Is it Flash or is it me?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

If it was just "Attack your friends/teammates!", then I could conceivably do less than a bang-up job at it -- and I could choose which friend to attack, and which attack to use as well. Though I wouldn't go so far as to say that I could attack with just 1d6 out of 12.

.

 

By the same token, most people aren't violently opposed to given their friends a very light punch that they know won't even hurt. Kind of like a "go you" punch in the shoulder. Many people aren't even normally against doing that.

 

So now you've rules lawyered yourself out of a situation where a mentalist needs EGO+40 to get you to attack your teammates (for real) into a situation where the mentalist only needs to get EGO+10 or +20 to get you to waste your phase, and possibly get in your teammates' way, wasting theirs as well.

 

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

By the same token, most people aren't violently opposed to given their friends a very light punch that they know won't even hurt. Kind of like a "go you" punch in the shoulder. Many people aren't even normally against doing that.

 

So now you've rules lawyered yourself out of a situation where a mentalist needs EGO+40 to get you to attack your teammates (for real) into a situation where the mentalist only needs to get EGO+10 or +20 to get you to waste your phase, and possibly get in your teammates' way, wasting theirs as well.

 

 

While they may not be violently opposed to giving a friend a very light punch, they are probably considerably more opposed to taking time out in the middle of a combat to do so.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

While they may not be violently opposed to giving a friend a very light punch' date=' they are probably considerably more opposed to taking time out in the middle of a combat to do so. [/quote']

 

That's why the mentalist needs more than EGO+0 to do it...

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

By the same token, most people aren't violently opposed to given their friends a very light punch that they know won't even hurt. Kind of like a "go you" punch in the shoulder. Many people aren't even normally against doing that.

 

So now you've rules lawyered yourself out of a situation where a mentalist needs EGO+40 to get you to attack your teammates (for real) into a situation where the mentalist only needs to get EGO+10 or +20 to get you to waste your phase, and possibly get in your teammates' way, wasting theirs as well.

 

 

Okay, okay, I see your point that it works both ways. Though that "go you" punch on the shoulder would be that 1d6 out of 12 I was referring to.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Changing what the character believes rather than what (s)he does sounds more like Telepathy (or MAYBE Mental Illusions) than Mind Control to me.

 

That was my initial impression as well. But after re-reading Mind Control, I realized it's not. The Mind Control table on p123 of 5ER says, for example: "Target will believe any statement that does not contradict strongly held personal beliefs or principles."

 

Telepathy deals only with communication, and Mental Illusions deals only with sensory input.

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

That's why the mentalist needs more than EGO+0 to do it...

 

I'd peg it as much higher than that. I'd set it as EGO+20 at the minimum.

 

Ego+0 is "Actions he is inclined to perform anyway". I wouldn't be inclined to take a phase out of combat to tap a teammate on the shoulder.

 

EGO+10 is "Actions he wouldn't mind doing". I would certainly mind taking a phase out of combat to tap a teammate on the shoulder.

 

EGO+20 is "Actions he is normally against doing". That would be the bare minimum for me at least.

 

EGO+30 is "Actions he is violently opposed to doing". That would certainly be enough.

 

So it would depend on how important the character in question feels that keeping focused on the combat is. The only way I could see EGO+10 working is if they considered the combat in question to be a cake walk.

[badger3k]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Getting off the Mind Control bit, how come nobody brought up the guy who flashed you. Sure, both the SPD 2 and SPD 6 lose half their phases (I agree that this is fair), but neither has anything to do with the guy who got them. He still has all his phases, and his actions are more important then yours - he's the guy who is going to clock you one. If both targets (2 and 6) get flashed for 6 segments, and Flashman has a SPD 4, he still has only two actions that might affect the targets. Neither target is at an advantage or disadvantage.

 

Offensively, both targets lose 1/2 their phases.

Defensively, both targets have the same disadvantage, since the villains SPD determines his actions, not the target SPD.

 

Heck, if the GM is willing, I'm sure that a Dispel or Healing (or Aid even) could be built to counter the effects of Flash.

 

Flash Recovery: Dispel Flash 6d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (36 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)

 

I know that for a fantasy game, a spell like this might get rid of the effects of a magical flash effect. In a superhero game...perhaps. This is more of an all or nothing, but even a supress might work, if the GM lets it.

 

You can also buy penalty skill levels or CSLs that are "only to counter Flash effects" as well, if the Flash Defense does not work for the character concept.

 

Maybe the 6th edition needs to have some power that works on penalties like this?

[Kdansky]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Eh, you cannot really put Persistent and Always On on an Instant Power, it would have to be Constant first. You'd rather use a Trigger, or just apply it as-is. After all, while you are flashed, you can still target yourself without any trouble. ... Which would still require GM permission since you would have to dispell the Flash not off yourself, but off your enemy. Dispell is weird sometimes. The official way to do this is Healing I believe.

[Tonio]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Eh' date=' you cannot really put Persistent and Always On on an Instant Power, it would have to be Constant first.[/quote']

 

While this (your statement, that is) is entirely logical and balanced, the 5ER does allow Persistent on Instant powers. They become Constant for free.

