Is combat in HERO strategic?

[maidenforce19]

How strategic is the combat system for HERO? How good is it compared to other RPG battling systems? Are there many options for your character to do? Can you still do things while defending?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

I think you mean is combat in HERO tactical. Strategic would be more appropriate to a larger scale.

 

Here is an older article I put up on the subject a while ago:

 

HERO 5e Combat Tactics

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

I think you mean is combat in HERO tactical. Strategic would be more appropriate to a larger scale.

 

you should say "smaller scale."

 

1/100 is a smaller scale than 1/10 (because 1/100<1/10) but concerns a larger area.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

you should say "smaller scale."

 

1/100 is a smaller scale than 1/10 (because 1/100<1/10) but concerns a larger area.

 

 

I didn't mean map scale.

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

I didn't mean map scale.

 

 

I'm sorry about that but this is the way scales work, even if it's not pleasant.

When you speak about scale you speak about ratio.

And when you speak about tactical and strategical scales you speak about spatial (and temporal) scales.

The spatial part may be translated to a map (2D or 3D.)

 

If your "scales" are not spatial nor temporal i would be curious to know what kind of mystical scales you spoke about.

 

I guess what you meant was "scale in common language."

But this common usage is not correct, whatever the way you use it (on a map or not), even if 99% people use it this way.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

I'm sorry about that but this is the way scales work, even if it's not pleasant.

When you speak about scale you speak about ratio.

And when you speak about tactical and strategical scales you speak about spatial (and temporal) scales.

The spatial part may be translated to a map (2D or 3D.)

 

If your "scales" are not spatial nor temporal i would be curious to know what kind of mystical scales you spoke about.

 

I guess what you meant was "scale in common language."

But this common usage is not correct, whatever the way you use it (on a map or not), even if 99% people use it this way.

 

Uuhhh....no.

 

Your definition concerns maps only. Common usage is always correct, except when specific concerns preclude it, as in your map example. It's the majority of speakers of a language that decide what any given term means. To believe otherwise is ignoring empirical facts.

 

Any reasonable English speaker on the planet, hearing someone say they were planning a wedding on a grand scale, would think that person was pulling out all the stops, and not that they were having a small, intimate ceremony.

 

And really, what did this quibble add to this conversation?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Well, the Quibbler was happy ...

[Spidey88]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Well, to answer the question (at least what I think is being asked):

 

HERO can be extremely tactical, if you want it to be. You've got an incredible amount of offensive and defensive options, and tons of ways to play with them. Tactical thinking in real-world terms carries over to effectiveness in the game; and, in theory, you could potentially do all sorts of things while acting defensively - though going "full defensive" means you can't attack at the same time.

 

Honestly, few systems come close to the combat verisimilitude that HERO offers. That being said: if you don't feel like you're up to much thinking and just want to duke it out with your adversary, you can trade punches all you like and no one will get in your way. It's only as complicated as you want it to be.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

On the other hand, I blame bad tactics for many people's complaints about Hero's glacially slow combat. If you break into a series of one-on-one fights, connecting perhaps twice a Turn, then your foes get a recovery, and you get a recovery, yes, it's going to take forever because it's just nickel-and-diming.

 

If you actually use some teamwork and tactics, have some people do set-up powers like Flash and Entangle so the other characters can use risky-but-high-damage like Haymakers and Move-Throughs, fights end MUCH faster.

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Uuhhh....no.

 

Your definition concerns maps only. Common usage is always correct, except when specific concerns preclude it, as in your map example. It's the majority of speakers of a language that decide what any given term means.

 

 

This is not "my" definition. And this definition (scale=ratio) is not specific to maps, as i've already said.

 

 

To believe otherwise is ignoring empirical facts.

 

Statistical opinions are the empirical facts of belief, this has nothing to do with the empirical facts of what is a ratio.

 

I would not be suprised that the majority of people believe role-playing-games are only a kind of video-game. Would you agree with them just because of a statistical superiority ?

 

 

Any reasonable English speaker on the planet, hearing someone say they were planning a wedding on a grand scale, would think that person was pulling out all the stops, and not that they were having a small, intimate ceremony.

 

Reasonable ? Lol...

 

 

 

And really, what did this quibble add to this conversation?

 

 

Information.

Isn't it a free "forum" ? (not a very friendly one.....this is often rude and disdainful here....that's very surprising for a dedicated forum. Well, nevermind...)

