What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

[sindyr]

If a player wants to be able to use his noncombat movement without penalty, as combat movement including move throughs and the like, how is that accomplished with this Hero System toolkit? How is that costed out?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

If a player wants to be able to use his noncombat movement without penalty' date=' as combat movement including move throughs and the like, how is that accomplished with this Hero System toolkit? How is that costed out?[/quote']Buy twice as much movement; apply "No non-combat movement" as a Limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

What can I add to Treb's comment? Hmmm...For increased multiples of noncombat movement, double the movement power's inches for each added multiple.

[sindyr]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

How do you add megascale to noncombat movement?

 

For example, if I have megascale flight, and want to have the same speed when I am in combat, how do I price that out?

 

I am getting a sneaking suspicion it is one of those things we are Not Meant to Do, and as such would have a ridiculous point cost.

 

PS. Did 4th Edition have this combat and noncombat movement?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

How do you add megascale to noncombat movement?

 

For example, if I have megascale flight, and want to have the same speed when I am in combat, how do I price that out?

 

I am getting a sneaking suspicion it is one of those things we are Not Meant to Do, and as such would have a ridiculous point cost.

 

PS. Did 4th Edition have this combat and noncombat movement?

 

Things are costed according to their utility. Being able to fly immensely fast in combat is immensely useful and so costs immense amounts of points - I'm not sure you are picking up on that element of the game.

 

Non-combat movement is much less useful than combat movement and so the system provides a cost break on that.

 

If you want to travel at a huge number of inches per phase in combat then you know what you have to do - buy the running/flight/swimming as appropriate....if it costs lots of points then it is because the system believes that is the value...

 

 

Doc

[Trebuchet]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

How do you add megascale to noncombat movement?

 

For example, if I have megascale flight, and want to have the same speed when I am in combat, how do I price that out?

 

I am getting a sneaking suspicion it is one of those things we are Not Meant to Do, and as such would have a ridiculous point cost.

 

PS. Did 4th Edition have this combat and noncombat movement?

Megascale movement per the rules is explicitly non-combat only.

 

Megascale is new in 5th Edition.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Megascale movement per the rules is explicitly non-combat only.

 

Megascale is new in 5th Edition.

 

 

But the distinction between combat and non-combat movement goes all the way back to the original Champions....

 

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

PS. Did 4th Edition have this combat and noncombat movement?

 

It has existed since the inception of the game.

 

It is split that way to define two different concepts, to paraphrase the book some:

 

Combat Movement: moving as fast as possible while still retaining full Combat Values (DCV and OCV).

 

Non-Combat Movement: sacrificing full CV to move as fast as one possibly can (CV = 0; movement is multiplied by NCM Adder).

 

Now, it is acceptable to do things like Move Through Maneuvers at Non-Combat Movement, but you have your OCV and DCV set to 0 to do so.

 

If you want to move farther in Combat buy more Inches of Movement.

[Markdoc]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Now, it is acceptable to do things like Move Through Maneuvers at Non-Combat Movement, but you have your OCV and DCV set to 0 to do so.

 

If you want to move farther in Combat buy more Inches of Movement.

 

Actually, the rules are

While moving at Noncombat Movement velocity, a character is at ½ DCV and 0 OCV

. So you could buy CSLs or PSLs to offset the penalties and then operate normally at noncombat speed

 

Using mega-scaled movement is specifically ruled out "without GM's permission" but if the GM does give permission, it's still going to be problematic. Since the minimum move is 1" and with megamovement, that's 1 km (or 500") a megamove moveby (in theory possible, since you only have a -2 to hit) would do STR/2 + 100 d6 per inch of movement (the attacker would take STR/2 + 50d6 per inch of movement). There's the further problem with megamovement that your turning radius and your acceleration/deceleration speed are also megascaled, so the odds are good you'll hit some feature of the landscape (and go splat!) if you're attempting combat at those speeds, unless you are fighting high in the air or on a featureless plain.

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Ah yeah, 1/2 DCV.

 

While PSL or CSL can get your DCV back up - you can't get your OCV above 0.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Actually' date=' the rules are . So you could buy CSLs or PSLs to offset the penalties and then operate normally at noncombat speed[/quote']

 

Can you buy PSL's to offset halving? I guess DCV levels "only while moving noncombat" would work, although they'd also be halved. I'm pretty sure "it's 0" means "after all levels, reset at 0" so your OCV is stuck.

