How do you put someone to sleep?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

It is an interesting point - what can you make someone do with mind control? Well, you can probably make them do anything they could normally do. How far the control extends is a matter of personal taste and possibly sfx. For instance one version of mind control might be pheremone based - so you are already hitting someone with chemicals that have a physiological reaction: MC - Sleep doesn't feel like that much of a stretch.

 

I would not limit mind control to being able to do something that you can only do consciously, but it would have to be something you were capable of. I see 'going to sleep' as something most people are capable of (even if it is just closing your eyes and slowing breathing and heartbeat), though they might not be able to consciously drop off at that moment.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Your mind is your brain.

 

The mind, to me, is conscious. The brain could continue to pump blood and suck in oxygen without your mind - but you are in a vegetative state.

 

That's true. It also has nothing to do with controlling your heart or breathing. Those things are controlled by your brain.

 

So stop your heart. Not slow it - complete stop. Or take six caffeine pills and then go to sleep. Not just lay down and make snoring noises - will yourself to sleep.

 

If Mind Control can control autonomic reactions, it becomes vastly overpowered. For +30 effect, I can cause your nervous system to shut down until you make an Ego roll to break out? Can I cause your body temperature to rise or fall by 15 degrees? Why can't I start by commanding you to STOP attempting breakout rolls? That's something your unconscious mind is taking care of. How about shutting off your immune system, or having your plumbing release all those toxins into your blood? Why not just cause you to stop transmitting oxygen to your brain?

 

It is an interesting point - what can you make someone do with mind control? Well, you can probably make them do anything they could normally do. How far the control extends is a matter of personal taste and possibly sfx. For instance one version of mind control might be pheremone based - so you are already hitting someone with chemicals that have a physiological reaction: MC - Sleep doesn't feel like that much of a stretch.

 

I would not limit mind control to being able to do something that you can only do consciously, but it would have to be something you were capable of. I see 'going to sleep' as something most people are capable of (even if it is just closing your eyes and slowing breathing and heartbeat), though they might not be able to consciously drop off at that moment.

 

I think MC could force you to close your eyes, slow your breathing and relax - ie PRETEND to sleep. Under the right circumstances, you might just nod off if this were sustained long enough. But if you're an hour past awaking from a good night's sleep and jacked up on caffeine, you aren't going to fall asleep.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

....................

 

I think MC could force you to close your eyes, slow your breathing and relax - ie PRETEND to sleep. Under the right circumstances, you might just nod off if this were sustained long enough. But if you're an hour past awaking from a good night's sleep and jacked up on caffeine, you aren't going to fall asleep.

 

 

...but if you are doing a good enough impression, to all practical intent it may not matter.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The mind' date=' to me, is conscious. The brain could continue to pump blood and suck in oxygen without your mind - but you are in a vegetative state.[/quote']

That's a common misconception. The fact is that there is no invisible driver that sits in your brain cells. Consciousness is the product of many brain cells working in concert. When they work out of concert (you have brain damage; you've changed your brain chemistry with pills or booze; etc.) your mind fails to work.

 

When you are asleep, your brain is doing other work. Not work that we associate with consciousness, but work nonetheless. Sleeping people can be roused.

 

When you are knocked out, your brain is typically doing little to no work. It usually maintains your heart and lungs. You cannot be roused. People can perform surgery on you and you do not notice or cease to be knocked out.

 

So stop your heart. Not slow it - complete stop. Or take six caffeine pills and then go to sleep. Not just lay down and make snoring noises - will yourself to sleep.

I can't. Haven't learned to do it. That doesn't necessarily mean that I couldn't if I was Mind Controlled.

 

Mental Illusions allow you to give people sensory input that simply is not there. Can you will yourself to really see something that is not there? Really fool yourself into it? I can't. Doesn't stop the Power from working.

 

If Mind Control can control autonomic reactions' date=' it becomes vastly overpowered. For +30 effect, I can cause your nervous system to shut down until you make an Ego roll to break out?[/quote']

As I wrote before, a GM would be well in his rights to say that the power could be better modeled in a different way.

