[NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

[leifur]

Hi guys,

 

just tried out Hero System at GenCon and liked it a lot. I just got the sidekick and have run through and still like it a lot

 

I guess other source books will give you an idea how to run game in Hero System as I could not find f.x. how to measure the encounter heroes should face.

 

Take your typical d&d where a group of level 5 heroes 4 of them meet an encounter you know pretty much how to balance it.

 

Is there something similliar in Hero?

[Nolgroth]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Hi guys,

 

just tried out Hero System at GenCon and liked it a lot. I just got the sidekick and have run through and still like it a lot

Always nice to see a new face.

 

I guess other source books will give you an idea how to run game in Hero System as I could not find f.x. how to measure the encounter heroes should face.

There is not really not something like Challenge Rating in the HERO system. It is actually a little more hands on as you compare a whole slew of factors like Speed, Combat Value, Defenses and Damage Class. It is not really easy until you have done it a couple of times.

 

For example, I recently threw my PCs against what I thought were toned down opponents (about half the Combat Value and Speed of the PCs, 10 Body, No real defenses). Half of the party was taken out. A few lucky rolls on the bad guys' parts and it was over. So the balancing act is rather more fluid than D&D.

 

Some folks have worked out some sort of Threat Rating/Rule of X but I don't know who they are off the top.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

It's not a simple cut-and-dry comparison in Hero. You can compare total points, but a combat oriented character can defeat a scholarly character with ten times the character points.

 

The best thing to do is to compare the PCs' OCV with NPCs' DCV, and vice versa. For an even match, they should be about equal (duh). If the PCs are all fighting one big bad guy, his should be a point or two higher. If they're fighting mooks, the mooks should be two or more points lower.

 

Also compare the damage the characters can dish out with their enemies' defenses. For Killing Attacks, the defenses should be 2-3 times the number of dice. For Normal Attacks, defenses should be about equal to the number of dice, or a little lower.

 

Of course, this all gets thrown out of whack again if you want a bad guy who can take a lot of damage...obviously, you can't follow those guidelines above for someone who's supposed to be nigh invincible.

 

Ultimately, until you get enough experience to gauge these things pretty well on your own, the best thing to do is have battles involving mooks. If they get beat up too fast, reinforcements come. If they don't go down fast enough, an impressive damage roll and a PRE attack can make some of them run for the hills.

[badger3k]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Hi guys,

 

just tried out Hero System at GenCon and liked it a lot. I just got the sidekick and have run through and still like it a lot

 

I guess other source books will give you an idea how to run game in Hero System as I could not find f.x. how to measure the encounter heroes should face.

 

Take your typical d&d where a group of level 5 heroes 4 of them meet an encounter you know pretty much how to balance it.

 

Is there something similliar in Hero?

 

I second the "welcome aboard", and hope you enjoy the Hero System.

 

What type of game will you be running - fantasy, science fiction, superhero, pulp, etc? This can have an effect on the consideration. A super-powered campaign uses higher attacks and defenses, and if the villain defeats the party, they don't always have to die. A fantasy campaign can work the same, but the damage is usually more lethal so death is more often a result.

 

It does take some knowledge of the system, but the first rule of thumb is to look at the attacks and defenses of the opponents.

 

Consider average damage for an attack. A normal d6 average roll works out to 3.5. This would round to a 4 (I'd round up in this case), so for a normal attack it would be 4 Stun and 1 Body, and a killing attack would be 4 Body. Look at the defenses, and see how their attacks stack up against the defenses.

 

You also need to look at the OCV and DCV - a high OCV creature that does low damage can be as effective as a low-OCV-but-high-damage creature.

 

Look at the type of attacks as well as the type of defenses. If no one has armor or resistant defenses, a killing attack will be brutal. If everyone has low ED, then a fire creature with high attacks vs ED could likewise be brutal.

 

You also consider (in certain genres) what the characters (and the opponents) are also vulnerable to - sometimes having an enemy that targets a hero, or an enemy that is vulnerable to one hero, can be good (or bad, if things go that way).

 

It sounds like a lot to consider at once, but it does come to you. I'd start out easy and try a few encounters first, to get a feel to how the characters handle them. This can give you a better idea of what the characters are capable of. The very strength of the system, it's flexibility, can cause some problems for new GMs (and players, too!). Just stick with it and have fun. And don't forget to come here and ask for advice (or give some!).

 

Also, (shameless plug), when you get into the game more, consider the Hero Designer program - it's the best and easiest way to make characters, bases, vehicles, etc on your computer! Sorry, I bought it years ago and it's the best program for any system that I have found - I'm biased. (no, I didn't make it - can't program for squit, but it is good).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

I would note that any CR system fails if key assumptions fail. More flexibility = higher failure risk. d20, for example - if you lack appropriate gear for your level, it fails. If the characters happen to lack the abilities or gear needed to get past that Damage Reduction, issues arise.

 

I recall an issue raised in a Dungeon Mag some years back about a CR5 creature having extreme hp for an adversary to 5th level characters. The answer was "well, he's certain to be softened up with a Lightning Bolt or Fireball". Really? Every group has a Wizard (sorceror won't have a L3 spell at 5th level) and every wizard gets fireball or lightning bolt at 5th level? Mine doesn't - evocation is a prohibited school!

 

4ed is probably harder to break since there's less ability to vary characters, but it will break if your party mix doesn't conform to the guidelines.

 

Hero is vastly more flexible, making the balance vastly more difficult to achieve through simplistic formuli.

