Big Name Supers or equal characters?

[sindyr]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

For a completely different approach to this effect, I want to direct you to a fan-created mechanic for a pulp-era campaign. It's called "Action Points!" (author's exclamation point, not mine) , and involves expending points from a finite reserve in order to achieve automatic successes. The guidelines for what the points can be used for, when they can be used, and how they're recovered build game-balance into the mechanic.

 

You can read it on the "Thrilling True Tales!" campaign website, on this webpage.

 

Action Points sound very cool, very similar to the Possibility points used in my favorite RPG Torg. It's going into my toolkit for possible future use.

 

Thanks.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

Interesting. This yields to different approaches: An advantage that you apply to each power you want to be able to have infallible aim for, or a Power (via an Absolute Ability) that doesn't make your other powers cost more, but grants a global character ability that if you can reach the target, you can hit it.

 

This also makes me think I am on the right track, because it feels right (to me) to be able to take either the advantage per power option or the global straight point cost option.

 

Cool. Thanks!

 

If you want all of a character's attacks (at least within a related group) to have a particular Advantage -- in this case, Infallible Aim -- you can use the rules for Naked Advantages. Take the Active Points of the largest Power you want the Advantage to apply to, including any other Advantages it may have, and use that as the Base Points to calculate the cost of giving the desired Advantage to it. The resulting Naked Advantage can be used with any of that group of Powers, subject to the other rules for Naked Advantages.

 

Published examples for such constructs include Autofire for All Guns to represent skill at shooting more than one gun, or quickly squeezing off rounds; or Reduced Endurance through a Focus, representing a worn device that makes an energy-projector's blasts more efficient.

[sindyr]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

If you want all of a character's attacks (at least within a related group) to have a particular Advantage -- in this case, Infallible Aim -- you can use the rules for Naked Advantages. Take the Active Points of the largest Power you want the Advantage to apply to, including any other Advantages it may have, and use that as the Base Points to calculate the cost of giving the desired Advantage to it. The resulting Naked Advantage can be used with any of that group of Powers, subject to the other rules for Naked Advantages.

 

Published examples for such constructs include Autofire for All Guns to represent skill at shooting more than one gun, or quickly squeezing off rounds; or Reduced Endurance through a Focus, representing a worn device that makes an energy-projector's blasts more efficient.

 

My mind always shut down when trying to grasp naked Advantages - were those in Fourth? Going back to reread the 5th Ed section on them...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

EDIT: PS, I think Stephen R Donaldson is perhaps one of the greatest writers ever, with his Thomas Covenant series' being in my mind the greatest fantasy ever, and his Gap series the greatest Sci-Fi ever. IMO.

 

Well then sir, I believe that you have good taste in literature that mirror's my own.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

Found it, very interesting. It feels like we are one the same page point wise. You have basically created a power that prevents all body damage:

 

 

So it doesn't protect from stun, it does permit the character to have protection from stun, it does not protect versus side effects - it a very limited form of what I was first looking for.

 

If we use the 50 point method I devised above, we could run it like this:

 

Absolute Ability(Inviolability): Only vs Body, strictly +1/4. Limitations: Cannot have defense against stun (-1/4), Only versus Physical, not Energy (-1/2).

50 x 1.25 = 62.5, 62.5 / 1.75 = 36.

 

So the Absolute Ability Metapower that I am playing aruond with may actually include your Invulnerability as a sub set.

 

To me, that's a sign I may be on the right track.

I'm glad you found it useful, but it is IMO a very bad idea to make a character invulnerable to ANY form of damage - It will make the character badly unbalanced with other characters. There's a good reason I had my version of Invulnerability protect only from BODY damage and not from Stun. If you think about it, not even Superman is truly invulnerable.

[Clonus]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

 

• He is generally invulnerable to everything except kryptonite and magic.
  

.

 

No, he isn't, although someone has to be as strong as he is to hurt him.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

As a respondent to "how to" questions on HERO System, I try to help a fellow gamer get where he wants to go, even if I personally wouldn't go there myself. After he's been warned of the potential pitfalls, of course.

[sindyr]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

OK, I have spent the last five hours thinking and writing and have come up with this:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1678490#post1678490

 

In it I explore precisely how Absolute Abilities can work, are priced, and interact.

