" in which the END cost is only paid when the spell is cast

All spells must take the "Concentration" limitation to at least the 1/2 DCV (-1/4) level

All spells must take the limitation "Extra time" - to at least a full phase level (-1/2).

All spells must take the limitation "Requires Mana" (-1/4). Mana is Long Term END , thus all END used to cast spells is LTE.

All spells must take the limitation "requires a skill roll" (-1/2). This is an INT-based power skill "Cult Magic". The caster can always take extra time to make the roll easier, and may benefit from better conditions or tools. However spells do not benefit from concordances as cult magic of the Twelve does. Although spells are taught by patrons, a caster of Samadrian Heresy magic can use any spell he learns from that tradition - he is not limited to the spells his own patron teaches.

Last of all, Samadrian heresy magic must take Side Effect (-1/4). This is a major side effect, reduced to -1/4 because it is tied to a specific act (spell failure). The side effect itself is a 1d6 (or more for powerful spells) Major Transform, which has the advantage "Difficult to dispel" at the +1 level, meaning each d6 has an active points value of 60, with regards to dispel or similar powers. It can affect either spirit, mind or body, so the mage must keep track of three transform totals. Body-affecting transforms usually warp the caster, giving him boils, scaly skin, red-glowing eyes, tentacles instead of hands, etc. Spirit-affecting transforms affect the caster's personality, giving him strange quirks, secret fears, unluck or an otherworldly and inhuman aura (to those who can detect such things), while mind-affecting transforms give him mental problems, bizarre (and generally useless) knowledge, or affect his ability to discern things. The caster may suddenly lose the ability to speak his native language, or start to think he is someone (or something) else. The 'damage' caused by the transform does not heal and if there was no way to avoid it, few would choose this style of sorcery. However, the patron can choose to reverse the process. Alas, nothing is free. The patron will request a service from the sorceror (the sorceror can even store up "credit" ie: have negative "transform points" by performing a service in advance of any transformations). However, the process can only be reversed during the transformation. Once it has occurred it is permanent, barring some miracle (ie: it is very hard to dispel or cure magically: typically it will take 6 or more d6 of transform to affect the target, meaning you would need 270+ points from dispel). Services are often strange or meaningless to the sorceror, but he can be sure they serve some implacable alien purpose, so sorcerors often have a reputation for "oddness" even if they have not been transformed. Patrons are not forgiving: to fail at a task means that the patron will typically refuse to intervene (condemning the mage to gradual warping if he uses his magic) unless the worshipper can persuade it to grant a second chance. It may also send familiars to plague or even kill the character. This is not guaranteed and the outcome of failure should be roleplayed, but if a second chance is granted, it will certainly be of a higher level than the failed task (ie: failure at a minor task can only be forgiven by doing an intermediate task and so on) although it will generate no more points than the lesser task. Finally, there is one other way to reduce the points accumulated from a transform. This is to find a scapegoat - one who agrees to accept the points. The scapegoat does not have to know *what* he is accepting, exactly. He can be tricked into it. But he must know that he is accepting a magical charge and he must accept it freely - torture or duress will not work. Transfer of the transformation "damage" requires physical contact. This can be done even if a transformation is complete. Since a scapegoat usually has no magic and no patron, they are generally stuck with the negative points, as they cannot "buy it off" by performing a service. Generally, if you want something from a sorceror, you will end up accepting some of his transformations. Sorcerors will sometimes accept another's obligation - especially within the same cult - although this is seen as a major debt.

 

Type of service: Reduces transformation total by

Potential services

 

Minor: 2 points

- Send a lost person down the wrong street

- Place a stick in a trail

- Give a certain beggar a silver coin

- Whistle a certain tune at a certain place and time

 

Intermediate: 5 points

- Set fire to someone's washing

- Make sure a man goes to a specific tavern at a specific time

- Throw a gold bracelet down a well

 

Major: 10 points

- Drive some villagers out of their village

- Scribe a certain symbol on the altar of a temple

- Make sure a political alliance fails

 

Life-Threatening: 20 points

- Kill a specific person

- Free an imprisoned spirit

- Bring a living man to the patron's own dimension

 

Each cult has its own Patron and each Patron associates with a single cult, although priests debate endlessly as to whether there are actually many or simply Twelve (or even one! Heresy of heresies!) since most (perhaps all) Patrons can take on many forms. Are they demons, luring the gullible in exchange for power? Are they simply another aspect of the Twelve? If not, why the association of powers? Is the corruption truly a sign or evil or merely the development of aspects that our limited minds cannot comprehend - much like the services the Patrons require? No one knows the answers, but most priests - and many lay people - have strong opinions. One thing is clear - unlike the Twelve, Patrons are clearly not caring beings and the welfare of their servants is of no interest to them. And that's putting it mildly - in many cases they seem to delight in human sufferings. Their names are unknown - their worshippers give them titles instead. Below is a partial list of potential patrons and the cults they associate with. The GM is encouraged to make more.

 

For example:

Cult: The Laughing God

Patron

A Man with leathery skin and a wide mouth full of teeth called the Duke of Stillness. He can teach any language and also all spells of Elemental Earth Magic. His magic brings physical change.

 

The Earl of Furor is a man with fiery hair. He floats, never touching the ground, and teaches spells of Elemental air and those nature spells involving weather.

 

 

Cult: The Crying Woman

Patron

A handsome woman with a star on her forehead, carrying a flaming sword, called the Duchess of Secrets. She knows all the things that men have done wrong and can grant favours to her worshippers (the Perk: favour or contact - which must be used by blackmailing the contact). She teaches all spells of Elemental spirit magic except Cleanse the Mind or Cleanse the Spirit

 

The Changing Lord. This patron appears in many different forms and teaches spells from the school of Elemental Flesh. His magic usually causes physical transformation.

 

etc.

 

Some patrons have notes indicating that their magic most often affects a particular aspect. Normally when a sorceror of the Samadrian Heresy casts a spell, roll a d6 to see what sort of transformation it causes, 1-2 is physical, 3-4 is mental and 5-6 is spiritual. If a certain patron's spells usually cause a particular transformation, then roll 1-4 that transformation, 5 or 6 for the remaining two.

[Cargus10]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Not to go veering off on a tangent, but I ran a campaign once where all "clerical" magic was done this way - but none of the priests and such had spells at all. Instead they bought contacts, and the contacts could cast spells for them. If they saw fit, and if they could be contacted. The more powerful the contact, the more the cost.

 

The upside is that it makes designing the characters pretty easy. The downside is that the GM has to build every contact...though that gives you considerable freedom to balance things

[JohnTaber]

Re: Sprit Whim Magic System

 

Hi Markdoc and Cargus10: These are pretty different from what I want but they are both very interesting concepts. Thanks for the nice replies. I may pilfer some of the smaller concepts...

 

Take care!