 

You could easily write this up as an Entangle.

 

Can I cause your body temperature to rise or fall by 15 degrees?

Start a fever? Sure. Why not? Or write it up as an NND or an AVLD or some such and just say that it works by raising/lowering body temperature. Probably a lot easier, faster and more sure-fire.

 

Why can't I start by commanding you to STOP attempting breakout rolls?

Game mechanics.

 

How about shutting off your immune system' date=' or having your plumbing release all those toxins into your blood? Why not just cause you to stop transmitting oxygen to your brain?[/quote']

Unless your GM objects, why not? You can model all those things with other powers.

 

I think MC could force you to close your eyes' date=' slow your breathing and relax - ie PRETEND to sleep. Under the right circumstances, you might just nod off if this were sustained long enough. But if you're an hour past awaking from a good night's sleep and jacked up on caffeine, you aren't going to fall asleep.[/quote']

So it's harder to make the Mind Control stick. That's no problem -- make the target number higher. If the person with Mind Control has poured enough points into the power to make this work, let it work!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I can't. Haven't learned to do it. That doesn't necessarily mean that I couldn't if I was Mind Controlled.

 

Then why can't you play the piano when mind controlled, even if you haven't learned how to play the piano?

 

Mental Illusions allow you to give people sensory input that simply is not there. Can you will yourself to really see something that is not there? Really fool yourself into it? I can't. Doesn't stop the Power from working.

 

Mental Illusions is a different mechanic. It doesn't make you go to sleep either, by the way. It could fool you into laying down to go to sleep, though. And Mind Control could convince you to do the same. Neither one makes you "asleep" with any less a kludge than reducing STUN to/below nil.

 

Game mechanics.

 

Mind Control itself is a game mechanic.

 

So it's harder to make the Mind Control stick. That's no problem -- make the target number higher. If the person with Mind Control has poured enough points into the power to make this work' date=' [i']let it work![/i]

 

No matter how many points you pour into Energy Blast, it doesn't enable you to turn the target into a purple spotted warthog. It enables you to inflict damage. Mind Control enables you to influence a target to do something they could do, but otherwise might choose not to. I can't mind control you to change into a purple spotted warthog either, unless you were already able to do so.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

One of the most elegant ways I've seen for doing a "Sleep" mechanic was suggested by Dave Mattingly. It's not technically book legal, but I like it anyway.

 

Dispel vs. STUN.

 

It's all or nothing (you either Dispel their entire STUN total and put them to sleep, or it has no effect). And you haven't really damaged them -- you haven't reduced their STUN to zero. You've simply turned their STUN off. (And decided that the campaign ground rules interpret STUN being turned off as being a normal sleep state.)

 

At that point, the sleeping person can't necessarily consciously choose to turn the STUN right back on (being asleep, he can't consciously choose anything). But anything that would normally wake a sleeping person will allow him to turn his STUN back on (to full value, since he wasn't damaged, it was just turned off).

 

Things that would wake him up would of course include loud noises, being struck, falling down while asleep, etc. In other words, all sorts of things that would routinely happen in combat. So such a power wouldn't necessarily have lots of combat applicability.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Then why can't you play the piano when mind controlled' date=' even if you haven't learned how to play the piano?[/quote']

If I were mind controlled to play the piano, I'd play the piano. Not well. But I'd try. Playing the piano well is a learned thing. Sleeping is not.

 

Mind Control clearly allows you to do such things as make someone fall in love. I think most people would agree that falling in love is about as fundamental as sleeping. You clearly don't. I can live with that.

 

Mind Control enables you to influence a target to do something they could do' date=' but otherwise might choose not to.[/quote']

Such as go to sleep.

Or fall in love.

Or be gripped by terror.

 

Mind Control does not make someone choose to do something. It makes them do it. Naturally, if they cannot do something (such as change color or species), they won't be able.

