Fastball

[Michael Hopcroft]

I seem to recall an old thread I satrted (but can;t find now) about how to model a character whose main superpower is a 1400 MPH fastball, turning an ordinary baseball into a projectile capable of blasting through brick walls, steel plate and people in power armor.

 

I'd like to see how the attack would be written up so that I can write up this character and submit it. other than his pitching ability, he's mainly a skill-based villain who is essentially a "free agent" killer for hire.

 

How muich damage would a 1400 MPH fastball do? If it missed, would it do the same damage to whatever it did hit (It's got to hit SOMETHING)? Can it be Missile Deflected like a bullet? is it an EB or a RKA? To be useful in combatm woudl fastabll have to develop some other "pitches"? Most importantly -- can a baseball survive being thrown at that speed?

[Zed-F]

Re: Fastball

 

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

How muich damage would a 1400 MPH fastball do? If it missed, would it do the same damage to whatever it did hit (It's got to hit SOMETHING)? Can it be Missile Deflected like a bullet? is it an EB or a RKA? To be useful in combatm woudl fastabll have to develop some other "pitches"? Most importantly -- can a baseball survive being thrown at that speed?

 

Say a normal fastball goes about 75mph and does about 2d6-4d6 normal damage when it hits. After all, most normals with a PD of 2 are going to take some STUN damage (bruises), may get knocked out if hit in the head, and if they are unlucky suffer a broken bone. One way to find out how much a 1400 MPH fastball would be to use the doubling rule (e.g. lift STR doubles for each +5 STR) and say each doubling of velocity is +1D6 of damage. So, by that logic, a 1200 MPH fastball would be 75x2x2x2x2, so 6d6 to 8d6 damage -- probably normal damage, since baseballs aren't sharp. That damage would also be applied as a move-through on the fastball, so assuming it was a normal baseball it would probably be toast. Your ball player could probably take a ranged martial art to represent his accuracy with throwing the ball as well, though the maneuvers would probably focus more on +OCV than on +DCV, and you might want to add an advantage to make it boostable by STR.

 

Alternatively you could look at the STR chart and see what STR you'd need to throw a ball at that speed (translate 1400 MPH to a number of hexes per phase, and find out how much STR is needed to throw an object that takes -25 STR to lift that far) and then use that STR level as the basis for the number of dice in the attack. I'd still call it normal damage that would destroy a normal baseball, though.

[DoctorItron]

I have no idea if a baseball disintegrates at 1400 mph. However, even if it could survive the throw, it might disintegrate when hitting a tough superhero, and therefore not do much damage. I suggest that your villain sounds more plausible if he carries modified baseballs that are solid enough to deal superheroic damage.

 

As for the damage, pick whatever is appropriate for the campaign. If he's a minor villainous agent, then an 8d6 EB might be right. If he's an elite hitman, then a 4d6 RKA might be better.

 

The fastball villain could have the following attacks:

1) Fastball: RKA vs. PD.

2) Changeup: Energy Blast vs. PD.

3) Beanball: NND. Defense is a helmet or other hard head covering.

4) Curveball: Energy Blast with Indirect advantage.

5) Missile Deflection: He tosses a ball to intercept attacks.

 

All of the above could possibly be done with regular baseballs. If you want to make Fastball more of a gadgeteer, additional attacks such as explosions, flashes, gas attacks, etc. become possible.

[Arthur]

If you want to match up with the way guns work (or used to under 4E), each +1 DC represents a doubling of kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity.

 

 

Using the previously given figure of 75 MPH for a typical fastball, 1400^2 / 75^2 = 358. So this super-fastball has roughly 360 times the KE of a regular one. That works out to +8 to +9 DC. Since there is so much wiggle room here, I'd just call it 12d N. Sounds about right.

 

And it had better be one tough baseball to avoid being destroyed on impact. It would also heat up a lot from air friction. Never calculated the melting point of a baseball before....

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Arthur

Since there is so much wiggle room here, I'd just call it 12d N. Sounds about right.

12d6 sounds fair enough to me. 8d6 was just way too low.

 

Presumably, the character can throw things other than baseballs? Otherwise, you'll have ammo problems. Though this could be a case for that rare 'charges/costs endurance' combo.

[BNakagawa]

FWIW, A really good major league fastball tops out around 100 mph. Perhaps the radar guns are running a little hot, but even so, you're looking high 90's easy.

 

Given that people have been knocked out of the game for months at a time as a result of being plonked by fastballs, I think the estimate of 2-4 dc is a little low. Players wouldn't need batting helmets if a fastball only did 2-4 dice, would they? I don't think catchers wear all that protective gear to shield themselves from 2-4 dc.

