Disadvantage Point Limits.

[ideasmith]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

I think Code vs Killing is interesting as a Social Disadvantage. =)

 

Like Wolverine, who has the 'no point reluctance to kill' but wants to remain a member in good standing with the X-men?

 

Or Starfire, ditto, Titans?

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

For full disclosure, to head off any more speculation on my motives: my actual characters, if they could break that 50-point Category limit, would have at most 80 points in Psychological Limitations. (I have three of them; one will have 80, one will have 60, the third 65.)

 

The reason I asked if I could have all 150 points in one Category is because I wanted some indication of how much breathing room I can have.

 

One solution would be PhilFleischmann's, which divides the Psychological Limitations into different subcategories of Fears, Beliefs, and Quirks. That would very easily solve my problem with the point limit.

 

And a lot of the "gimmes" of DNPC or Reputation just don't fit. A reclusive loner (the 80-point Psych Limitation character) probably won't have a DNPC, and for this character, I really cannot see her as she is with a DNPC of any sort. And being relatively new heroes in a small town, they don't have a Reputation that's worth any points.

 

All of them already have Secret Identities and Vulnerabilities, so that's taken. I'm not sure how disadvantageous a Distinctive Feature has to be before it can be considered a Disadvantage, so I played it safe. (What sort of reaction would count as Major? Surprise, or outright panic?)

 

To reiterate, all this is to have a basis of understanding of the system, so that sometime in the far future, if I ever get to run a game (since that's probably the only way I'm going to get a local group together), I can look at a player's character sheet and decide whether to stick to that point limit, as well as what sort of point limit I want to stick to.

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Random: I was curious about high Psychological Disadvantage points being unbalancing to the character, so I decided to pick a random fictional character to test: Ranma Saotome, from Ranma 1/2.

 

I'll put aside all his Hunteds and Rivalries and Accidental Changes for now. All point values are from the Master List of Limitations.

 

Overconfident: Very Common, Strong (20)

Driven to be the Best: Common, Strong (15)

Ailurophobia: Common, Total (20)

Code vs Killing: Common, Total (20)

Cannot Resist Taunting His Opponents In Combat: Common, Moderate (10)

Cannot Strike A Woman: Uncommon, Total (15)

Cannot Look Weak: Common, Strong (15)

Brash and Impulsive: Frequently, Greatly (15)

 

That's 130 Psychological Limitation points without even trying. Nevertheless, Ranma is still considered to be a popular character, at least among anime fans in the 90s.

 

Possibly this is because his other problems (Hunted by just about everyone wanting to kill him, marry him, or both) dwarf the Psych Limitations.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Random: I was curious about high Psychological Disadvantage points being unbalancing to the character' date=' so I decided to pick a random fictional character to test: Ranma Saotome, from [i']Ranma 1/2[/i].

 

I'll put aside all his Hunteds and Rivalries and Accidental Changes for now. All point values are from the Master List of Limitations.

 

Overconfident: Very Common, Strong (20)

Driven to be the Best: Common, Strong (15)

Ailurophobia: Common, Total (20)

Code vs Killing: Common, Total (20)

Cannot Resist Taunting His Opponents In Combat: Common, Moderate (10)

Cannot Strike A Woman: Uncommon, Total (15)

Cannot Look Weak: Common, Strong (15)

Brash and Impulsive: Frequently, Greatly (15)

 

That's 130 Psychological Limitation points without even trying. Nevertheless, Ranma is still considered to be a popular character, at least among anime fans in the 90s.

 

Possibly this is because his other problems (Hunted by just about everyone wanting to kill him, marry him, or both) dwarf the Psych Limitations.

 

Honestly? The majority of those are Roleplaying quirks and not really Disadvantages.

 

Cannot Look Weak and Overconfident are almost different ways of saying the same thing.

Driven To Be The Best is definitely simply an aspect of Overconfident. So you've eliminated two right off the bat.

 

Cannot Hit A Woman, while it could be worth points, is probably more just an aspect worth RPing than an actual Disad/Limitation on the Character.