 

By the way, one Absolute Ability *can* trump another, so no one is *truly* invulnerable - just invulnerable to those without the right Absolute Ability.

 

I would be honored if the good people helping me on this thread would check out what I have posted at the link above, digest it, and help me to better shape it into a working system.

 

Thanks.

[Marcus]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

What works best for me is to control scale and focus.

 

As an illustration:

If Jimbob Supervillian is built on 250 points, and has at best a 10 dice attack... then a 600+ point, 100 Stun, 45 PD 'Superman' is for all intents and purposes invulnerable. Sure, he MIGHT get some stun in, on a really good roll, but he wont seriously inconvenience Supes.

 

The trick is, if you want your PLAYERS to feel like their playing the Justice League, you have to scale the world such that they ARE the Justice League. They have to be more powerful/flexible/effecacious than the vast, vast majority of supervillians and superheros, and they have to see/feel that, not just be told that 'Your 700 points, most supers are 250 points... but oddly enough, every John Q Random No-Name Villian you fight is your equal'

 

Let them be super, really, really super. Figure out what their 'shtick' is and feature it, highlight it. Let -one- of them show up to save an entire -superteam- of 'normal powered' heros, and have them go 'golly-gee wonderfulman, thanks!' after your JLer spends a few phases solving a problem that would have taken the 'normal' superteam hours of blood, sweat, toil, and tears.

 

Once youve established, for them, that they are all of that and a bag of chips, start ramping it up... but make sure their opposition FEELS cosmic enough to face them. They dont want to fight to a draw witih someone they never heard of before... build the bad guys up, in their minds, before they even face them.. show the baddies doing amazing things, to other heros, other villians, the environment, etc. That way your Justice Leaguers -know- that these guys are worthy opponents, so they dont feel cheapened when the fight is a real one.

 

No matter what points you put on a sheet, no matter how absolute the powers you give them, if you dont supply the STORY to their opposition to make them seem like worthy foes (whatever the points), the players wont feel like the Justice League, only like the Just-Us League.

[assault]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

The trick is' date=' if you want your PLAYERS to feel like their playing the Justice League, you have to scale the world such that they ARE the Justice League. They have to be more powerful/flexible/effecacious than the vast, vast majority of supervillians and superheros,[/quote']

 

The easiest way to do this is for them to be the only superheroes, or as near as makes no difference.

 

After that, you are comparing their power level with normal humans. It's easy to look tough in comparison to norms.

 

They dont want to fight to a draw witih someone they never heard of before... build the bad guys up, in their minds, before they even face them..

 

Yes and no. While this may be a good idea in a game, it's not how the source material works.

[assault]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

• He is generally invulnerable to everything except kryptonite and magic. That's not a reduction in incoming damage, but an ignoring of it.

 

Easy. What is the biggest attack he has been hit by?

 

• He has a lesser version of the Flash's superspeed, able to react superquickly and get large tasks done in the blink of an eye.
  
• Likewise he has superfast "faster-than-the-eye-can-see" movement in whatever medium he is in.
  
• X-Ray vision
  
• Laser eyes
  
• Super Breath
  
• Extraordinary Super Strength
  
• Super Hearing
  
• Super Leaping
  

How can one build such a player character on starting points?

 

Easily?

 

Actually, the real issue here is that you are trying to build an "experienced" character on starting points. It's quite easy to build a first season Smallville version of Clark on starting points. He gets more complicated later on, which, conveniently corresponds to when he would have more experience in a game.

 

Likewise for most comics characters. You can build an early Green Lantern on starting points - you can't build a "fifty years later" version on the same points.

 

As far as "invulnerability" goes: a character is invulnerable if they are invulnerable to any attack they actually face.

 

A GM always has the option of hitting them with something they can't handle. There is no defence against that. The GM is all-powerful, if he or she wants to be.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

By the way' date=' one Absolute Ability *can* trump another, so no one is *truly* invulnerable - just invulnerable to those without the right Absolute Ability.[/quote']Then all you've done is make it so characters without Absolute Abilities are utterly non-competitive against those who do. In essence all you've done is create a new "level" of character as far above "regular" heroes as those heroes are above the archtypical man on the street. Congratulations; 99.9% of characters in play just became useless.

