Is it Flash or is it me?

[Kdansky]

I realized this a little while ago, but now I read on it on the 6th ED forums. Isn't Flash incredibly powerful? Assuming 60 AP limit, and nearly everyone sporting an Attack-MP, you pay 6 points (at most) for a 11d6 Flash against Sight and Hearing. Without Power Defense, your enemy is screwed royally for roughly a full turn. You might just get 5 fat attacks off against his probably halved DCV (after all, what sense is he going to use against you?)

Sure you *might* have backup senses or FD, but if you don't, that's the end?

 

Also: Assuming you are 1/2 DCV, have 8 CV, 2 combatlevels and you dodge, what DCV are you at?

(8+2+3) / 2 = 7?

 

And if I abort, can I move my combatlevels AND dodge, or do I have to chose one or the other?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I realized this a little while ago, but now I read on it on the 6th ED forums. Isn't Flash incredibly powerful? Assuming 60 AP limit, and nearly everyone sporting an Attack-MP, you pay 6 points (at most) for a 11d6 Flash against Sight and Hearing. Without Power Defense, your enemy is screwed royally for roughly a full turn. You might just get 5 fat attacks off against his probably halved DCV (after all, what sense is he going to use against you?)

Sure you *might* have backup senses or FD, but if you don't, that's the end?

 

Also: Assuming you are 1/2 DCV, have 8 CV, 2 combatlevels and you dodge, what DCV are you at?

(8+2+3) / 2 = 7?

 

And if I abort, can I move my combatlevels AND dodge, or do I have to chose one or the other?

 

After the first time a character is flashed, one of their next XP purchases will almost certainly be a pair of sunglasses

 

Also it is often wise to abort to dodge if you know you are about to be flashed - miss a phase and save being half DCV for a turn.

 

As to the DCV, I'm not sure what the definitive answer is, but I total DCV, then halve, so 8+2+3=13, then /2=7 (round up) - as you suggested. I think you can abourt and allocate a manouvre and combat levels.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I realized this a little while ago, but now I read on it on the 6th ED forums. Isn't Flash incredibly powerful? Assuming 60 AP limit, and nearly everyone sporting an Attack-MP, you pay 6 points (at most) for a 11d6 Flash against Sight and Hearing. Without Power Defense, your enemy is screwed royally for roughly a full turn. You might just get 5 fat attacks off against his probably halved DCV (after all, what sense is he going to use against you?)

Sure you *might* have backup senses or FD, but if you don't, that's the end?

 

Also: Assuming you are 1/2 DCV, have 8 CV, 2 combatlevels and you dodge, what DCV are you at?

(8+2+3) / 2 = 7?

 

And if I abort, can I move my combatlevels AND dodge, or do I have to chose one or the other?

 

Anything that halves DCV (or otherwise reduces it by a fraction or percentage -- including "to zero") is applied last when calculating DCV. The DCV checklist is on 5ER 372-372.

 

A character may perform more than one defensive Action while Aborting -- such as Aborting to Dodge and simultaneously activating a Defensive Power -- provided they're not mutually exclusive.

 

I would call re-assigning the CSLs (useable with the Aborted-to action) to DCV a Defensive Action, so I'd say yes.

 

Flashes and Entangles are often extremely effective. They are delaying tactics that allow a group to compensate for numerical inferiority. Especially if they affect an area...

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

After the first time a character is flashed' date=' one of their next XP purchases will almost certainly be a pair of sunglasses [/quote']

 

[ZZ Top]

When you get up in the morning and the light is hurt your head

The first thing you do when you get up out of bed

Is hit that streets a-runnin and try to beat the masses

And go get yourself some cheap sunglasses.

[/ZZ top]

 

Why do you think Corey Hart always Wears His Sunglasses At Night?

 

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

If you're looking at 60AP limits, you're probably playing a supers game, and in that genre, Flash Defense and Enhanced Senses aren't that uncommon. Maybe a particular character is screwed, but his teammate is probably either unaffected or only minorly inconvenienced.

[Kdansky]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

It's not so much the PCs. I'm talking about the poor NPCs If a PC sports 11d6 of flash, am I supposed to give each and every adversary FD?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

It's not so much the PCs. I'm talking about the poor NPCs If a PC sports 11d6 of flash' date=' am I supposed to give each and every adversary FD?[/quote']You still have to hit with a Flash attack. The characters most likely to be hit (such as bricks or mentalists) are often exactly those ones who either a) can take a few hits while they're blind or have Enhanced Senses such as Spatial Awareness. The characters least likely to be hit often have high enough DCV even blinded to avoid taking damage until their sight returns. IOW, Flash is a useful item in a combat repertoire but it's hardly a knockout.