 

Brash And Impulsive you could easily just turn into a Reputation, and then play him that way (everyone KNOWS he's that way, so others can take advantage of it easily, or shun him appropriately).

 

 

Personally, I think you're coming at the Disadvantage issue from the wrong angle. Not everything about how a character acts is going to be a Psychological Limitation.

 

DNPC for example could be used to represent someone the character feels they must protect from harm - whether that person needs it or not, it's a "psychological" aspect represented in a different manner.

 

Looking at Ranma he also has:

Physical Limitation: changes gender when exposed to hot/cold water

Social Limitation: must keep gender swap secret from others (this is a lot like a Secret ID).

[Checkmate]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

The other thing you have to be careful of, is just because it's on the internet doesn't mean you should use it . The thing to remember is that if it doesn't disadvantage you, it's not worth any points.

 

For example Psych: Good Guy. How exactly does this disadvantage you? Well he can't be evil

 

Now as far as the character you describe:

Ever see the Punisher movie (the new one not the Dolf Lungren one)? You don't get much more of a reclusive loner than that, yet he had 3 DNPC's that kept sticking their nose in things.

 

Reps can follow you anywhere, even to a new city. Remember we live in an information age, where everything is broadcast over the internet as fast as the picture is taken.

 

50 points in Psych's and 50 points in Hunteds are pretty much a given, there's 100 points down without even sweating. 15 points on a Secret ID, 20 Points on a Code vs Killing and you're really looking at 15 points of disads you really have to think about.

 

5pt for a tatoo (easily concealable noticed and recognized), if the Tatoo is a swastika from an under cover assignment, the value goes up slightly.

 

I don't know, I agree with Hugh, the limits are to round your character out more and make sure all disads actually disadvantage you.

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

50 points in Psych's and 50 points in Hunteds are pretty much a given' date=' there's 100 points down without even sweating.[/quote']

 

50 points in Hunted? These are new heroes. They're only going to pick up Hunteds after the game starts. Would those count? If so, then yes, problem solved, but I was under the impression that they'd get the Hunteds after it happens in the story.

 

And I'm not talking about mystery Hunteds of "these people are after you, but you don't know that".

 

Again, if I'm approaching this the wrong way, please elaborate in simple terms.

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Cannot Look Weak and Overconfident are almost different ways of saying the same thing.

Driven To Be The Best is definitely simply an aspect of Overconfident. So you've eliminated two right off the bat.

 

I'll give you Cannot Look Weak being an aspect of Overconfident, but Driven To Be The Best is something that Genma and Nodoka have been hammering into him throughout his life. He's conditioned to want to be the best, regardless of his actual confidence level.

 

Cannot Hit A Woman, while it could be worth points, is probably more just an aspect worth RPing than an actual Disad/Limitation on the Character.

 

It's listed in the Master List. If it's not a Disadvantage, then I concede that it's not. (People have taken advantage of it in the series before, if I remember correctly. Mostly unscrupulous characters like Shampoo, and I think Nabiki at least once.)

 

Brash And Impulsive you could easily just turn into a Reputation, and then play him that way (everyone KNOWS he's that way, so others can take advantage of it easily, or shun him appropriately).

 

Fair enough. Conversely, if someone has a lot of Reputation points, one could turn Brash And Impulsive into a Psychological Limitation, couldn't they?

 

What I wanted to see with that exercise was if it was definitely true that having over 100 points of Psychological Limitations (the original claim was 70 to 80, I believe) would result in an un-fun and unbalanced character. In my view, just because Ranma may not actually get actual points for the Psych Limitations doesn't mean that he doesn't have them.

[Vondy]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

It's listed in the Master List. If it's not a Disadvantage, then I concede that it's not. (People have taken advantage of it in the series before, if I remember correctly. Mostly unscrupulous characters like Shampoo, and I think Nabiki at least once.)

 

 

The master list isn't an official resource, nor is it authoritative. Its one game-master's collection of limitations he, personally, would allow. Not all of them have appeared in published champions products, and even the one's that have appeared in published products remain within the purview of individual game-master's discretion. Every game-master is different, and every campaign is different. The character has to be right for the game-master you are playing with, not a third party game-master who published his personal campaign materials on the internet you aren't playing with. Citing the master list as a source is meaningless. Jack [the author of the master list] would allow it, Ghost-Angel wouldn't. I probably wouldn't, either. I think you have overlapping disadvantages, some of which amount to quirks or role-playing hooks and shouldn't grant points [though I, personally, allow people to define these things as 1 point quirks].