 

Using mega-scaled movement is specifically ruled out "without GM's permission" but if the GM does give permission' date=' it's still going to be problematic. Since the minimum move is 1" and with megamovement, that's 1 km (or 500") a megamove moveby (in theory possible, since you only have a -2 to hit) would do STR/2 + 100 d6 per inch of movement (the attacker would take STR/2 + 50d6 per inch of movement).[/quote']

 

I thought there was a FAQ or Rules Board question that said you do the computations in inches no matter how large those Megascale inches are, so 5" Megascale - 1,000 km per inch would add 1d6 to a Moveby.

 

There's the further problem with megamovement that your turning radius and your acceleration/deceleration speed are also megascaled' date=' so the odds are good you'll hit some feature of the landscape (and go splat!) if you're attempting combat at those speeds, unless you are fighting high in the air or on a featureless plain.[/quote']

 

Megamovement just isn't all that precise....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Most types of high non-combat movement boil down to just being speed of plot.

 

The only exception to this are high speed chases or dogfights that involve vehicles.

The published real world fighters are built with non-combat movement as the method to reach real world "dogfight" speeds.

This boils down to (in HERO terms at least) fighter pilots that could NEVER hit each other.

 

A movement multipower with 3 different slots is all you need to have access to a high combat, non-combat and megascale version of that movement.

[Markdoc]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Can you buy PSL's to offset halving? I guess DCV levels "only while moving noncombat" would work' date=' although they'd also be halved. I'm pretty sure "it's 0" means "after all levels, reset at 0" so your OCV is stuck.[/quote']

 

Ah - you (and Ghostangel) are probably right about the 0 OCV thing: since modifiers are tacked on last, you'd end up with 0 regardless of how many levels you had. PSLs and CSLs for DCV would work, but they would also be halved in effect.

 

In that case, the way to do it would be to buy extra movement.

 

I thought there was a FAQ or Rules Board question that said you do the computations in inches no matter how large those Megascale inches are' date=' so 5" Megascale - 1,000 km per inch would add 1d6 to a Moveby.[/quote']

 

I'd suggested that myself in a thread a while back since "velocity" in-game is calculated in inches, so technically that could be the case. OTOH, it's hard to defend that idea logically, and the rules on megamovement specifically mention "obliterating" yourself doing movethroughs or movebys, hence the damage calculation I mentioned.

 

Megamovement just isn't all that precise....

 

I'd agree. As a GM, I wouldn't permit megamovement combat under virtually any situations (I might in a hard science space game, with my standard proviso that you can do no more additional damage than your own DEF+BOD: beyond that you begin to spread out over your target, obviating further damage) but that's about it.

 

But even if you did permit it, it'd be hard to use. To move-by or movethrough a target, you need to accelerate, which (under the rules) means moving at least 1". With the smallest level of Megamovement, that's at least a kilometre. So you'd have to start at least a km from your target, and then it'd take another km to decelerate. That means you'd need at least a clear straightaway of 2 km to do even the slowest megamoveby... In most situations you wouldn't even be able to see your target.

 

cheers, Mark

[Fitz]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Using mega-scaled movement is specifically ruled out "without GM's permission" but if the GM does give permission' date=' it's still going to be problematic. Since the minimum move is 1" and with megamovement, that's 1 km (or 500") a megamove moveby (in theory possible, since you only have a -2 to hit) would do STR/2 + 100 d6 per inch of movement (the attacker would take STR/2 + 50d6 per inch of movement). There's the further problem with megamovement that your turning radius and your acceleration/deceleration speed are also megascaled, so the odds are good you'll hit some feature of the landscape (and go splat!) if you're attempting combat at those speeds, unless you are fighting high in the air or on a featureless plain.[/quote']

 

I'd be tempted to permit it just to see the look on the player's face when he takes those 50d6/" and then have what's left smack into the side of a continent

[Sean Waters]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Another problem (although one you can get around with advantages) is acceleration. In most cases by the time you got up to non-combat speed you would be in someone else's house, and they would be wondering how they came to suddenly take up superhero role playing, or possibly whether they should be calling the police.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Typically I allow movement with the same MegaScale level to act as combat movement between participants all using that scale. For example, if two characters using 1km/hex movement are fighting each other, they are both at full CV, but if they try to attack or defend against an opponent using normal 2m/hex movement, they are treated as moving with NCM. I usually balance that a little by figuring movement-based DCV (for the relative velocity between characters moving with different movement scales).