[jtelson]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

Then all you've done is make it so characters without Absolute Abilities are utterly non-competitive against those who do. In essence all you've done is create a new "level" of character as far above "regular" heroes as those heroes are above the archtypical man on the street. Congratulations; 99.9% of characters in play just became useless.

 

It's Palladium's Mega-Scale; All PC's will end up w/ absolute abilities particularly since it seems likely that villians will have them.

 

Invulnerability can be crammed into the system (Desol) and there's an easy overriding mechanic (+1/2 adv), so a player can take that now it's just expensive; most other absolutes get a bit silly. How many fictional character ever not miss? Ever always dodge? Even "The Man who never Missed" doctored his records.

 

As I said in the other thread if I needed absolutes, and had to use Hero (Rather than GURPs, or White Wolf) I'd go with a % of points system.

x% = an Absolute Ability: That % needs to be maintained w/ XP. Keeps it fair for players not having absolutes.

[Marcus]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

The easiest way to do this is for them to be the only superheroes, or as near as makes no difference.

 

After that, you are comparing their power level with normal humans. It's easy to look tough in comparison to norms.

 

 

 

Yes and no. While this may be a good idea in a game, it's not how the source material works.

 

Oh, I'm well aware of the source materials tendency to introduce 'scary new bad guy of the week who is utterly overpowered in their first appearance but will be a nobody in the rogues gallery in a few years'. Its so pathetically overused that hereabouts we've a standing '+20 Active Points on all powers, its his first appearance' joke.

 

That can work in gaming if you do it occasionally, and the 'new' baddies turn into recurring worthy foes. But when the game is a never-ending cycle of brand-spanking-new never-before-heard-of baddies who are, usually, better than the heros at EVERYTHING and loose only because of their cackling villain stupidity, you don't spend long feeling like your 'Super'.

 

Scale and focus... scale and focus...

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters?

 

 

I appreciate the idea of setting a setting practical absolutes for our campaign, ceilings which if you buy the defense up to, you have practical invulnerability. However, I have to admit to feeling like that too is a little kludgey - that to make one person invulnerable, you have to amend all the other people in the world.

 

First, some philosophy. Say that you price "Invulnerability" at some fixed number of points. Let's say 320 points just for the sake of argument. Now, in a 350-point superhero game, somebody just paid nearly all their points to be invulnerable to ~12 DC attacks, on average. But in a 700-point game, for the same 320 points, they're immune to ~18 DC attacks. This just doesn't work - they're getting different abilities for the same point cost.

 

This is why "absolute" effects have to be priced relative to the game, not at fixed points.

 

 

 

absolutely invulnerable to Fire

 

This is easy. Desolidification, Only vs. Fire. Per the rules, he doesn't need to cough up for Affects Real World. He can still be affected with Affects Desolid attacks, which is how someone with "Fire that always hurts everyone, no matter what" is built with.

 

anywhere he can think of, he can teleport. He can teleport safely, even if he has never been there before. And he can teleport there regardless of barriers.

 

This is just a teleport with some advantages, plus a few CSLs. Here's the "all the bells and whistles" version of the power.

 

Teleport 63", x16 Noncombat Movement, No Relative Velocity - Safe Blind Teleport, Armor Piercing x4 (+2), No Range Modifier

 

Naked Power Advantage: Apply Megascale (100 Million Light Years per 1", Scalable; +5 3/4) to Teleport

 

Enough 2-point CSLs with Teleport to give base OCV of 14 or higher with Teleport.

 

Voila. A character with these powers can teleport to any location in the universe instantly and without failing.

 

Now, about the "can teleport there regardless of barriers." What happens when he meets someone who can "stop anyone from entering an area?" IE has the opposite absolute power?

 

The way HERO resolves this is stacking opposed advantages to determine "whose absolute is more absolute." You can't buy a truly absolute power because of contradictions like this: if you have an unstoppable force, there is no immovable object, and vice versa, so instead you use this mechanic to figure out who's more unstoppable/immovable. In this case, it's Armor Piercing levels on teleport vs. Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation/Hardened on stuff like Force Wall and Entangle. I built it with 4 levels, so someone needs x5 Hardened/CBEWT to beat him.