Naturally, if someone were hopped up on speed and in the middle of combat, it would be physically difficult for them to go to sleep. Despite that, they could manage it if the Mind Control were powerful enough.

 

A 2d6 Energy Blast can't blast through a tank. A 200d6 Energy Blast can.

 

A 2d6 Mind Control won't be able to put most normal people to sleep. A 200d6 Mind Control will.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Dispel vs. STUN.

 

It's all or nothing (you either Dispel their entire STUN total and put them to sleep, or it has no effect). And you haven't really damaged them -- you haven't reduced their STUN to zero. You've simply turned their STUN off. (And decided that the campaign ground rules interpret STUN being turned off as being a normal sleep state.)

I appreciate the idea.

 

I suppose that my question from the get-go has really been about that relationship between STUN and sleep. I don't think there should be one.

 

If you've decided that the campaign ground rules interpret STUN being turned off as being a normal sleep state, however, you've got it!

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I actually like the "entangle-as-sleep" idea proposed above. Get an entangle based on ego, have it block sight and hearing, and bob's yer-uncle, you're (simulating) sleeping pretty well. You can't move, you can't hear, and you can't see. Of course the Stun/off = sleeping idea is pretty interesting, too.

[Checkmate]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Mind Control does not make someone choose to do something. It makes them do it.

I'm not sure I agree here. I think Mind Control makes you choose an action. It makes you choose to TRY to go to sleep, or choose to love someone. Semantics really.

 

I still like my SFX thing. Sometimes losing all your STUN is you're knocked out, sometimes losing all your STUN is asleep, depending on your SFX. Just like sometimes a 6d6 NND EB is a nerve punch, and sometimes a 6d6 NND EB is squeezing all the air out of someone. Same mechanic, just different SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I'm not sure I agree here. I think Mind Control makes you choose an action. It makes you choose to TRY to go to sleep, or choose to love someone. Semantics really.

 

I still like my SFX thing. Sometimes losing all your STUN is you're knocked out, sometimes losing all your STUN is asleep, depending on your SFX. Just like sometimes a 6d6 NND EB is a nerve punch, and sometimes a 6d6 NND EB is squeezing all the air out of someone. Same mechanic, just different SFX.

 

A potential problem is that, whilst being out of stun accurately simulates BEING asleep, it does not accurately simulate the state of sleep, eg that you can wake up if disturbed but probably won't if not disturbed until all your sleep needs are fulfilled, so, for instance, if you put someone who has been awake for 18 hours to sleep, you have a reasonable expectation that, absent outside stimulii, they will probably remain asleep for several hours. The Nostun=sleep hypothesis does not account for that.

 

No problem calling a stun attack a sleep spell, but it doesn't really simulate the way sleep works; as a straightforward power, not a problem, but you need a more complex build to do 'real' sleep.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Of course the Stun/off = sleeping idea is pretty interesting' date=' too.[/quote']

 

I'm referring to the Suppress Stun option in case I wasn't being clear.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The Mind Control option works pretty well if you're some sort of super-sleep therapist, helping people fall asleep.

 

For combat purposes, attacking STUN is the way to go, whether you do it with a Drain, NND, or Suppress.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

For combat purposes' date=' attacking STUN is the way to go, whether you do it with a Drain, NND, or Suppress.[/quote']

The whole point of this thread is that when you reduce someone to zero or negative STUN, they're knocked out -- not asleep. The rules for handling someone who is knocked out are different for handling someone who is asleep.

 

Here are a few of problems to consider:

• A target is punched for a certain amount of STUN damage and hit by a sleep spell for a certain amount of STUN damage. The target's STUN is reduced to -11 by the combination. Are they knocked out or asleep? If they're knocked out, they won't be bouncing right back. If they're asleep, the fall to the ground might well wake them up.
  
• Targets with a high STUN are harder to put to sleep than targets with a low STUN. Why?
  
• If someone is hopped up on coffee, they're STUN does not change. But it ought to be harder to make them go to sleep. Your method doesn't take that into account.
  