 

$0.02

[Michael Hopcroft]

A little historical perspective

 

In 1920, Cleveland Indians shortstop Ray Chapman was hit in the head and KILLED by a fastball thrown by New York Yankees pitcher Carl May.

 

This was in the days when batters wore no protection at all and is the only time there has ever been a fatality during play in major league baseball history.

 

It was not until the 1960's that the plastic batting helmet was developed.

 

May's fastball couldn;t have gone more than 95 MPH. Of course, they didn;t have radar guns in 1920 so there was no way to tell just how fast or hard that pitch was. Fastball's pitches would be about 14-15 times faster and harder than the pitch that killed Chapman. And Fastball WANTS to kill you....

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

FWIW, A really good major league fastball tops out around 100 mph. Perhaps the radar guns are running a little hot, but even so, you're looking high 90's easy.

 

Given that people have been knocked out of the game for months at a time as a result of being plonked by fastballs, I think the estimate of 2-4 dc is a little low. Players wouldn't need batting helmets if a fastball only did 2-4 dice, would they? I don't think catchers wear all that protective gear to shield themselves from 2-4 dc.

 

$0.02

 

2d6 is way too low. 4d6 might be okay.

 

Normals have 8 BODY, 2 PD. Since most baseball players are in good shape, let's say they have 10 BODY. A 4d6 fastball averages 4 BODY, enough to do 2 BODY everytime it hits the catcher, so you can bet he'd be wearing protective gear!

 

4d6 maxes out at 8 BODY. Double that for getting hit in the head and you've got 16 BODY. That's going to put someone in the hospital a long time if they don't have protective gear.

[tmutant]

Originally posted by DoctorItron

I have no idea if a baseball disintegrates at 1400 mph. However, even if it could survive the throw, it might disintegrate when hitting a tough superhero, and therefore not do much damage.

 

Doesn't matter. The ball won't disappear. It's mass and matter will still exist, moving at 1400 mph, in contact with the target body, and transfer kinetic energy to the target. The ball disintegrating won't use up too much energy, so it has to go somewhere, i.e. into the target. Still, a solid Unobtainium ball that weighs the same as a baseball, but is indestructable will be able to punch through the first guy and hit the guy behind him. Very useful.

 

In other words, it would turn into a killing attack. Just cause cannon balls are round doesn't mean they aren't killing attacks.

[Michael Hopcroft]

I never realized

 

That the Missile Deflection power (hitting a very hard pitch and sending it in a direction the pitcher did not intend) was the most important skill in baseball....

 

Assuming that all baseballpkayers aren't supers (although supers playing baseball among themelves could be interesting), are they all issues Midsile Deflection OAF baseball bats, Fragile (bats break all the time), Easily Replacamble (there's a whole rack of bats the player can use if one breaks) -2 Limitation; only vs. baseballs? Since the bat could in theory alsot be used as a melee weapon as well (although if you tried it you could forget about the rest of the seasob) or even a missile weapon (if you throw it at somebody) maybe it has a Multipower....

 

But we're getting off the suibject. Back to Fastball. what other physical characteristics would he require to have the 1400 MPH Fastball make sense? Some suggested that he may not be excessively super-strong, but have truly mastered the art of pitching at extrame speeds which would require superhuman reflexes. He would need a very high DEX for the CV to place the ball accurately (do you have any idea how hard it is to hit the strike zone from 60'6" away?) and a high END to withstand the strain of throwing as many pitches as he would throw in a typical combat.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by DoctorItron

2d6 is way too low. 4d6 might be okay.

 

Normals have 8 BODY, 2 PD. Since most baseball players are in good shape, let's say they have 10 BODY. A 4d6 fastball averages 4 BODY, enough to do 2 BODY everytime it hits the catcher, so you can bet he'd be wearing protective gear!

 

4d6 maxes out at 8 BODY. Double that for getting hit in the head and you've got 16 BODY. That's going to put someone in the hospital a long time if they don't have protective gear.

 

You're assuming baseball players have 2 PD and 10 BODY?

 

I can't find a player at the major league level who I would categorize as 2pd, 10 body.

 

Maybe the little league world series, where some of the players are bigger than me, and some of them aren't. (what are they feeding the kids these days?)

[BNakagawa]

Levels, levels, levels.

 

One thing about throwing a baseball. It's surface is irregular. It generates more or less turbulence depending on how it's gripped and released, hence the difference between a fastball (which goes pretty much in a ballistic arc) and a breaking ball (which doesn't)

 

Throwing a ball faster is going to generate more air friction and hence, more potential break on the ball. Without phenomenal control over the rate and direction of spin, there is literally no way such a pitcher could control where a ball would end up.