 

In general I give about a third of my Champions supervillains Flash Defense and/or Powers that compensate for being blinded. If the hero team opened every combat with a Flash, it'd be a higher percentage. (We do have an EB with a Flash in his MP, but he generally prefers to just hit them with his 13d6 EB.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

It's not so much the PCs. I'm talking about the poor NPCs If a PC sports 11d6 of flash' date=' am I supposed to give each and every adversary FD?[/quote']

 

Definitely not, but then if the villains know they will be facing The Flasher, they may well take the precaution of getting SOME FD - not all of them - but some. In addition, if Flash proves to be a big problem, anyone using it will find themselves the target of a coordinated attack right at the start of combat if the villains have any sense at all.

 

Assuming the Flash is not AoE (at those totals) then villains will learn to abort to dodge or DFC when they are targeted by The Flasher.

 

This is a great opportunity to make combat much more tactical.

[Outsider]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

It's not so much the PCs. I'm talking about the poor NPCs If a PC sports 11d6 of flash' date=' am I supposed to give each and every adversary FD?[/quote']

 

An 11D6 EB will ruin the day of most NPCs also.

[gojira]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I don't know if this is still true, but the old (1980's) version of Flash could be defeated just by looking away/closing your eyes.

 

It seems most villains would get Flashed on or two times, then they'd wise up. No need for FD at all, really. After that, the player has to come up with some sort of surprise maneuver....

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I don't know if this is still true, but the old (1980's) version of Flash could be defeated just by looking away/closing your eyes.

 

It seems most villains would get Flashed on or two times, then they'd wise up. No need for FD at all, really. After that, the player has to come up with some sort of surprise maneuver....

 

Yup, still in the rules. If you are prepared for a Flash attack and you have some way to protect against it, you can reduce or eliminate the effects, at Ref's discretion. Of course that likely uses up your Phase...

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

... Or at least causes a DEX-delay in one's actions or puts them at a DCV and/or OCV penalty (IMO).

 

Though IIRC they no longer have to actively be facing you when you attack them (when flashing a sense with less than 360 degree sensing).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I don't know if this is still true, but the old (1980's) version of Flash could be defeated just by looking away/closing your eyes.

 

It seems most villains would get Flashed on or two times, then they'd wise up. No need for FD at all, really. After that, the player has to come up with some sort of surprise maneuver....

 

...yes, well, that sort of assumes that the flash is based on a bright light or a loud noise or whatever. It could be based on something entirely different - temporarily paralysing the optic nerve or whatever (although that is arguably NND) or some sort of gas that affects the senses. Hero is always on dodgy ground where it assumes sfx, and that is what this rule does IMO. I can understand it here - there are not many sfx for a 'straight' flash that cannot be overcome by simply blocking the sense, but of course, if you follow that through, you are voluntarily either blinding yourself, or turning away from an opponent - which should have CV implications.

 

I think it is easier to just allow an abort to dodge - if you are still hit you just were not quick enough.

 

Also, IIRC, was the original version of flash not AoE?

[Sidume]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Flash can be devastating. We usually use a house rule that makes it 10 pts/die instead of 5.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

OTOH, with the duration in Segments like it is now, unless you have a well-coordinated team the target will probably have recovered before anyone has a chance to do squat UNLESS you've got 6-12 dice, so Flash isn't all that great for low powered games (which seems ass backwards to me).

[CTaylor]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Flash is weird because it is less effective the slower you are. A low point flash might have little effect at all against a normal person (did you get 6 body on those dice? Then he misses a phase). That's why it used to work against phases, someone faster would recover quicker and that always made more sense to me. Now based on segments it's just strange. A speedster loses more phases than a normal person.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Well, SPD's only effect is to allow a character a certain number of actions, and I guess the powers that be decided that allowing SPD to affect how long someone was deprived of a Sense was outside that definition. Similar to how SPD is irrelevant to recovering from a Drain.

 

When it worked against Phases and faster characters recovered quicker, it could be said that it was one of the things encouraging SPD Inflation.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Well, SPD's only effect is to allow a character a certain number of actions, and I guess the powers that be decided that allowing SPD to affect how long someone was deprived of a Sense was outside that definition. Similar to how SPD is irrelevant to recovering from a Drain.

 

When it worked against Phases and faster characters recovered quicker, it could be said that it was one of the things encouraging SPD Inflation.