• If someone is really, really tired, they're still at full STUN. It ought to be easier to make them go to sleep. Your method doesn't take that into account.
  

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I actually like the "entangle-as-sleep" idea proposed above. Get an entangle based on ego' date=' have it block sight and hearing, and bob's yer-uncle, you're (simulating) sleeping pretty well. You can't move, you can't hear, and you can't see.[/quote']

 

Except that most people move around when they sleep. Some people even walk.

 

You would need something like an Entangle that does not impede movement. Which doesn't much sound like an Entangle to me.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I'm not sure I agree here. I think Mind Control makes you choose an action. It makes you choose to TRY to go to sleep' date=' or choose to love someone. Semantics really.[/quote']

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think this is significantly more than semantics. I think you're limiting the power.

 

I still like my SFX thing. Sometimes losing all your STUN is you're knocked out' date=' sometimes losing all your STUN is asleep, depending on your SFX. Just like sometimes a 6d6 NND EB is a nerve punch, and sometimes a 6d6 NND EB is squeezing all the air out of someone. Same mechanic, just different SFX.[/quote']

I appreciate and understand the idea. But I disagree. I just don't think there should be any connection between your current STUN and whether or not you're asleep. STUN is used to determine whether or not you're knocked out. The mechanics behind being knocked out and being asleep are different, so I think the determiner should be different.

 

I think that Transform and Mind Control do a better job.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The whole point of this thread is that when you reduce someone to zero or negative STUN' date=' they're knocked out -- not asleep. The rules for handling someone who is knocked out are different for handling someone who is asleep.[/quote']

 

Quoted for truth.

 

In theory, a player could say to the GM, "My character goes to sleep." Absent obvious extenuating circumstances, the GM would be well within his rights to say "Okay, make an EGO roll to go to sleep." Perhaps at some minor penalties for circumstances. (A GM who would say "Absolutely not, sleep is not a voluntary process," is not someone who I want to game with -- and I have to wonder about that person's sleeping habits, anyway.)

 

The point is, a character can try, and upon trying, has a chance of succeeding.

 

To make an analogy: a character can be Mind Controlled to jump over an obstacle. Doesn't mean he necessarily is physically capable of doing so, but he'll try and, if he can, will succeed.

 

For purposes of Mind Control, a character who is in the middle of combat and under attack is likely Violently Opposed to sleeping right then.

 

Some additional data points:

 

• There is a Life Support that keeps you from having to sleep. No one would seriously argue this protects a character from going unconscious
  
• In nearly every place where the word "sleep" is mentioned in 5er, it's part of the phrase "asleep or Knocked Out" or some near variation. If it were the case that they were the same, there would likely be one word used to describe both conditions.
  
• In one very specific place in 5er (the description of Telepathy), the author makes it a point to specify the differences between a sleeping and unconscious mind
  
• Under the description of Cumulative, the example character uses a Mind Control with the command "go to sleep".
  

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

The whole point of this thread is that when you reduce someone to zero or negative STUN, they're knocked out -- not asleep. The rules for handling someone who is knocked out are different for handling someone who is asleep.

 

Here are a few of problems to consider:

• A target is punched for a certain amount of STUN damage and hit by a sleep spell for a certain amount of STUN damage. The target's STUN is reduced to -11 by the combination. Are they knocked out or asleep? If they're knocked out, they won't be bouncing right back. If they're asleep, the fall to the ground might well wake them up.
  
• Targets with a high STUN are harder to put to sleep than targets with a low STUN. Why?
  
• If someone is hopped up on coffee, they're STUN does not change. But it ought to be harder to make them go to sleep. Your method doesn't take that into account.
  
• If someone is really, really tired, they're still at full STUN. It ought to be easier to make them go to sleep. Your method doesn't take that into account.
  

 

For combat purposes, putting someone "to sleep" at such a low level of sleep that falling to ground wakes them up is not very useful. For all intents and purposes, if you are putting someone "to sleep" in combat, like the classic Sleep spell or sleeping gas, you're knocking them out.

