Some questions about Stronghold

[Greeter]

Greetings All,

 

I recently purchased Stronghold and love it. I do have some questions.

 

What effect, if any, does the power negation system have on technology? It doesn't show any limitation in the "In Game Terms" section on page 56, but I don't see anything about the SPARC armor, handcuffs, or other items having any special resistance to it.

 

My guess is all of these items are not effected. Does that then mean all powers derived from technology are immune to the effects (the Power Negation has -0 limitation to not effect technology), or only the technology used by Stronghold (the Power Negation has Personal Immunity)?

[Tech]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

I don't have it yet nor have I seen it so I only have one answer:

 

all powers derived from meatloaf aren't affected by it.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

Greetings All,

 

I recently purchased Stronghold and love it. I do have some questions.

 

What effect, if any, does the power negation system have on technology? It doesn't show any limitation in the "In Game Terms" section on page 56, but I don't see anything about the SPARC armor, handcuffs, or other items having any special resistance to it.

 

My guess is all of these items are not effected. Does that then mean all powers derived from technology are immune to the effects (the Power Negation has -0 limitation to not effect technology), or only the technology used by Stronghold (the Power Negation has Personal Immunity)?

 

Logically, I'd probably rule that Technology based powers aren't affected. Since most tech based powers can be removed, power negation on them seems like a waste. Now, as far as how this handles cybernetic bad guys...you guess is as good as mine. I felt the power negation thing in Stronghold was WAY too hand wavy...so I'm using tailored individual cells instead.

 

Rob

[Doomed Prophet]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

I take the "Individual Containment Cell" idea. A blanket of power negation would actually irritate any hero visiting the Stronghold (although the "Visitor Check-In" room does have negation to keep out those pesky shape-shifters). For tech based villains I either remove the offending tech (armor suits and weapons are all stored off-site) or by tech-dampening cuffs (designed to stop the use of offensive tech, can't go around killing villains with artificial hearts).

I guess they left some of the ideas in Stronghold up to the individual GMs.

[Greeter]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

My hero group is going to try to break someone out of Stronghold. The problem is two of the heroes wear suits (OIF) for their powers.

 

I am still trying to figure out how to rule this one. Technology isn't listed as a weakness in the vulnerability section on page 112.

 

Is Stronghold supposed to be effective against Doctor Destroyer's Black Talons, Warlord's Warmachine, and Viper's numerous suits of armor? Doctor Destroyer and Warlord are so powerful that it doesn't matter one way or the other, but their minions are another story.

 

Is Stronghold purposely made to be vulnerable to someone like Armadillo (though those NND attacks would make him think twice)?

[Doomed Prophet]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

It's all up to the GM. If you're the GM you can say that the Stronghold has a "Technology Dampening Field" that stops non-Stronghold technology from working.

If you're not the GM then all you can do is try to get in. Just make sure to have a good exit strategy.

 

In my game, most of the big villains us the "He's incompetent, that's why he got captured" mentality when it comes to minions getting caught. They won't go out of their way to free them, but they will give them a welcome back party if they escape.

Low level villains who have team-mates get captured either:

Try to free them (if they're not smart enough to realize that their powers will be shut down if my Stronghold goes to "Full Containment" status).

or

Get some help and try to spring them with a full assault on the Stronghold. (Trying the old "Get them back into court, and spring them en-route" routine doesn't work in my games. Most super villains are tried via teleconfrence from the safety of their cell.)

 

I'd say it's all up to the GM for anything not covered in the source material.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

What effect, if any, does the power negation system have on technology? It doesn't show any limitation in the "In Game Terms" section on page 56, but I don't see anything about the SPARC armor, handcuffs, or other items having any special resistance to it.

 

My guess is all of these items are not effected. Does that then mean all powers derived from technology are immune to the effects (the Power Negation has -0 limitation to not effect technology), or only the technology used by Stronghold (the Power Negation has Personal Immunity)?

 

My hero group is going to try to break someone out of Stronghold. The problem is two of the heroes wear suits (OIF) for their powers.

 

I am still trying to figure out how to rule this one. Technology isn't listed as a weakness in the vulnerability section on page 112.

 

Caveat: I don't have the Stronghold book yet, so I don't know specifically how the Power Negation is bought.

 

The way I would run it is that, since the technology used by Stronghold still presumably works, the Power Negation is bought with Personal Immunity (applying to staff / equipment / etc. at Stronghold). I'd define it as a special chip or circuitry in the SPARC armor, handcuffs, etc. that nullifies the Power Negation. Of course, Stronghold isn't about to advertise this fact, but it could be discovered by the heroes as they research ways to get into Stronghold. (Make it something buried in an early report to Congress or something similar, maybe referencing some brilliant designer who created the Negation Nullifier Chip.)