[mikesama]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

I second Badger's statement, start out low and work up, an easy fight or two at the beginning of a campaign is perfectly good and will give you some time to get into the swing of running combat in Hero.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

There is no such thing per se. However, this document might help you translate your D&D experience into the HERO System: Opposition Comparison

[badger3k]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

I would note that the Hero CR system fails...

 

Do you mean D&D, or did they do something to Hero in sidekick I'm not aware of?

[Sean Waters]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Hello liefur. Welcome.

 

I'm late tot he show so you've probably got it all figured by now, but what I'd suggest is a process of trial and error - don't dive straight into a viallain team battle.

 

Start off with encounters against a group of agent level characters - those you expect the players to beat handily - it will be good practice for you and them AND it will get you familiar with the rules without getting anyone killed (hopefully).

 

Then introduce encounters with more potent opponents, until you feel the mix is right. If you look like you've gone over theh top or the PCs are having a run of really bad luck, try to line up a Deus Ex Machina - unexpected help in the form of allies, or an unexpected problem for the baddies (one of their hunteds shows up, perhaps - check their disadvantages). I almost always build villain types with some unluck because it is an excellent way to justifiy this sort of thing.

 

There is no easy way to balance encounters in Hero, except, perhaps, the easiest of all - the Eyeball. Generally if there is more than a 2 point difference in Combat Value, one side will wipe the floor with the other. If the DC of attacks is capable of regularly stunning opponents, then luck will play a large factor. If defences are too high then you'll be there all night...

 

Have fun

[Utech]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

I'd go so far as to suggest the first encounter should be against a group of wholly normal bad guys. Thugs trying to hold up an old lady or something along those lines.

 

The heroes should have absolutely no trouble wiping the floor with them. The heroes will be much faster and will probably have to pull their attacks quite a bit to avoid a great many broken bones. This lets your heroes know just how tough they are against normal people.

 

Then you might want to ease up the danger level. Give the bad guys some body armor and weapons. Make one or more of them trained in martial arts. Perhaps one of them is built on just as many points as the heroes. This encounter gives them a good feel for how things change when the threat level goes up.

 

Keep going...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Do you mean D&D' date=' or did they do something to Hero in sidekick I'm not aware of?[/quote']

 

Edited - thanks

[Dr Divago]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Hi guys,

 

just tried out Hero System at GenCon and liked it a lot. I just got the sidekick and have run through and still like it a lot

Wellcome!

you did first step in a better world

I guess other source books will give you an idea how to run game in Hero System as I could not find f.x. how to measure the encounter heroes should face.

i posed this question long time ago

the simple answer is: there is no CR system

 

the complex answer is: CR is not reliable; i put some dragons vs players and they whewre trashed; i put same CR NPC and they trashed'em easily... with different player/characther i got the viceversa

 

in Hero, like most games, there is'nt a simple way to say "this is a simple encounter" "this is an hard encounter" "this is a fair encounter"; mostly you need to compare enemies ocv with player dcv; enemies damage with player's armor; enemies armor with player's damage.

 

and then, at start you can get better knowledge of game, so some goblin can trash a good starting parties. When they learn the game, they can easily trash a good enemy party just 'cause they got more mind thinking on tactics

 

my advice is: start with simple enemies; simple encounter; better is face'em with low lvl mob, then increase the "power point" of enemy mobs: so you can understand what they can trash and what they can hardly fight

 

just my two cent

 

ps: i did some great error last session: they faced a werewolfes i was sure could be easy fight, and where very close to die; then a wight i thought was too tough, and they killed'him in few rounds... >_<

[CTaylor]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

I guess other source books will give you an idea how to run game in Hero System as I could not find f.x. how to measure the encounter heroes should face.

 

This takes experience and some thought to get good at for several reasons.

 

Unlike D&D, the classes are not set and the monsters are not set. You don't get a book that says Rangers are x, y, and z while a Goblin is a, b, and c. You get a book that says: make anything you want, and here are some examples. Thus, setting absolute rules or systems on how to balance an encounter doesn't work well. You have to try a few to get used to what the party can handle and what their gear will let them do, what their mix of abilities will accomplish, and how. Since there's no official Monster Manual (although you can buy one of the various monster books Hero puts out and use them), your goblin might have different abilities than another version.

 

In general, here's how I do it: take the average points of the party, that's your base whatever they're built on, total including disadvantages). Add 50 points for each additional member of the party past 1 (so if there are 4, add 150). That's enough points in a single creature to give the party a good challenge on average although it varies a lot by the creature and what it is built like.

 

If you throw monsters at the party equal to them, roughly the same point value will give each character a good fight and the party as a whole a good fight.

 

Keep in mind, the party acts kind of like a single creature, a hive mind against you. As the GM you're outclassed, you have to keep track of each creature and react for them, the party has a brain for each character. So if you throw a crowd of monsters at the party, even though they are built with almost (or no) non-combat abilities - no one cares if an orc knows how to knit or speaks latin - they still will usually lose to the party because of this effect.

[leifur]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Thanks a lot guys for all your feedbacks. This explained it basicly to me and I can see the reasons why.

 

I am going over the books now, gotten my self 4-5 books to get the feel of it. The Fantasy Hero and its 2 grimores and monster as well as the full Hero System.

 

Will try out a session in Fantasy theeme as I am from d20 and I really dont see a reason why not to run a Hero game in a d20 world - sounds exciting to me.

 

I guess I will try and give my players a pre-made character as an intro.

 

Anyways, thanks a lot!

[Sean Waters]

Re: [NEWBIE] How to decide encounter power

 

Excellent news

 

Let us know how it goes, and if you have any questions or problems, don't hesitate to ask.