 

If high STUN is a problem, make the attack bigger. If stimulants SHOULD be a problem, add a limitation. If fatigue should make it easier, add more dice of attack with a limitation that it only works on tired targets. If for some reason you want the target to wake up as he falls to the ground, you can build your sleep attack in some other way, but that seems to me to be counterproductive.

 

EDIT: And I should add that I see no problem with using Mind Control to make someone sleep, but if the GM is going to rule that he wakes up when he falls, I have better ways to spend my points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

To make an analogy: a character can be Mind Controlled to jump over an obstacle. Doesn't mean he necessarily is physically capable of doing so' date=' but he'll try and, if he can, will succeed.[/quote']

 

Sure, he can try. But the fact that Mind Control got +30 does not ENABLE the character to fall asleep, any more than it enables him to jump over the obstacle - it forces him to try.

 

For purposes of Mind Control' date=' a character who is in the middle of combat and under attack is likely Violently Opposed to sleeping right then. [/quote']

 

I would say he is Violently Opposed to attempting to sleep right then. However, even if he wantedto sleep, perhaps due to Mind Control or perhaps to show his utter disdain for this conflict, the noise level would still be problematic.

 

Some additional data points:

 

• There is a Life Support that keeps you from having to sleep. No one would seriously argue this protects a character from going unconscious

 
There is a Life Support that protects you from extreme heat. The rules clearly state that this does not protect a character from attacks using extreme heat.
 

In nearly every place where the word "sleep" is mentioned in 5er' date=' it's part of the phrase "asleep or Knocked Out" or some near variation. If it were the case that they were the same, there would likely be one word used to describe both conditions. [/quote']
 
On the other hand, if the differences were substantial, why would the one never appear without reference to the other. It sounds like "asleep" must be very similar to "knocked out" if it appears almost exclusively in the same context.
 

In one very specific place in 5er (the description of Telepathy)' date=' the author makes it a point to specify the differences between a sleeping and unconscious mind[/quote']
 
If I read this correctly, you were able to find only one place where "asleep" and "unconscious" differ in the rules. That seems to indicate substantial similarly, rather than significant differences. The minor differences would reasonably be SFX - cold and flame differ in sfx, but appear as identical mechanical constructs in many cases.
 

Under the description of Cumulative, the example character uses a Mind Control with the command "go to sleep".

 

This is of more use - is there any indication of the impact of this command - ie does he fall asleep or does he simply try to fall asleep?

 

If Mind Control can cause a character to sleep, regardless of the extenuating circumstances which would prevent sleep even if desired by the character, what else can it override? For example, can I mind control a character to "Drop Dead!"?

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

If I read this correctly' date=' you were able to find only one place where "asleep" and "unconscious" differ in the rules.[/quote']

 

From the original post:

The Lightsleep Telent (5ER page 90) notes how one can make a PER Roll to wake up when someone enters the room -- clearly not something an unconscious person can do.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

if the GM is going to rule that he wakes up when he falls' date=' I have better ways to spend my points.[/quote']

That's true. What you want is to knock someone out. Spend your points accordingly.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

How about a big old Energy Blast (big enough to for the biggest creature this attack is meant to be used on), NND (does not affect LS: no need to sleep), Power is fully negated by circumstances that could cause the character to wake up (-1 1/2 or so)? That's a fairly straightforward build that doesn't put non-sleepers to sleep, and isn't a really deep "knockout" sleep. If the character loses all his STUN in the attack, he goes to sleep. When he wakes up, he's at full STUN.

 

Basically, what we have here are poorly defined parameters for what "sleep" means. We're reasoning from a thousand different perceptions and interpretations of the effects, without having clearly defined the effects.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

If Mind Control can cause a character to sleep' date=' regardless of the extenuating circumstances which would prevent sleep even if desired by the character, what else can it override? For example, can I mind control a character to "Drop Dead!"?[/quote']

In my opinion, you need to first let go of this "desire" word. Mind Control is not "desire" control. In an older version of Ultimate Mentalist there was a fine example of using this power in which someone is Mind Controlled to climb to the top of a tall building and leap off. The Mind Control victim climbed the stairs saying, "Someone help me, I'm going to leap off this building!" He certainly didn't desire to climb off the building. Despite that, he was doing his best to complete the order as given.

