How do you put someone to sleep?

[Utech]

Short story version

Here's the question: Is it really the same thing to put someone to sleep as it is to drop their STUN to zero or below?

 

It may not be worth bothering about. If you're not interested, feel free to stop reading here.

 

Long story version

Recent discussion in another thread suggested a Stun-only EB with the SFX: Spell of Sleep. (A Sleep Spell on 5ER page 157 does the same sort of thing with Ego Attack; Sleep Poison Darts on 5ER page 297 use a NND EB.) I accepted this without a thought.

 

Then I got thinking.

 

Is knocking someone out really the same as putting them to sleep? Five points...

 

1. The Knockout rules on 5ER pages 411 and 412 are clear about what happens when your STUN total to zero or below.
   
2. 5ER page 373 (the DCV Modifiers Table) notes that sleeping people have the same DCV and Hit Locations modifiers as people who are knocked out (or affected by PRE/EGO +30 Presence Attack).
   
3. The Lightsleep Telent (5ER page 90) notes how one can make a PER Roll to wake up when someone enters the room -- clearly not something an unconscious person can do.
   
4. The Unconscious And Sleeping Minds rules under the Telepathy power (5ER page 232) make it clear that the two sorts of minds are not the same.
   
5. I've been asleep and I've been knocked out. I didn't enter the two conditions the same way. I didn't exit them the same way. They seemed different to me.
   

So here's the question again: Is it really the same thing to put someone to sleep as it is to drop their STUN to zero or below?

 

If no, is there a better way to build Powers that put someone to sleep?

[Comic]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Sleep is voluntary?

 

Of the many ways to knock someone out, some of them are like sleep-induction (for example sleeping drugs), but drugged sleep is more like being knocked out than like falling asleep.

 

I might allow a Change Environment to make people more susceptible to falling asleep, and I'd certainly allow mental powers to induce people to sleep willingly (mind control or mental illusions), but otherwise I'd go the PRE-based skill route.

 

You know, the one that goes, "Voulez-vous couchez avec moi?"

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Sleep

 

IMO, reducing someone 0 STUN is not the same as putting them to sleep (or having them fall asleep), although as a simple enough way to simulate something like it, it will generally do.

 

All basic template characters have a 'sleep' requirement, and, if they go without, will become tired and need EGO rolls with increasing penalties to stay awake. So you could wait them out.

 

Alternatively you can use something like PS Hypnosis to make a (reasonably willing) target fall asleep.

 

Apart from that you need a mind control (single command, sleep) and the level you need to acheive will depend on the circumstances. Making a bored guard fall asleep might only be EGO+10, making someone fall asleep in the middle of combat is going to be EGO+30. Trouble with that it sit is not 'proper' sleep - you only sleep whilst under the mind control, and probably can not wake until you break out, even in the presence of loud noise etc.

 

The other alternative, and, in some ways the best and worst, is our old friend transform: awake target to sleeping target. That is 'true sleep' i.e. you can use your lightsleep talent to wake up, you can stay sleeping for quite a while: effects wise this is the best option in many ways. Mechanically it is probably a bit difficult, but you pays your money, you takes your chance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Is knocking someone out really the same as putting them to sleep? Five points...

 

1. The Knockout rules on 5ER pages 411 and 412 are clear about what happens when your STUN total to zero or below.
   
2. 5ER page 373 (the DCV Modifiers Table) notes that sleeping people have the same DCV and Hit Locations modifiers as people who are knocked out (or affected by PRE/EGO +30 Presence Attack).
   
3. The Lightsleep Telent (5ER page 90) notes how one can make a PER Roll to wake up when someone enters the room -- clearly not something an unconscious person can do.
   
4. The Unconscious And Sleeping Minds rules under the Telepathy power (5ER page 232) make it clear that the two sorts of minds are not the same.
   
5. I've been asleep and I've been knocked out. I didn't enter the two conditions the same way. I didn't exit them the same way. They seemed different to me.
   

 

To the last point, how did it seem different during the period between entering and exiting the conditions? Is anaesthetic an attack, or an inducement of sleep?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

If no' date=' is there a better way to build Powers that put someone to sleep?[/quote']

 

I've always done a straight up sleep spell with Mind Control, Single Command: Go To Sleep. Has the advantage that characters who are more tired (i.e. "inclined to do it anyway") are easier to put to sleep than those who are actively opposed. You can twiddle it in all kinds of ways from there; the most obvious, and the simplest way to replicate D&D's sleep spell, would be to make it Area Of Effect and Based On CON.