 

Persistent

Value: +½

 

An Instant or Constant Power with this +½ Advantage

becomes a Persistent Power — it remains

“turned on” even though the character is unconscious.

Th e power must fi rst cost no END, or be

bought to Reduced Endurance (0 END). A Persistent

Power costs 0 END to maintain, and remains

turned on until the character consciously decides to

turn it off or dies. (See page 100 for more information

on Persistent Powers).

 

That makes no sense to me... a power should be Constant before being allowed to be made Persistent. Makes little sense that Continuous does less and costs twice as much!

[lunaticlord]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

After the first time a character is flashed, one of their next XP purchases will almost certainly be a pair of sunglasses

 

With that logic, you would have thought Batman would have long ago spared a few bucks to incorporate a gas mask in his costume over the years!!

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

While this (your statement' date=' that is) is entirely logical and balanced, the 5ER [i']does[/i] allow Persistent on Instant powers. They become Constant for free.

 

 

 

That makes no sense to me... a power should be Constant before being allowed to be made Persistent. Makes little sense that Continuous does less and costs twice as much!

 

Buying Persistent on a Power does not automatically make it Constant/Continuous.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

With that logic' date=' you would have thought Batman would have long ago spared a few bucks to incorporate a gas mask in his costume over the years!! [/quote']

 

He's a point whore so he bought it as a Utility belt slot.

[badger3k]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

With that logic' date=' you would have thought Batman would have long ago spared a few bucks to incorporate a gas mask in his costume over the years!! [/quote']

 

Now, don't you mean "Bat-Gas-Mask", old chum?

[badger3k]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Eh' date=' you cannot really put Persistent and Always On on an Instant Power, it would have to be Constant first. You'd rather use a Trigger, or just apply it as-is. After all, while you are flashed, you can still target yourself without any trouble. ... Which would still require GM permission since you would have to dispell the Flash not off yourself, but off your enemy. Dispell is weird sometimes. The official way to do this is Healing I believe.[/quote']

 

I went with the interpretation given after that, but I can see Trigger as being useful. I put it "self-only" since it cannot be used to dispel the flash effects on anybody else. Remember that this interpretation is really aimed at the effects rather than the actual Flash.

 

It might be more mechanically sound (and require less GM approval) to do it as a triggered Flash Suppress:

 

Suppress Flash 6d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2) 24 Real Points

 

I'm not sure if trigger is needed, since it is always on in this case. Without that...

 

Suppress Flash 6d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; when Flashed; +1) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost: 37

 

More expensive, and if it is supposed to replicate a speedsters ability to recover fast from some attacks, the first is more of the way to go. Other abilities might be better off as the second.

 

Of course, you can also charge END for this, making it an ability which drains the body of resources a little bit more (say, Flash speeding up his body to throw off the effects).

 

Suppress Flash 6d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; when Flashed; +1) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost: 30, 6 END

 

How's that?

 

edit - I didn't make this continuous, as Flash is an Instant Power and I didn't think it was needed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Eh' date=' you cannot really put Persistent and Always On on an Instant Power, it would have to be Constant first. ........................[/quote']

 

 

Oh you are SO right, if only the rules agreed, like they used to. This was not one of the crowning moments of glory in 5th.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

With that logic' date=' you would have thought Batman would have long ago spared a few bucks to incorporate a gas mask in his costume over the years!! [/quote']

 

...and Superman would have bought off his 10 point susceptibility to Kryptonite

[Kdansky]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Wait a moment, you are serious on this? But that's totally ridiculous?! Why should a Persistent Power cost less than a Constant Power?

 

5ER has just taken a huge hit for me. It's time for 6th. Let's hope steve finally fixes the glaring problems (KA, strength, figureds, THIS ONE!)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Wait a moment' date=' you are serious on this? But that's totally ridiculous?! Why should a Persistent Power cost less than a Constant Power?[/quote']I would assume it's because a Persistent Power is a normally non-Constant Power which has been made Constant by purchasing Persistant whereas Constant itself is a property of the Power itself rather than an Advantage. Constant Powers ordinarily use END, so making a normally non-Constant Power Persistant (and hence Constant) makes the Power use END as well. That's a Limitation in and of itself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

I would assume it's because a Persistent Power is a normally non-Constant Power which has been made Constant by purchasing Persistant whereas Constant itself is a property of the Power itself rather than an Advantage. Constant Powers ordinarily use END' date=' so making a normally non-Constant Power Persistant (and hence Constant) makes the Power use END as well. That's a Limitation in and of itself.[/quote']

 

The problem is in the pricing.

 

An attack power is typically instant.

 

If I double the cost, it becomes continuous. It's still there, it requires no further attack rolls and it keeps going. But I still have to spend time maintaining it (IIRC), and I still have to spend END every phase.

 

Or I can double the cost with 0 END and Persistent. It's still there, it requires no further attack rolls and it keeps going. And I still need spend no time maintaining it, and I spend no END on the power.