 

Then, I'd run an adventure where the PCs with the OIF power suits can get their hands on the chip or circuit design, or "borrow" a set of supercuffs to reverse-engineer. Or they could learn that a villain has already done this, and they have to make a "deal with the devil."

 

Just some suggestions, hope they're useful.

[Alverant]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

I haven't read the entire book yet, but wouldn't technological items simply be put in storage (or returned to their rightful owners like the Anklesaur (sp) armor)? If a criminal uses gadgets/guns/armor then the authorities would just take those items and put the criminal into a normal prison. They wouldn't be sent to Stronghold because it's not warranted (unless they are dangerous enough or have an innate power that would make escape from a normal prison too easy).

[Greeter]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

(Make it something buried in an early report to Congress or something similar, maybe referencing some brilliant designer who created the Negation Nullifier Chip.)

 

Then, I'd run an adventure where the PCs with the OIF power suits can get their hands on the chip or circuit design, or "borrow" a set of supercuffs to reverse-engineer. Or they could learn that a villain has already done this, and they have to make a "deal with the devil."

 

Just some suggestions, hope they're useful.

 

Very neat idea!

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

I haven't read the entire book yet' date=' but wouldn't technological items simply be put in storage (or returned to their rightful owners like the Anklesaur (sp) armor)? [/quote']

 

Not in every case. Some technology may not be easily removable (like cybernetics), or not removable at all (like an AI robot, or a brain in a jar).

 

If a criminal uses gadgets/guns/armor then the authorities would just take those items and put the criminal into a normal prison. They wouldn't be sent to Stronghold because it's not warranted (unless they are dangerous enough or have an innate power that would make escape from a normal prison too easy).

 

As you noted, some (like Utility) are potentially dangerous even after they're disarmed. And one thing you're forgetting -- many supervillains belong to teams or have other supervillains that owe them favors.

 

Let's say you capture Binder, take away all his toys, and throw him into a normal prison. It's not likely he'll break out on his own, but you can be pretty sure the other Ultimates are going to stop by, and we're not talking during normal visiting hours or just to chat.

[Publius]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

Logically, I'd probably rule that Technology based powers aren't affected. Since most tech based powers can be removed, power negation on them seems like a waste. Now, as far as how this handles cybernetic bad guys...you guess is as good as mine. I felt the power negation thing in Stronghold was WAY too hand wavy...so I'm using tailored individual cells instead.

 

Rob

Sure, there is plenty of room to use individually tailored cells using the existing maps. There is also room to have service provided for the supression tech in the "trench" that runs along each one of the Blocs (aka the lower sublevels). Alternatively, you could say that the suppression equipment is located in the gap between the various levels and is accessible from the Secure Area for regular maintenance and replacement. That will also give you some nice "Jeffries Tube" areas which are darned handy in a breakout (or better yet a "bug hunt") scenario.

 

Keep in mind as well that the general suppression field is supplemented by more specific technology in some cases (Stronghold Page 57 under "Customized Power Negation" makes explicit mention and Stronghold page 64 under "Escape Risk" alludes to some of the cases when it is required).

 

The only drawback to eliminating the suppression field is that it makes the allowance for prisoner interaction much much more difficult from a logical standpoint. If you had to build a prison but had no suppression tech, you'd not have the Level One Prisoner Service area, or if you did it would be much more "cell like" and not allow for interaction. Were I a prison official, I'd personally be extra-jumpy if the guy in cell 5 could melt my face if he weren't inside the cell 24/7. That would effectively make all nearly all incarceration in Stronghold a Supermax situation. It sort of kills the "Escape from Alcatraz" vibe and replaces it with the "Man in the Iron Mask" (before, you know, they break him out). O'course if you want that feel for your games, I say go for it.

 

 

 

As for the tech-based powers issue, tech-based supers (which according to some researchers should be labelled as "TSH" or Trained Super Heros per Champions Universe pg 33) are usually held in normal prisons after they have been stripped of their toys, unless of course they present a threat to escape from standard facilities. At that point, they are subject to the standard Risk-level classification system (Stroinghold pg. 64). I'd presume that most the advocates of the TSH theory would tend to feel these individuals should be placed in Stronghold lest they come up with some weird yet oddly effective junktech means to escape from a normal prison. Considering the bewildering way in which real-life prisoners have used things like everyday chemicals it isn't that far-fetched.