[Alibear]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

I too allow 5 points worth of GURPs quirks.

 

Many new heroes start off with hunteds as part of their origin or backstory. If all characters have problems coming up with disads the GM could simply rule that you only need to find 100 points and that he'd assign some which crop up in game.

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Okay, since the consensus appears to be that it makes for more interesting characters, but it's not actually crippling if I abolished that point limit, I'll just accept it as GM Discretion.

 

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

[boomer]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Okay' date=' since the consensus appears to be that it makes for more interesting characters, but it's not actually [i']crippling[/i] if I abolished that point limit, I'll just accept it as GM Discretion.

 

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

 

 

You're welcome.....also like it was mentioned above, play your character the way you want to. Every little character quirk doesn't have to be written down. I had a Feline character that was one of the Primitive ones, but longed to live in a City with the Civilized Felines. He got his wish, but was ashamed of his wild upbringing and amongst his own kind tried very hard to hide the fact he was in reality a Fe'ral instead of a Domi......not worthy of being a psych lim or worth any points (it's really not a disadvantage) but it was a personality quirk that helped me RP the character.

[Alibear]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Perhaps you could post the character so that we could see the whole picture so we could help with the disads. Maybe give you our ideas and input and see what would work with your campaign.

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Perhaps you could post the character so that we could see the whole picture so we could help with the disads. Maybe give you our ideas and input and see what would work with your campaign.

 

Right now all I have for description are notes, in the "like so-and-so from this anime, but also with aspects of such-and-such from the other anime, with a bit of this-and-that from yet another anime" vein. I'll need to clean it up first.

 

Also, since I'm working on three characters, each with their own Multiforms (and distinct personality changes), it's essentially six characters' worth of Disadvantages I have to come up with.

 

For no actual campaign, too. I'm doing this because I want to try the HERO System, without any actual game going on, or likely to accept the characters.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

While I'm fairly certain that this was never actually a factor in balancing Disadvantage points, I don't like characters having too many points of Psychological Disadvantages for one simple reason: Mental Transform is a pretty damn common power in my experience.

 

It's one thing to have 50 points of character defining Disadvantages removed by the resident Telepath. It's another thing for all of your disadvantages to be thus removed...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

50 points in Hunted? These are new heroes. They're only going to pick up Hunteds after the game starts. Would those count? If so' date=' then yes, problem solved, but I was under the impression that they'd get the Hunteds [i']after[/i] it happens in the story.

 

And I'm not talking about mystery Hunteds of "these people are after you, but you don't know that".

 

Again, if I'm approaching this the wrong way, please elaborate in simple terms.

 

In some ways you're putting the Cart Before The Horse here.

 

A Character puts "Hunted: Local Police, Watching, NCI" on their sheet (no Limited Geographic Area since most sessions will take place in the city anways).

 

They don't already have to be Watched by the Police at the start of the game. What they're telling you is when the encounter the police (presumably within the first half dozen game sessions or less) that the Police will, for whatever reason, find him suspicious and put him on the Watched List. Maybe it's even just one cop who has something against the guy - but he has the entire Police Force behind him (play up The Blue Wall) for the most part.

 

Not everything that is taken as a Disadvantage has to be immediately felt, or in place at the start of the game. Some of them you can say "ok, you don't have it yet - but it will come into play soon."

[Tonio]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Also remember that a new hero isn't necessarily a new hero in the campaign world. Just because you're starting to play the hero now doesn't mean they don't have a backstory.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

And a lot of the "gimmes" of DNPC or Reputation just don't fit. A reclusive loner (the 80-point Psych Limitation character) probably won't have a DNPC' date=' and for this character, I really cannot see her as she is with a DNPC of any sort. And being relatively new heroes in a small town, they don't have a Reputation that's worth any points.[/quote']

 

Which raises a major huge question, partly the bane of all roleplaying groups: if she's a reclusive loner what's she doing on a team? I know that may not apply since you're creating the character more or less in a vacuum, but the reality of playing the game means there are going to be other characters involved.