 

I think it's pretty clear which of these constructs is more powerful. The more powerful one should cost more, not the same.

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Wait a moment, you are serious on this? But that's totally ridiculous?! Why should a Persistent Power cost less than a Constant Power?

 

5ER has just taken a huge hit for me. It's time for 6th. Let's hope steve finally fixes the glaring problems (KA, strength, figureds, THIS ONE!)

 

I would assume it's because a Persistent Power is a normally non-Constant Power which has been made Constant by purchasing Persistant whereas Constant itself is a property of the Power itself rather than an Advantage. Constant Powers ordinarily use END' date=' so making a normally non-Constant Power Persistant (and hence Constant) makes the Power use END as well. That's a Limitation in and of itself.[/quote']

 

Except that making an Instant Power Persistent doesn't make it Constant.

 

Buying Continuous for an Instant Power means that you can continue using it from Phase to Phase without having to roll to hit again unless you switch targets. Buying Persistent on an Instant Power just means that it doesn't turn off if you get knocked out or Stunned. You still have to roll to hit every time you use it, even if you keep using it against the same target.

 

Just because a Power has been made Persistent doesn't mean that it is now Constant/Continuous.

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

The problem is in the pricing.

 

An attack power is typically instant.

 

If I double the cost, it becomes continuous. It's still there, it requires no further attack rolls and it keeps going. But I still have to spend time maintaining it (IIRC), and I still have to spend END every phase.

 

Or I can double the cost with 0 END and Persistent. It's still there, it requires no further attack rolls and it keeps going. And I still need spend no time maintaining it, and I spend no END on the power.

 

I think it's pretty clear which of these constructs is more powerful. The more powerful one should cost more, not the same.

 

Unless you buy Continuous on the Instant as well, you do indeed have to make further attack rolls. There is nothing in the text of Persistent that states that it makes Instants Constant. And there is nothing in the text that states that you don't need to make further attack rolls.

[Tonio]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Unless you buy Continuous on the Instant as well' date=' you do indeed have to make further attack rolls. There is nothing in the text of Persistent that states that it makes Instants Constant. And there is nothing in the text that states that you don't need to make further attack rolls.[/quote']

 

Oohh... I went back and re-read the section on the Persistent Advantage, as well as the text on page 100 of 5ER (relating to Persistent Powers). I had been operating under a misunderstanding. Although it's not explicitly spelled out (and the only reason it would need to is to avoid confusion to us old-timers who are used to Persistent only being applicable to Constant Powers), a Persistent, Instant Power's effects don't apply continuously; it's just that the Power stays on. I guess this would only matter for powers that had Extra Time, Only to Activate.

 

On the other hand... on page 100, under Converting Persistent Powers to Constant Powers, it says that if you take Activation Roll or Costs END (but not RSR?) on a Persistent Power, it becomes Constant instead.

 

Read strictly, this would mean a 6d6 EB, 0END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4), I end up with a Constant EB which basically gets 0END for free.

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Oohh... I went back and re-read the section on the Persistent Advantage' date=' as well as the text on page 100 of 5ER (relating to Persistent Powers). I [i']had[/i] been operating under a misunderstanding. Although it's not explicitly spelled out (and the only reason it would need to is to avoid confusion to us old-timers who are used to Persistent only being applicable to Constant Powers), a Persistent, Instant Power's effects don't apply continuously; it's just that the Power stays on. I guess this would only matter for powers that had Extra Time, Only to Activate.

 

On the other hand... on page 100, under Converting Persistent Powers to Constant Powers, it says that if you take Activation Roll or Costs END (but not RSR?) on a Persistent Power, it becomes Constant instead.

 

Read strictly, this would mean a 6d6 EB, 0END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4), I end up with a Constant EB which basically gets 0END for free.

 

Actually it wouldn't, because you cannot put Activation Roll on a Power that you have purchased Persistent on. They are mutually exclusive. The only Persistent Powers that the conversion to Constant applies to are Powers that are innately Persistent.

[Tonio]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

Actually it wouldn't' date=' because you cannot put Activation Roll on a Power that you have purchased Persistent on. They are mutually exclusive. The only Persistent Powers that the conversion to Constant applies to are Powers that are innately Persistent.[/quote']

 

While that makes sense... I can't find it anywhere in the rulebook... reference?

[archermoo]

Re: Is it Flash or is it me?

 

While that makes sense... I can't find it anywhere in the rulebook... reference?

 

I don't recall if it is something that has been specifically stated or not. I also don't recall if there is something that specifically forbids taking canceling Advantages and Limitations over and over just to reduce the cost of a Power. But that doesn't mean that you can buy 8 iterations of Persistent and 8 iterations of Non-Persistent on your 10PD/10ED 0END Force Field to make it cost 22 instead of 30.

 

A Power that has Costs END or Activation Roll (and potentially other Modifiers depending on circumstances) cannot be Persistent. Therefor taking the Persistent advantage on such a Power would be invalid. If you don't think I'm right, feel free to ask Steve.