Despite the fact I run a high SPD character (SPD 9) in Champions, I think the way Flash Attack is done in 5ER is both fairer and more logical. It may cost the faster character more Phases, but she's also got more to spare.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Despite the fact I run a high SPD character (SPD 9) in Champions' date=' I think the way Flash Attack is done in 5ER is both fairer and more logical. It may cost the faster character more Phases, but she's also got more to spare.[/quote']

 

It doesn't take a very big Flash to make a SPD 9 character lose a couple of Phases, but it takes a huge Flash to make a SPD 2 character lose even a full Phase. That's where the power's broke. A superhero can get by with a 3d6 Flash and still have something to show, but a cop with a flashbang has to break campaign Active Power caps.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

It doesn't take a very big Flash to make a SPD 9 character lose a couple of Phases' date=' but it takes a huge Flash to make a SPD 2 character lose even a full Phase. That's where the power's broke. A superhero can get by with a 3d6 Flash and still have something to show, but a cop with a flashbang has to break campaign Active Power caps.[/quote']It would depend on when the Flash goes off. A 3d6 Flash may or may not fall on the SPD 2 character's Phase, but I don't think most characters will opt to be SPD 2 just to protect themselves from multi-Phase Flash attacks.

 

Police flash-bangs would be very small flash attacks (1d6 or 2d6 at best). Their effectiveness comes pretty much because they're always used in Phase 12. Since the real purpose of flash-bangs is to disorient targets and/or make them hesitate for a few seconds, I personally think they'd be better built as PRE attacks perhaps combined with a 1d6 Sight & Hearing Flash.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

A superhero can get by with a 3d6 Flash and still have something to show' date=' but a cop with a flashbang has to break campaign Active Power caps.[/quote']

 

A cop with a flashbang delays to throw it into the room on the segment before his next Phase. It goes boom, the next segment he and his buddies (who also delayed) bust down the door and swarm the place a single segment later.

[Basil]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Back when Adventurers Club was being published, there was a column called "GM Discretion," by Steve Perrin (IIRC). One idea put forward was to change Flash to "Dazzle". The idea was that the effect rolled on the "damage" dice is a minus to PER for the appropriate sense(s); if applicable it's also a minus to "To Hit". Each of the victim's Phases (as the last thing in the Phase), the modifier lessens by one.

 

So if someone if hit for 5 by Dazzle, they're -5 to PER with that sense/those senses for the first Phase, -4 the next, -3 the next, etc. Essentially, the victim "recovers" from being at reduced PER, based on the victim's SPD rather than the attacker, and without penalties to the faster compared to the slower.

 

Thus, the victim isn't "out of the fight", but is put at a disadvantage.

 

Frankly, if I ever ran a campaign, I'd use this as a house rule.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Back when Adventurers Club was being published, there was a column called "GM Discretion," by Steve Perrin (IIRC). One idea put forward was to change Flash to "Dazzle". The idea was that the effect rolled on the "damage" dice is a minus to PER for the appropriate sense(s); if applicable it's also a minus to "To Hit". Each of the victim's Phases (as the last thing in the Phase), the modifier lessens by one.

 

So if someone if hit for 5 by Dazzle, they're -5 to PER with that sense/those senses for the first Phase, -4 the next, -3 the next, etc. Essentially, the victim "recovers" from being at reduced PER, based on the victim's SPD rather than the attacker, and without penalties to the faster compared to the slower.

 

Thus, the victim isn't "out of the fight", but is put at a disadvantage.

 

Frankly, if I ever ran a campaign, I'd use this as a house rule.

I like that a lot. It's very realistic (having been dazzled by bright lights). It would be a great Limitation or legal variant of Flash (although I suppose it could be done with Change Environment or maybe even Darkness too.)

 

Repped.

[Basil]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I like that a lot. It's very realistic (having been dazzled by bright lights). It would be a great Limitation or legal variant of Flash (although I suppose it could be done with Change Environment or maybe even Darkness too.)

Seems like a rather large change to be "only" a LImitation. I'm not sure how the "cures with time" would be handled as a CE or Darkness. But, however you like it, go ahead.

 

Repped.

Thank 'e kindly.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Seems like a rather large change to be "only" a LImitation. I'm not sure how the "cures with time" would be handled as a CE or Darkness.

It'd probably be a pretty large Limitation; perhaps -¾ or -1.

 

I was thinking in terms of creating an effect like RL fog or smoke. These seldom totally obscure vision, but they make it harder to see the further you look through it. The way to do that would seem to be a penalty for how deep and/or dense the fog/smoke is and they generally thin out over time. That seems pretty similar in game effect to your Dazzle suggestion.

 

Perhaps we could have a new Limitation called Obscure which could be applied to Flash, Darkness, or other Powers.