 

Mind Control can cause a character to sleep. Extenuating circumstances which would prevent sleep -- whether desired or not by the character -- make it harder to get Mind Control to work. Odds are that if they are in combat and have been drinking a lot of coffee, your target number will be so high that only the very greatest mentalist in the world would have a decent chance. Which is as it should be!

 

If you just want the character out of combat, knock them out. It's a lot easier than putting someone to sleep.

 

I think that most GMs would agree that a Mind Control command to "Drop Dead" is better modeled by other powers. Cheaper, too, when you consider the astronomical target number you'd be rolling for.

 

There are good ways to use other powers to model Mind Control commands like:

 

• have a heart attack
  
• be blind
  
• trigger all the adrenaline in your body to dump at once
  
• do not move
  
• drop dead
  

But so far I have found that the only really satisfying alternative power for modeling putting someone to sleep is Transform.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

How about a big old Energy Blast (big enough to for the biggest creature this attack is meant to be used on)' date=' NND (does not affect LS: no need to sleep), Power is fully negated by circumstances that could cause the character to wake up (-1 1/2 or so)? That's a fairly straightforward build that doesn't put non-sleepers to sleep, and isn't a really deep "knockout" sleep. If the character loses all his STUN in the attack, he goes to sleep. When he wakes up, he's at full STUN.

Many thanks! I like the idea except... It still connects STUN with sleep. And I'm not sure why it should.

 

Basically' date=' what we have here are poorly defined parameters for what "sleep" means. We're reasoning from a thousand different perceptions and interpretations of the effects, without having clearly defined the effects.[/quote']

That probably is a large part of the problem. Another is confusion as to game mechanics regarding sleep.

 

I'm thinking I probably need to just let this go. I don't think I'm convincing anyone and they're not convincing me. I'm more than happy to read what others have to say, but I'm probably done responding.

 

Thanks to all who chimed in.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

You're not going to believe this, but Lara Flynn Boyle just popped round. She's been lurking on this thread and she thought it might be fun to do some experiments to see if 'unconscious' and 'asleep' are the same thing.

 

Cool.

 

She's just snuggling down on the sofa now and...yes, she's snoring. I can dance around, I can take photos of her, I can whisper post hypnotic suggestions in her ear, but if I start to make too much noise, or use the flash, she begins to stir. Let's try an experiment...

 

Experiment:

 

I take a large glass of cold water and pour it over Lara's recumbent form. Whoa! Lara, steady girl!

 

Well, I can tell you that woke her up right quick.

 

Hand me your top, Lara, we'll have it dry in no time. Cool. Post hypnotic suggestions work!

 

OK, that was asleep. Lara was definitely not conscious, so I guess she was unconscious. But is it as simple as that?

 

For my second experiment I'm going to need a small leather bag filled with lead shot...

 

OK, Lara is now unconscious. It was a lot quicker than going to sleep, but she is snoring once more. OK, let's try our experiment again.

 

Nope, no effect. She didn't even stir. In fact even when I turned the hose on her, she didn't wake up.

 

So, what have we learned? Well, whilst you are clearly unconscious when you are asleep, you are not necessarily asleep when you are unconscious. We all knew that, but, hey, it was fun doing the experiment. The definer, to me, of sleep, is that it is something that you wake up from with a relatively low level of stimulus. The same cannot be said of this other form of unconsciousness, we can call it 'knocked out'. Really, look, I can subject Lara to all kinds of stimulii and she hardly moves at all.

 

So, a big hand for Lara Flynn Boyle, ladies and gentlemen.

 

Now, let me help you out of those wet things...