 

I find this approach works well for vehicles and such, and I have to worry less about "realistic speeds" or buying movement up to a ridiculous value. Obviously you have to account for participants moving at 0 speed, but it is usually pretty obvious (ship vs. normal character; engaged in battle or not). For space combat I usually use the model where combat movement (including MegaScale but NOT normal NCM multiplier) is acceleration and maximum difference in speeds at which combat is feasible rather than absolute maximum speed (no such thing really; normal NCM multiples can provide acceleration values for true "out-of-combat" space travel and such).

[Zeropoint]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

It didn't come up much, but for a space opera game I tried to run a while back, I decided that all spacecraft would have an infinite non-combat multiplier for free. Inches of flight could be considered either acceleration (not much of a stretch!) or a maximum relative speed at which the ship can still be considered fully controllable.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Ah yeah, 1/2 DCV.

 

While PSL or CSL can get your DCV back up - you can't get your OCV above 0.

 

You sure? Couldn't you just buy some 5 point CSLs with the limitation (Only at non-combat velocity)? Not saying it would be cheap, but it would get you over zero, yes?

 

EDIT: This sounds like it should be a standard speedster trick.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

You sure? Couldn't you just buy some 5 point CSLs with the limitation (Only at non-combat velocity)? Not saying it would be cheap, but it would get you over zero, yes?

 

EDIT: This sounds like it should be a standard speedster trick.

 

GM permission is the only way to handle it by current RAW.

 

I consider this to be one of the last big holes left in the rules.

[Markdoc]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

You sure? Couldn't you just buy some 5 point CSLs with the limitation (Only at non-combat velocity)? Not saying it would be cheap' date=' but it would get you over zero, yes?[/quote']

 

That was my initial thought, but I think the other guys are right in this case. Modifiers like '1/2 DCV' or '0 OCV' are applied after levels and penalties/bonuses so '0 OCV' would still be '0 OCV' regardless of what your OCV was beforehand.

 

As a GM, I can see houseruling this to allow it, but by RAW, I think Hugh and Ghostangel are correct.

 

cheers, Mark

[archermoo]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

You sure? Couldn't you just buy some 5 point CSLs with the limitation (Only at non-combat velocity)? Not saying it would be cheap, but it would get you over zero, yes?

 

EDIT: This sounds like it should be a standard speedster trick.

 

See 5ER p373. Basically the last step in figuring OCV is halving and/or reducing by a percentage. It also explicitly states that reducing to 0 should be considered a reduction by percentage. Though I'll also say it also specifically states that this is unless the Ref thinks it should be handled differently, and gives using 0 as the base rather than as the final result as an example.

 

Personally I use whichever one gives the lower OCV. But I'm like that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

What the others have said RE raising OCV during Non-Combat Movement.

 

I might, depending on the game, allow "5pt CSLs;Only While Moving Non-Combat" up to half the characters base OCV.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Yeah, I think I've got it.

 

You buy whatever movement you like at noncombat or even megascale speeds.

 

Then you buy about 50 dice of mental illusions and a galaxy spanning AoE so that everyone THINKS you are harder to hit than you are and just dodges into anything you throw at them.

 

That should do it.

[Istaran]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

Excellent plan. Even better, you can 'hit' them directly with Mental Illusions, dealing STUN and possibly even BODY (better yet, you get to decide every time if you want to deal BODY or not!) without even needing to throw anything.

 

BTW, is it just me or is it only OCV/DCV that are penalized.. as in ECV is still at full. May be time to make a speedster/mentalist of high speed imaginary doom?

[ghost-angel]

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

 

BTW' date=' is it just me or is it only OCV/DCV that are penalized.. as in ECV is still at full. May be time to make a speedster/mentalist of high speed imaginary doom?[/quote']

 

It is only Dex Based CVs that are effected. Nominally because you are physically moving to either go all out, or dodge bullets.