 

And because this is a HERO forum and the originial post was "How strategic is the combat system for HERO?", referring to Fantasy Hero page 201 we can see that the Hero's usage of "scales" concerns spatial, manial (is it the correct english word ?) and temporal ratios and that there is a wide selection of possible scales, from sub-tactical to strategical.

 

 

PS: my intent was not to speak about that for a long time, it was just to inform, but i'm very surprised to see how strong is your will to bend reality and defend opinions.

I cannot struggle against beliefs so the final word is :"As you like it" and bye.

[Vondy]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

This is not "my" definition. And this definition (scale=ratio) is not specific to maps, as i've already said.

 

Statistical opinions are the empirical facts of belief, this has nothing to do with the empirical facts of what is a ratio.

 

I would not be suprised that the majority of people believe role-playing-games are only a kind of video-game. Would you agree with them just because of a statistical superiority ?

 

Reasonable ? Lol...

 

Information.

Isn't it a free "forum" ? (not a very friendly one.....)

 

And because this is a HERO forum and the originial post was "How strategic is the combat system for HERO?", referring to Fantasy Hero page 201 we can see that the Hero's usage of "scales" concerns spatial, manial (is it the correct english word ?) and temporal ratios and that there is a wide selection of possible scales, from sub-tactical to strategical.

 

 

PS: my intent was not to speak about that for a long time, it was just to inform, but i'm very surprised to see how strong is your will to bend reality and defend opinions.

I cannot struggle against beliefs so the final word is :"As you like it" and bye.

 

I'm just going to step in here and be unfriendly.

 

I note your location (which has changed since I started typing this post) and some grammar choices you've made and have to ask: are you a native English speaker? Because, if not, you are arguing usage with native English speakers. I would never, for instance, argue French usage with a Frenchman. Instead, I'd take a page a learn from him. And if you are a native English speaker, their language skills are better than yours and, well, you could stand to learn a great deal about definitions and usage.

 

Scale can refer to ratios of measure, and in terms of gaming map ratios are a frequent reference, so your specific technical application is correct, but their usage of the term "scale" as a general term in common usage is absolutely, indisputably correct. The dusty old grammar buffs who write dictionaries agree with what they have told you: in linguistics, common usage is king. And its not a constitutional monarch. Its a realpolitick monarch. It gets used so its correct. Other definitions, while correct - and even if they preceded the current common usage - become technical and narrow in application.

 

Telling people that the common, accepted usage is incorrect because you want to interperet their statements through the lense of a technical, narrow application of the term isn't just incorrect - its plain, old-fashioned chutzpah. Simply put, you've said we're unfriendly. Most people who come to the boards feel quite the opposite - and the people you are arguing with are among some of the most helpful and open board members. I do not include myself in this statement. I'm not known for my eloquence or good grace. But, is it possible people who are traditionally a part of the welcoming committee are being "unfriendly" because you came out of the gate as an argumentative quibbler?

 

Personally, I'm already done with this thread.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

This is not "my" definition. And this definition (scale=ratio) is not specific to maps' date=' as i've already said.[/quote']

 

Not mine either.

 

# A progressive classification, as of size, amount, importance, or rank: judging divers' performances on a scale of 1 to 10.

# A relative level or degree: entertained on a lavish scale.

 

 

 

Statistical opinions are the empirical facts of belief, this has nothing to do with the empirical facts of what is a ratio.

 

I would not be suprised that the majority of people believe role-playing-games are only a kind of video-game. Would you agree with them just because of a statistical superiority ?

 

No one is talking about ratios. Killer Shrike was talking about the size of a battle.

 

As long as we're being asinine quibblers, pretending that we have trouble understanding anything except in the most narrow sense, I'm not sure what you're saying in the second paragraph here. Unless, perhaps, you meant "surprised".

 

 

Reasonable ? Lol...

 

What is unreasonable about knowing how 99% of a population uses a word and understanding it in that sense, rather than taking a very narrow technical definition and pretending that is the only way to use it? Should we argue that no modern navy has any ships, since no modern navy uses three masted sailing vessels carrying square sails on all masts?

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

I note your location (which has changed since I started typing this post) and some grammar choices you've made and have to ask: are you a native English speaker? Because, if not, you are arguing usage with native English speakers. I would never, for instance, argue French usage with a Frenchman. Instead, I'd take a page a learn from him. And if you are a native English speaker, their language skills are better than yours and, well, you could stand to learn a great deal about definitions and usage.