 

Also: saying "my guy is a reclusive loner, therefore I don't have to take any DNPCs" is a cop-out. Essentially means, I'm here to play the investigation and combat game; don't bother me with any of that drama stuff. Which may be cool with you, one never knows. (Another also: a DNPC isn't always your beloved SO or your child; it could be the reporter who dogs your every move trying to get the story of the century, to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Incredible Hulk is really Bruce Banner. Clark Kent may be in love with Lois Lane, but the reason she gets into trouble all the time, at least back in the days when she didn't know who Superman was, was that she kept trying to get the juicy scoop on Big Blue and getting stuck on a rooftop ledge when the destructo-rays started to fly, or else she was conveniently present when the villain needed a hostage.)

 

Regarding Overconfident and Cannot Appear Weak, those are definitely different. Overconfident means he bites off more than he can chew, and Cannot Appear Weak means that, while he may not be driven to take on more than he can handle, he will try to, if necessary, manipulate things so he comes out smelling like a rose.

 

It's one thing to have 50 points of character defining Disadvantages removed by the resident Telepath. It's another thing for all of your disadvantages to be thus removed...

 

As GM, I'd either call shenanigans on the telepath or make the character buy off the Disads. A Disadvantage that doesn't limit the character, etc.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Typically, if the Disadvantage is remove, you do have to buy it off or replace it with something else.

 

But that's a lot easier to do when it's only 50 points

[Silbeg]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

50 points in Hunted? These are new heroes. They're only going to pick up Hunteds after the game starts. Would those count? If so' date=' then yes, problem solved, but I was under the impression that they'd get the Hunteds [i']after[/i] it happens in the story.

 

And I'm not talking about mystery Hunteds of "these people are after you, but you don't know that".

 

Again, if I'm approaching this the wrong way, please elaborate in simple terms.

 

As a GM I would definitely allow for unassigned Hunted points. As an example from my current game, Flex, the team's brick, was "befriended" by Grond, after he helped Grond escape from captivity by VIPER. So, lucky Flex kept on receiving tokens of the big green guy's affection... statues from Memorial Park, billboards from Flex's movies (he was action movie star), and the like. Grond even visited Flex on set, which led to some hilarity, as Grond didn't quite understand that the movie villains were supposed to be hitting his personal hero.

 

Also remember that a Hunted doesn't have to be out to get you! In the case above, Grond probably did more damage with his love than he would have ever done with hate!

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Which raises a major huge question' date=' partly the bane of all roleplaying groups: if she's a reclusive loner what's she doing on a team? I know that may not apply since you're creating the character more or less in a vacuum, but the reality of playing the game means there are going to be other characters involved.[/quote']

 

Because she's Subject To Orders (by the Mysterious Group who gave her powers, and is also Watching her), and was told to join the party. There's actually a story reason behind it, but again, it's not supposed to unfold by the first few "sessions".

 

"Reclusive loner" might be too strong. She's a seventeen-year old girl, of the Loner type mentioned in Teen Champions. She has no friends, she barely speaks, and she is very messed up in the head. I created her as a contrast to the other two team members, one of whom is a polite shy girl, and the other is a loudmouthed cynic.

 

I mean, I could say that she's as lonely as pre-Haruhi Yuki Nagato, as mysterious as Zazie Rainyday, and more detached than Rei Ayanami, but I doubt anyone would get that.

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Also remember that a new hero isn't necessarily a new hero in the campaign world. Just because you're starting to play the hero now doesn't mean they don't have a backstory.

 

In this case, the characters just picked up their powers about a month or two ago, story-time. The obtaining of powers without any sacrifice will, in fact, be a theme in the uberplot.

 

I know that it sounds like I'm creating a whole gameworld. Technically I am; it's just that I have no players for it, and so I sock-puppet everything.