 

My advice, lower Dex, metric assload of levels. PSLs vs range mods, PSLs vs hit location penalties, etc. etc. etc.

[Zed-F]

Well they are in good shape, which might mean they have 13-15 STR and 3 PD. I doubt any more than that on average, though there will of course be exceptions. I'd still say 10 BODY, ball players aren't really any harder to kill with a bullet than anyone else.

 

Hero distinguishes killing vs. non-killing physical attacks based mostly on whether it's with a blunt or sharp instrument. Someone who can lift a semi can probably do a killing attack with his fists too, but in Hero it's still a normal damage attack. Moreover, Rubber-boy with non-resistant physical damage reduction ought to be able to absorb the KE of the baseball, so it works within the game construct as well. A 1400MPH baseball doing 10-12d6 Normal damage seems reasonable to me.

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

You're assuming baseball players have 2 PD and 10 BODY?

 

I can't find a player at the major league level who I would categorize as 2pd, 10 body.

 

Maybe the little league world series, where some of the players are bigger than me, and some of them aren't. (what are they feeding the kids these days?)

 

I could see going to 3 PD. Higher than that doesn't make sense for the typical baseball player - they don't specifically train to absorb damage. Boxers and football(American) players would have better PD.

 

10 BODY is substantial. The average person starts at 8.

 

What PD and BODY do you think a professional baseball player should have?

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by DoctorItron

I could see going to 3 PD. Higher than that doesn't make sense for the typical baseball player - they don't specifically train to absorb damage. Boxers and football(American) players would have better PD.

 

10 BODY is substantial. The average person starts at 8.

 

What PD and BODY do you think a professional baseball player should have?

 

PD: Certainly baseball isn't as contact intensive as football or boxing, but it should be pointed out that a significant number of baseball players played football in either high school or college. Point 2: Catchers. Point 3. Sliding. You won't last long in this game with a 2 PD. They tend to run faster than average normals and sliding will do more damage the faster you go. Point 4: you can't be afraid of the ball. Everyone in the major leagues will have been hit with countless pitched and batted balls by the time they make the show. If you're going on the DL with broken bones every other game, your career is over before it begins. The minor leagues would be a death sentence if they all had 2 pds.

 

BODY: Hero says 30 Body is human maximum, I say 20 is about the tops you're going to find in the general population. Either way, Baseball players are going to be a lot closer to 20 than 10.

 

You can interpret BODY in a number of ways. Is it sheer body mass? Baseball players tend to be larger than average people. Certainly not to the extent that football players are, but still quite largish. I remember when middle infielders used to be smaller than the average man, but that was quite some time ago.

 

Is BODY a measurement of overall health? Ballplayers tend to be a lot healthier than the general population. Certainly, there are exceptions, but the average MLB player is a cut above the average man. An average man probably couldn't make it through a full 162 game season, especially if they play in the midwest or south in an outdoor field. (thankfully rare these days)

 

Is BODY related to willpower? Surely, even some small people have an immense will to live, completely out of proportion to their size and/or health. Again, your average MLB player has an above average will, just about any way you want to measure it. Chances are, they wouldn't have gotten to the big leagues without it.

 

These are the only measurements we can reliably use. We don't have a good way of quantifying how many bullets you can pump into a person before they die. (not with any amount of clinical precision, anyway)

 

I look at things in this way: What percentage of the general population would you categorize as having a higher BODY rating than the average MLB ballplayer? Of all the people I've personally met, I've met maybe five that I might put in that category. So, the way I look at it, the average MLB ballplayer is going to have a BODY rating in the 75-90 percentile range. If you're using the human max of 30, then ballplayers should be seeing body stats up to 25. If you're using 20, then maybe topping out at 18 would do.

 

$0.02 and a handfull of sunflower seeds.

[megaplayboy]

well, 1400 MPH is about as fast as the average bullet, but a baseball is a lot larger than a bullet. I think that 12d6 normal works pretty well--this will flat out kill norms, seriously injure agents, and flatten low level supers. 4d6 Ka, if the ball is solid and inelastic.

 

PS: at 1% of light speed the ball will do about 36d6:D

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

PD: Certainly baseball isn't as contact intensive as football or boxing, but it should be pointed out that a significant number of baseball players played football in either high school or college. Point 2: Catchers. Point 3. Sliding. You won't last long in this game with a 2 PD. They tend to run faster than average normals and sliding will do more damage the faster you go. Point 4: you can't be afraid of the ball. Everyone in the major leagues will have been hit with countless pitched and batted balls by the time they make the show. If you're going on the DL with broken bones every other game, your career is over before it begins. The minor leagues would be a death sentence if they all had 2 pds.