 

Unless you speak about ladders, échelles, dragon scales or écailles i think the english scale is the same as the french one.

 

But Well, ok, i'm sorry, i'm not a native english speaker so i'm wrong, you're right and i surrender.

Majority of frenchmen do the same usage mistake about scale so i guess they are right too.

 

Personally, I'm already done with this thread.

 

Me too.

Thank for you english lesson.

 

PPS:

Originally Posted by American Heritage Dictionary

# A progressive classification, as of size, amount, importance, or rank: judging divers' performances on a scale of 1 to 10.

# A relative level or degree: entertained on a lavish scale.

 

This kind of scale ? Ok, i see what you mean (not a very usefull definition when speaking about tactical and strategical scales, isn't it ? Honestly ? Don't you think the ratio definition is more usefull when dealing with scales in battles simulation ?)

 

 

But, well, stop, you're right, i'm wrong and everything is fine. Ok ?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

This kind of scale ? Ok, i see what you mean (not a very usefull definition when speaking about tactical and strategical scales, isn't it ? Honestly ?)

 

Actually, yes. There are several levels at which battles and wars are analyzed, with tactical and strategic being the ones that have come into the most common usage outside the military community. There are also grand tactical, operational, and grand strategic levels. Taken all together, these form a non-ratio scale which can be used in the analysis of battles.

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Actually, yes. There are several levels at which battles and wars are analyzed, with tactical and strategic being the ones that have come into the most common usage outside the military community. There are also grand tactical, operational, and grand strategic levels. Taken all together, these form a non-ratio scale which can be used in the analysis of battles.

 

yes but, when you say, for instance, that 1 unit equals 1 squad this is a ratio, isn't it ?

 

 

PS: stop, lol, i surrender. :):)

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

yes but' date=' when you say, for instance, that 1 unit equals 1 squad this is a ratio, isn't it ?[/quote']

 

I suppose, but unit size isn't the only thing considered when determining a battle scale.

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Ok.

 

PS: even if HERO mainly uses the ratio definition ? (cf for instance the Fantasy Hero Mass Combat : there is no confusion here. The word scale is used as a ratio =

"1 turn equals", "1 hex equals", "Range divisor !"

 

It's even written "The last column in the Battle Scale Table, Range divisor, indicates the range scale of the mass combat, which is related to the distance scale."

We can also read "The larger the average unit, the larger the scope of the battle."

So there is no confusion, by combining those two sentences we can see that scale and scope are related but are not the same thing.

 

So even if i'm not a native englishman i think i'm not completely misunderstanding what 'scale' means here.... Or am i ?

Because this is a HERO thread i think we could use the HERO definition.

)

[Starlight]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

So even if i'm not a native englishman i think i'm not completely misunderstanding what 'scale' means here.... Or am i ?

 

You are. Perhaps understandably however, in view of the fact you are not a native speaker of the English language. If words only had a single meaning then machine translation would be be simple and unambiguous. This is far from the case. The fact is that the meaning of a word depends on its content.

 

The words 'larger scale' have distinct and very different meanings when applied to a map than when applied to a combat. A larger scale 'map' does cover a smaller area in the way you have stated. When referring to a combat though, a larger scale combat is one which covers a larger area and/or has a larger numbers of combatants.

 

Same words. Vastly different meanings. Killer Shrike was specifically discussing combat. His usage was perfectly correct. If you can grasp the following you'll be a long way towards understanding the vagaries of the English language in this regard: 'Gaming a larger scale combat requires a smaller scale map'.

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Maybe i should explain myself in another way =>

 

I think you would agree that the word "scale" has several definitions in english =>

Scale=A progressive classification.

Scale=A ratio.

Scale=An animal scale.

 

in french =>

Echelle = A progressive classification.

Echelle = A ratio.

Echelle = A ladder.

 

So this is not a native or not native language question because, except for the animal and ladder variants, the definitions are the same in English and in French.

 

 

The question is: what kind of definition HERO uses ?

H5 page 7 ==>

SCALE and MOVEMENT:

Movements and maps in the HERO System use hex-shaped inches which, despites their names, are 2 meters wide.

 

So, 1"=2m, which is a 1:2 scale. Don't you think this is the ratio definition ? Don't you think the combat scale of HERO is a ratio ?

Are the HERO author(s) wrong just because he/they don't use the most common definition ?