 

Of course, as GMs (and to a lesser extent, players) we don't want the system to be perfect anyway. Put the TSH's in regular prisons so that they can break out easily and become challenges for future games.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

The only drawback to eliminating the suppression field is that it makes the allowance for prisoner interaction much much more difficult from a logical standpoint. If you had to build a prison but had no suppression tech' date=' you'd not have the Level One Prisoner Service area, or if you did it would be much more "cell like" and not allow for interaction. Were I a prison official, I'd personally be extra-jumpy if the guy in cell 5 could melt my face if he weren't inside the cell 24/7. That would effectively make all nearly all incarceration in Stronghold a Supermax situation. It sort of kills the "Escape from Alcatraz" vibe and replaces it with the "Man in the Iron Mask" (before, you know, they break him out). O'course if you want that feel for your games, I say go for it. [/quote']

Personally, I think that sacrifice is worth it, because the omni-negation field strains the bounds of believability in anything Bronze-Age or later.

 

However, there is an effective compromise. In addition to the customized cells, there could be a portable version of the cell's power negating properties (a belt, armbands, etc). The power supply on the unit would only last for an hour or two before needing a recharge, so that would allow for limited periods of interaction with the other prisoners.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

However' date=' there is an effective compromise. In addition to the customized cells, there could be a portable version of the cell's power negating properties (a belt, armbands, etc). The power supply on the unit would only last for an hour or two before needing a recharge, so that would allow for limited periods of interaction with the other prisoners.[/quote']

 

I similarly have a problem with Adjustment Powers too broad in definition (and have ever since the Mutant File's "Suppress all mutant powers" stuff). So I like Fedifensor's idea (and repped him appropriately). This has the attendant chance that a villain could find a way to bypass his own portable negation unit (or, just for shits and giggles, the portable negation unit of another villain, to cause a riot to cover for something else).

[transmetahuman]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

One-Suppressor-Fits-All tech has always exceeded my suspension of disbelief tolerance specs (as well as being IMO a bad precedent as available technology), but this thread brought up some good drama-related reasons for it that I hadn't thought of (prisoner interaction, breakout attempts from the outside). Portable individualized suppressor tech helps with the first but not the second.

 

So... this probably won't suit most people as an answer, I realize, but I have an easier time swallowing a One-Suppressor-Fits-All enchantment... Maybe the people behind Stronghold have contracted some master mage, or avatar of Order, to set things up, and float the cover story of this imaginary suppressor tech to mislead everyone trying to find a way around it.

 

A less universally useful, but maybe more comic-booky method might be to have a very powerful telepath give everyone the ongoing delusion that their powers don't work - though that won't work as well for prisoners with good mental defenses or powers that aren't under their conscious control. They could float the same cover story for that one too.

 

Or combine the methods - say that between the spell, the telepath, and the technology that they do have, they can cover 98% of the situations that come up.

[Highwayman]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

As far as "one-size-fits-all" supressor fields, it occurs to me that most powers that aren't plain old magic are justified with technology, psychic powers, access to other dimensions, or grossly misinterpreted quantum mechanics. A technology supression field isn't completely implausible, and it's been established the CU has mechanical mental shields, so an anti-psi field could work. If you combined the first two with some kind of handwavium-generated field that nullified the last two, you'd shut down the majority of powers.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

One-Suppressor-Fits-All tech has always exceeded my suspension of disbelief tolerance specs (as well as being IMO a bad precedent as available technology), but this thread brought up some good drama-related reasons for it that I hadn't thought of (prisoner interaction, breakout attempts from the outside). Portable individualized suppressor tech helps with the first but not the second.

 

So... this probably won't suit most people as an answer, I realize, but I have an easier time swallowing a One-Suppressor-Fits-All enchantment... Maybe the people behind Stronghold have contracted some master mage, or avatar of Order, to set things up, and float the cover story of this imaginary suppressor tech to mislead everyone trying to find a way around it.

 

Whoah... one of the plot seeds for Bromion (renegade Avatar of Order in Arcane Adversaries) has him subverting a prison on Earth.

Of course, there's also a Demon: Servants of Darkness plot seed to the same effect:eek:

[Publius]

Re: Some questions about Stronghold

 

Personally, I think that sacrifice is worth it, because the omni-negation field strains the bounds of believability in anything Bronze-Age or later.

 

However, there is an effective compromise. In addition to the customized cells, there could be a portable version of the cell's power negating properties (a belt, armbands, etc). The power supply on the unit would only last for an hour or two before needing a recharge, so that would allow for limited periods of interaction with the other prisoners.

I think that works quite well. The golden rule for the Champions setting stuff has always been use what works isn't it? The modifications you suggest here, along with the tailored suppression techniques for each prison-cell discussed, in lieu of a general field certainly make sense and change relatively little in the actual book in terms of the prison's facilities and functions (i.e. the book is still 99.97% applicable). I think that is an excellent option.