 

Death sentence??? Catchers wear protective gear to augment their PD. Players slide onto a smooth infield that isn't supposed to have rocks, not broken glass.

 

In the Hero System, STUN damage completely heals in minutes (unless you're knocked into GM's discretion la-la land). BODY takes days to heal. To me, this means that BODY damage isn't just broken bones. Sprains, strains, scrapes, cuts, bruises can all mean BODY damage.

 

If a batter gets hit by a pitch, it's not unreasonable that they'll be hurt the next day. Not in a coma, no broken bones, still able to play baseball ... but they have a bruise and ache where they were hit. Taking 1 or 2 BODY doesn't mean they'd be on the disabled list. Professional athletes often play with minor injuries.

 

If batters had enough PD to take pitches without getting injured, they wouldn't need helmets, and they wouldn't charge the mound when the pitcher threw at them.

 

BODY: Hero says 30 Body is human maximum, I say 20 is about the tops you're going to find in the general population. Either way, Baseball players are going to be a lot closer to 20 than 10.

 

You can interpret BODY in a number of ways. Is it sheer body mass? Baseball players tend to be larger than average people. Certainly not to the extent that football players are, but still quite largish. I remember when middle infielders used to be smaller than the average man, but that was quite some time ago.

 

Is BODY a measurement of overall health? Ballplayers tend to be a lot healthier than the general population. Certainly, there are exceptions, but the average MLB player is a cut above the average man. An average man probably couldn't make it through a full 162 game season, especially if they play in the midwest or south in an outdoor field. (thankfully rare these days)

 

Is BODY related to willpower? Surely, even some small people have an immense will to live, completely out of proportion to their size and/or health. Again, your average MLB player has an above average will, just about any way you want to measure it. Chances are, they wouldn't have gotten to the big leagues without it.

 

These are the only measurements we can reliably use. We don't have a good way of quantifying how many bullets you can pump into a person before they die. (not with any amount of clinical precision, anyway)

 

I look at things in this way: What percentage of the general population would you categorize as having a higher BODY rating than the average MLB ballplayer? Of all the people I've personally met, I've met maybe five that I might put in that category. So, the way I look at it, the average MLB ballplayer is going to have a BODY rating in the 75-90 percentile range. If you're using the human max of 30, then ballplayers should be seeing body stats up to 25. If you're using 20, then maybe topping out at 18 would do.

 

$0.02 and a handfull of sunflower seeds.

 

By the Hero System rules, isn't BODY used primarily for the amount of physical damage that can be done before someone dies? Overall health is primarily CON and maybe REC. Willpower is EGO.

 

25 BODY Remember, the context of the original question is within the realm of a superhero game. That's not a typical baseball player, that's a character from an action movie. With 25 BODY:

 

1) Doctor Destroyer would have to roll exceptionally well to kill a baseball player in one shot.

 

2) I think a tank gun does something like 6d6 RKA. Average of 21 damage, maximum of 36. The baseball player can get shot by the main gun of a tank and still have positive BODY most of the time. Might not even need medical attention. Even on a perfect roll of 36 BODY, the baseball player would be at -11 BODY. A good doctor could save him.

 

3) Grond would have to punch the baseball player ~ 3 times before the baseball player was dead. Grond is suddenly a lot less impressive...

[Zed-F]

Bnaka: No way to all of that. Simply put, every ball-payer would pretty much be a hero-class character if you followed those suggestions.

 

Joe Professional Ball-player is at best a Noteworthy Normal, built on 0 points. He will not have significantly better stats than normal, so 10 BODY, a PS: Ballplayer, a KS: Ballplayer, a hobby, and a familiarity or two. You might give him PD 3 or at most 4.

 

Joe Major-leaguer will probably be a skilled normal, built on 25 points. Stats for skilled normals have 13 STR, 11 DEX, 13 CON, 3 SPD, and 4 PD, which seems reasonable as a starting point. You might give him another PD and maybe another DEX or so, but not much more than that.

 

Joe World-series Champ (Competent Normal) starts with 13 STR, 14 DEX, 13 CON, 10 BODY, 5 PD. Again, maybe 6 PD and 15 STR, but since normal max is 8 and 20 respectively, probably not more than that -- need to leave room for more physical sports like football/wrestling after all.

 

A generic gun is about 1 1/2 to 2d6 RKA. Ball players are not any more immune to bullets than anyone else, World-series Champs or no. Two bullet holes should be enough to put just about anyone down, unless you get some pretty bad rolls. If a player wants more BODY than that, fine, but some random NPC? Probably not more than 11 BODY even on the World-series Champ without good (i.e. plot-related) reason.