 

I know that languages may have several definitions for one word (i'm not a complete freak) but what is the most usefull, the less confusing way of handling that in the scope of this rpg ? (...knowing that HERO actually uses one clear definition. Do you think HERO uses several definitions ?)

[sbarron]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

KS wasn't talking about "HERO" scales when he said...

 

I think you mean is combat in HERO tactical. Strategic would be more appropriate to a larger scale.

KS was talking about the difference between tactical and stategic combat, in general. Tactical battles are fought on a smaller scale than stategic battles.

 

Everyone that's posted in this thread understood his sentence to be not only accurate and clear of meanding, but also grammatically correct...except you. And you admit English isn't your first language. Why continue to argue this point?

 

P.S. By the way, if KS were talking about maps, you'd be correct in your critique. But given what a stickler KS is about stuff like that (and I'm pretty sure he plays/has played Warhammer, and I know he was in the military), I'd bet he would have properly used the term "scale" if he had been discussing maps with us.

[archermoo]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

The question is: what kind of definition HERO uses ?

 

That's easy: All of them, as appropriate. I'm quite sure that Steve wouldn't limit himself to a single definition of a word over the course of a 500+ page book.

 

"Well, I was going to say 'Grand Scale' here, but dangit I've already used the 'ratio' definition of scale. I guess I'll have to come up with a different word to use..."

 

 

Obviously you are aware that in english as in french words can have more than one meaning. However, while I could be wrong, you seem to be laboring under the miscomprehension that only one of those definitions is the correct one, and the others are incorrect. I'll admit, I know very little about french, so I suppose that concept might be correct about french. It is not correct about english. Continuing to insist that it is is in as bad taste as continuing to admit defeat, but continuing to argue anyway.

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

ok, i agree and believe you even if i think this was actually more about a logical argumentation than a linguistic one.

Everything is allright. I stop here.

[archermoo]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

ok, i agree and believe you even if i think this was actually more about a logical argumentation than a linguistic one.

Everything is allright. I stop here.

 

In what way was it a logical argument? Someone made a statement. You replied by insisting that since one of the words he used has more than one valid meaning, if you look at his statement using a different meaning than the one that is obvious by context it doesn't make sense. And then went on to insist that the word in question really only has one meaning, and that anyone using one of the MANY other valid meanings are wrong.

 

How is that not about linguistics?

[Crypt]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

There is a complete mutual misunderstanding here so i suggest to actually stop this discussion now. Please.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic?

 

Le sigh.

 

Apology accepted, and I understand the nature of your confusion -- I've frequently dealt with (and been married to) non-native English speakers and am familiar with how odd and inconsistent English can be where some words have multiple and mutually exclusive / reversed meanings.

 

No big deal; and to set the record straight -- I've played many tactical board games in my day, done some kit modeling, was in Military Intelligence (including a stint in a specialized Topographic unit that dealt exclusively in maps, ground surveys, terrain models, and CAD overlays -- Mapping, Charting, Geodesy as they called it, and at other commands some amount of Image Interpretation, other stints in Surveillance and Reconnaissance Control, and at all commands a great deal of tactical intelligence operations which invariably involve lots of map correlation). I understand fully the difference between map scales, ratios, and associated concepts and if I were speaking in that context you would be correct in your interpretation.

 

The context in which I was speaking is the common confusion around strategic vs tactical. Many people use them interchangeably, others use one when they really mean the other. This is a gross simplification but as they are commonly used today by the US military, tactics are detailed, immediate concerns with a real-time effect and are often dictated by events in play. Strategic concerns play out at a higher level, are less about details and more about the bigger picture, and their effects are rarely felt immediately -- they take time to mature / be realized.

 

In the context of the HERO System, an example of a tactic would be something you would employ in Combat time such as taking advantage of an opponent committing to a 1/2 DCV maneuver to hit them with a big attack. An example of a strategy would be growing your character's design in a certain direction over time in order to accomplish some goal like realizing a good synergy with various abilities, adapting to some common theme / concern in the campaign, being able to overcome a difficult opponent, etc.

 

Anyway, no harm no foul. Thanks to the people that stepped forward to represent me. And to Crypt I will say that while there are a few people on these boards that can be less than pleasant, they are usually dealt with quickly by the Mods and don't last long. I've been on these boards for years, and in my opinion overall they are populated by very reasonable and helpful fellow gamers. I hope that if you've had some bad experiences or really believe that the forums are unfriendly that you will be given due cause to reconsider.

 

Ok, now that the air has been cleared -- come on people, group hug time