[CTaylor]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I can see several different ways of doing this:

 

Mind control: sleep (difficult to awaken short term sleep)

Minor Transform: awake to asleep with variable result so that you're not turning them all into the same sleeping person (very long term, Snow White coma-style sleep)

Stun drain/energy blast, stun only: put someone into deeper sleep each application

Stun Suppress: put someone to sleep until you let them awaken

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I've always done a straight up sleep spell with Mind Control' date=' Single Command: Go To Sleep. Has the advantage that characters who are more tired (i.e. "inclined to do it anyway") are easier to put to sleep than those who are actively opposed. You can twiddle it in all kinds of ways from there; the most obvious, and the simplest way to replicate D&D's sleep spell, would be to make it Area Of Effect and Based On CON.[/quote']

 

I agre this probably ticks most of the boxes. The only problems to me are these (and you can usually solve them on a campaign by campaign basis):

 

A mind control stays in effect, so once asleep the MC keeps the target asleep until they break out (despite outside influences), and

 

If you are MC'd asleep there is nothing to KEEP you asleep once you have broken out.

 

If you hit someone with a sleep spell at 10pm then you might expect them to (assuming they have been up all day) STAY asleep until the morning. MC does not seem to do that without at least some handwaving, so, whilst I agree that this is probably MECHANICALLY the best way to do it, you either need a complex and expensive build to simulate actual sleep, or a GM who is willing to play it a little fast and loose.

[CTaylor]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Once asleep you'll tend to stay asleep unless something interferes, such as sufficient rest or distractions. If someone just woke up from a long, restful sleep, I would rule that they would wake up the instant the mind control wore off. If it's been a long day, I would rule that they'll stay asleep even after the mind control wears off, unless poked or a loud bang goes off, that kind of thing.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

By the letter of the rules, yeah, as soon as the Mind Control wore off they would wake up. I'd let the spirit of the power win, unless a player came to me and insisted on the letter of the rules.

[gojira]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Other things that might put someone to sleep (or at least in a stupor):

 

Entangle based on EGO.

 

INT Drain.

 

EGO Drain.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

To the last point' date=' how did it seem different during the period between entering and exiting the conditions? Is anaesthetic an attack, or an inducement of sleep?[/quote']

 

I'll leave anesthesia aside.

 

Entering sleep

First, I become sleepy. My eyes blink more. I yawn. My eye-lids can actually feel heavy. I lie down (if possible). I cease moving. My mind goes to this idea and that -- far less logical than when I'm feeling wakeful and alert. After some period of time (ranges from a few minutes to twenty), I cease to be aware of anything.

I first realize that I am sleeping when I start to dream.

 

Entering unconsciousness

I was perfectly awake. Thinking rapidly. Trying to avoid being hit. I made a choice. I ceased being aware of anything.

I had no sense of being unconscious when I was unconscious.

 

Exiting sleep

This can happen quite suddenly or slowly. I become aware of outside stimuli (or the physical need to, say, use the toilet) and note that I am at least somewhat awake. I make a conscious decision as to whether I will fully awake or if I will return to sleep. Once I decide to fully awaken, I stretch. I yawn. I stand up. I rub my eyes. My mind can be moving very rapidly or very slowly -- but I do not make my best decisions just after waking up. After some period of time (usually 10 to 30 minutes) I feel fully awake and alert.

 

Exiting unconsciousness

My eyes opened. I saw people above me. Heard and understood them. I was helped to my feet and asked if I was OK. I told them that I was. Physically I felt fine. That turned out to be shock. I easily walked and talked. I said that my foot hurt. I adjusted my hat and my glove came back bloody. I said that I had better get to the hospital.

At the hospital, the staff said it was important that I had been unconscious for some period of time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I agree this probably ticks most of the boxes. The only problems to me are these (and you can usually solve them on a campaign by campaign basis):

 

A mind control stays in effect, so once asleep the MC keeps the target asleep until they break out (despite outside influences), and

 

I'd suggest someone trying to wake you stimulates an additional breakout roll, much like the teammate's "You don't really want to do this - fight his control" tactic.

 

If you are MC'd asleep there is nothing to KEEP you asleep once you have broken out.

 

If you hit someone with a sleep spell at 10pm then you might expect them to (assuming they have been up all day) STAY asleep until the morning. MC does not seem to do that without at least some handwaving, so, whilst I agree that this is probably MECHANICALLY the best way to do it, you either need a complex and expensive build to simulate actual sleep, or a GM who is willing to play it a little fast and loose.

 

Well, once you ARE asleep, something needs to wake you up. If you're mind controlled to "Go to sleep", and you do, making the breakout roll means you're not compelled to go back to sleep, but you are already asleep.

 

If the Mind Control gets you to kill yourself, you don't make the breakout roll and wake up.

 

The issue I take with Mind Control is that people can't typically MAKE themselves go to sleep. Sometimes, people nod off without wishing to, and sometimes they lie awake and stare at the ceiling because they can't get to sleep.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Entering sleep

Entering unconsciousness

Exiting sleep

Exiting unconsciousness/QUOTE]

 

I didn't ask about the differences between getting and leaving the state of unconsciousness/sleep. I asked about the differences you alluded to BETWEEN entry and exit. ie what is the difference between BEING unconscious and BEING asleep?