[Tonio]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Also: saying "my guy is a reclusive loner' date=' therefore I don't have to take any DNPCs" is a cop-out. Essentially means, I'm here to play the investigation and combat game; don't bother me with any of that drama stuff. Which may be cool with you, one never knows. [/quote']

 

That's overgeneralizing, and unfairly at that. Not every concept that doesn't call for a DNPC is created by players who don't want to be bothered "with any of that drama stuff". Note, for example, how this concept calls for a long list of Psychological Limitations, which usually open up RP and drama possibilities. Lack of a DNPC can itself be a drama hook (the character might feel less worthy than the others because she has nobody to look after, she might feel like nobody would trust her with their life).

 

Moreover, there's no need to justify the lack of a specific Disadvantage, barring any house rules or genre/campaign conventions (in a "mutants" game, you might need to justify why you're not taking the Mutant DF and still ahve powers), so not taking DNPC because you're a loner can't really be called a "cop-out".

 

In this case' date=' the characters just picked up their powers about a month or two ago, story-time. The obtaining of powers without any sacrifice will, in fact, be a theme in the uberplot.[/quote']

 

Ah, different situation then. In any case, as has been mentioned before, it's usually fine to take "mystery" Hunteds, which can be defined during gameplay. Also, even in your situation a Hunted might be in order... say a villain who's searching for people with newly developed powers for his own presumably evil ends, or some neutral scientific organization who wishes to study the phenomenon.

 

I know that it sounds like I'm creating a whole gameworld. Technically I am; it's just that I have no players for it' date=' and so I sock-puppet everything.[/quote']

 

Excellent! HERO's perfectly suited for creating gameworlds. Sure, there are many excellent campaign settings already created by HERO (like the Champions setting, for example), but by no means is a gaming group or GM meant to be limited to those!

[dkellis]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

I could go on and on about my planned story. Technically it could be set in the Champions-verse, but the CU metaplot is vague enough that I could leave it until I need to cross that bridge. (I really, really like the Champions metaplot. This could be because I like Foxbat, who has the best Psychological Limitation ever.)

 

In any case, the reason I asked the original question wasn't so much for these particular characters; I've already given them their 150 points of Disadvantages, with the max point limit of 50 per Category. I was asking more for general cases; it's like wanting a general code-breaking algorithm rather than a specific password.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

pre-Haruhi Yuki Nagato' date=' as mysterious as Zazie Rainyday, and more detached than Rei Ayanami, but I doubt anyone would get that.[/quote']

 

Wanna bet?

 

 

 

Anyways, getting back on the original point a little more - Disadvantages provide a framework - one of the best uses of that framework is as a series of hooks to get the Characters directly vested in the plot, and center it around them. You can use Disad's to highlight specific characters for a story arc quite nicely.

 

The artificial limit of "Nor More Than X In A Category" is mostly in place to encourage diversity. You could top load a character is Psych Lims without crippling them, but they would be ultimately boring once in play.

 

Like everything in the Hero System, they're tools to make things. Not boxes to limit things.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Disadvantage Point Limits.

 

Overconfident: Very Common, Strong (20)

Driven to be the Best: Common, Strong (15)

Ailurophobia: Common, Total (20)

Code vs Killing: Common, Total (20)

Cannot Resist Taunting His Opponents In Combat: Common, Moderate (10)

Cannot Strike A Woman: Uncommon, Total (15)

Cannot Look Weak: Common, Strong (15)

Brash and Impulsive: Frequently, Greatly (15)

 

That's 130 Psychological Limitation points without even trying. Nevertheless, Ranma is still considered to be a popular character, at least among anime fans in the 90s.

My take on this particular list (and not being familiar with the character):

 

Overconfident, Cannot resist Taunting Opponents, Brash and Impulsive, all, while not quite the same thing, do have considerable overlap. I might call it Overconfident, Brash, and Impulsive, Very Common, Total for 25 points.

 

I find it hard to justify 20 points for a fear of cats, but assuming he Totally wigs out around them, fine.

 

*** Separate Point ***

 

Also you can take other Mystery Disadvantages besides Mystery Hunteds. You could have a Mystery Vulnerability, or Susceptibility, or Rival, or Social or Psychological Limitation, etc.