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Entering sleep

Entering unconsciousness

Exiting sleep

Exiting unconsciousness/QUOTE]

 

I didn't ask about the differences between getting and leaving the state of unconsciousness/sleep. I asked about the differences you alluded to BETWEEN entry and exit. ie what is the difference between BEING unconscious and BEING asleep?

 

I'm afraid you misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote that entering and exiting sleep/unconsciousness seemed different to me. The allusion you cite doesn't exist.

 

That notwithstanding, I'd say the sharpest difference I experienced was in dreaming. I dream when I sleep. I didn't dream when unconscious. I'm hardly a perfect study, of course. I've only been knocked out once. I've been to sleep many times.

[Utech]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I'd say that Mind Control and Transform are the big winners so far by me.

 

They make a lot more sense to me than knocking someone out.

[tarragon]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I like Mind Control over Transform because of the levels of effect of Mind Control. It's only EGO +0 at the end of a long boring guard shift, but EGO +30 in the middle of a fight.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I'd suggest someone trying to wake you stimulates an additional breakout roll, much like the teammate's "You don't really want to do this - fight his control" tactic.

 

Well, once you ARE asleep, something needs to wake you up. If you're mind controlled to "Go to sleep", and you do, making the breakout roll means you're not compelled to go back to sleep, but you are already asleep.

 

Well, I'd rule that the Mind Control is only "Go to sleep," not "Go to sleep and stay asleep". So someone could wake you up (I'd say at no penalty), but until the Mind Control is broken you'd then potentially go back to sleep. Someone attempting to wake you could easily be worth an additional breakout roll, as you mention.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Simulate Death, UAA (sorry, had to say it)

 

I believe Ego Attack is used for several of the official writeups for this power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Well' date=' I'd rule that the Mind Control is only "Go to sleep," not "Go to sleep and stay asleep". So someone could wake you up (I'd say at no penalty), but until the Mind Control is broken you'd then potentially go back to sleep. Someone attempting to wake you could easily be worth an additional breakout roll, as you mention.[/quote']

 

"Go to sleep", even if I want to, isn't something I can necessarily do. I can lay down. I can shut the lights off, close my eyes and relax. But sometimes one cannot just "fall asleep". Transform seems a more reasonable approach than mind control for that reason.

 

Stun to KO works well enough. If the attack Stuns you, you momentarily nod off. KO means "asleep". The biggest problem is that many other attacks doing STUN, often at the same time, inflict pain, which is not really conducive to falling asleep.

[Mordax]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

I've generally used an END or END+STUN Drain for that sort of effect, because I liked the ability to tailor the duration of a given effect - plus, it wears off gradually. Seemed to me that the trouble with a STUN Only EB is that you either have to drop someone deep into the negatives, or they'd just take a few recoveries and be fine.

 

The Mind Control thing's really clever, though. While it's true people can't necessarily fall asleep on demand, Mind Control can make a person do other stuff they couldn't normally choose to do, (like, I'd argue that people can't generally choose who they fall in love with, but Mind Control can force that issue).

 

It's tempting to use them in combination for knockout drugs: someone short on END would be likelier to want to sleep, and it would represent a chemical haze even if they make the Breakout roll.

[Guest voodoo54]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Force them to watch anything on the Lifetime channel:doi:

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Generally I drone on and on about something really geeky like computers or gaming. That usually does the trick.

[Mordax]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Force them to watch anything on the Lifetime channel:doi:

 

Generally I drone on and on about something really geeky like computers or gaming. That usually does the trick.

 

Hmm...

Well, the Extra Time is a wash, of course.

 

As for the rest:

On the one hand, the Bulky, Fragile Focus (TV) is worth a higher Limitation than Incantations (Complex, Nerdy). But on the other, an attacker would probably need to buy an Entangle or Cover someone with an RKA to make them sit still long enough for it to work.

 

No, the point savings probably go to Killer Shrike, this round.

[Doc]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Entangle based on EGO.

 

 

Would that work? Would any GM here permit this?

 

Personally, I find this pretty interesting. It should have some advantage to prevent the target from being conscious of what's going on, though...

 

What do you think?

[Mordax]

Re: How do you put someone to sleep?

 

Would that work? Would any GM here permit this?

 

Personally, I find this pretty interesting. It should have some advantage to prevent the target from being conscious of what's going on, though...

 

What do you think?

I would probably shy away from that, since Entangle already has an established method of blocking access to senses that gets really, really expensive.

 

Here's another one, though:

Rather than Mind Control, what about Mental Illusions with Mandatory Effect: EGO+30? Once you hit that level, the person's completely out of touch with reality, has vivid dreamlike experiences, remains still, can be slapped out of it, etc.