Blasting Mental Blast

[Sean Waters]

I know I've talked about this recently, but I keep coming back to it. I like the idea of 5pts=1d6 damage, no matter what the type of power. I've had some more thoughts.

Adjustment powers could all work on 1d6 damage = 5 points but, by default, work against either PD or ED, as decided at time of purchase, with an advantage (I’d suggest +1) if they worked against power defence, flash defence, mental defence or such.

Mental attacks: in some ways the most difficult power to emulate because the rules are so very different from normal EBs and the actual cost of the power is very heavily discounted from what it would be if you bought it as an EB and built it. Effectively a mental attack is NND/AVLD (at least +1) AND invisible to two senses (+3/4), works against ECV (technically +1, but arguably a wash) and so work at LOS range.

However, of the secondary defences (after PD and ED), mental defence is probably the most common and often has a decent value (Although EGO, only for defensive purposes, is arguably a much better purchase against everything but mental attacks)

So, here’s a radical idea: get rid of Ego/Mental Attack.

It has always been a bit of an anomaly, as it works differently from other mental powers i.e. it causes damage, and you CAN purchase it, albeit as a power build. There is even some genre support for this idea – in, I’d suggest, the majority of cases, when a damaging mental power is used in the comics it has visible sfx, in contrast to the subtler telepathy/mind control type powers.

So, bit extreme, but I’m not really sure that we can even justify the current cost of the power, or identify a need necessarily for the power as it is. Whilst it has the weight of history behind it, I’ve always thought that a particularly poor justification for continuing with something, at least in isolation.

Thoughts?

[Kdansky]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Totally agreed. Free Invisibility always bothered me. If you really want an Attack which can be launched from miles away, cannot be detected and goes through all defenses while hitting 95% of the time (30 EGO vs 15 EGO?), then you should just damn well pay for it.

 

Also, that gets rid of the chapter on "how to discourage players from mental sniping" (in UMM) because you just can't do it anymore for free.

 

I would like the variant on CVs: You may choose which CV (DCV and OCV or ECV) is used, fitting for SFX. You may also choose whether to be 1hex accurate or standard, nothing of these costs points.

 

 

Sidetrack: "We've always done it this way" is not an argument, that's an excuse. Or didn't you stop using diapers at some point? But you have done it before! Therefore it cannot be bad now, can it?

[Beast]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

mental blast costs 2x as much an EB not free

this also makes defenses 2x as effective

the costs seem just about right and mentalists tend to be one of the harder arch-types to play so making it cost more to play type of character is just as bad as wanting to double the cost of strength(other subject that is a pet peeve)

 

in the majority of comics mental attacks are invisible so the system is just reflecting that

as a GM you can require your players to buy mental blast from the ground up

 

as for sniping you are going to have to see your target(not that bump on the horizion)and Id it

you also cannot blow down doors or walls

robots are immune

a special adder is needed to attack different classes of minds

I feel it is balanced as is

 

 

Totally agreed. Free Invisibility always bothered me. If you really want an Attack which can be launched from miles away, cannot be detected and goes through all defenses while hitting 95% of the time (30 EGO vs 15 EGO?), then you should just damn well pay for it.

 

Also, that gets rid of the chapter on "how to discourage players from mental sniping" (in UMM) because you just can't do it anymore for free.

 

I would like the variant on CVs: You may choose which CV (DCV and OCV or ECV) is used, fitting for SFX. You may also choose whether to be 1hex accurate or standard, nothing of these costs points.

 

 

Sidetrack: "We've always done it this way" is not an argument, that's an excuse. Or didn't you stop using diapers at some point? But you have done it before! Therefore it cannot be bad now, can it?

[caris]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

as for sniping you are going to have to see your target(not that bump on the horizion)

 

 

What he is talking about though is the builds like +50 Telescopic with the sight group, or the Tunelling N-Ray Vision, or Clairsentience taken with Mental Attack combos, which get around that pesky "need to see the target" problem. The basic "they don't know where I am/who I am/how to find me/etc" characters. I personally, find it easy to discourage them, I say "no," but I can understand the desire for the points to make this a less desirable combo. The problem is that I think that it might end up making Ego Attack cost so much that it just flat out becomes undesirable, period.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Thing is, Beast, it does depend how you play the various advantages of mental blast. You are quite right that there are drawbacks, but they are easily addressed - most mentalists employ a MP and a second attack slot with a NND (mental defences), Does Body should sort you out nicely, but being able to attack at substantial range (even without telescopic senses) without OCV penalty and in such a way that your attacks cannot be seen is powerful indeed.

 

Certainly it would cost a lot more than 10 points per 1d6 to scratch build, and that is my problem. Other attack types easily fit into the 1d6-5points framework. This doesn't. Too many easter eggs.

[Kdansky]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Assume the character can fly or the fighting field is not horribly crowded: I think I could spot someone a 100 meters away, that's not even a stadium-length. That's 50", or -8 to your attack roll. You won't hit with a normal EB at that distance, ever. But you will do so easily with a mental attack. That's what I meant. Telescopic or similar only make things worse.

 

If you don't think it's a problem, why did UMM even mention page 279 - "The Mentalist Sniper Problem"?

 

And EB (NND) compared to Ego Attack does not seem fair at all:

so making it cost more to play type of character is just as bad as wanting to double the cost of strength(other subject that is a pet peeve)

Mentalists are not "hard to play" by default. But they are poweful by default. Mind Scan, Mental Illusion, Telepathy, Mind Control and EGO Attack are all some of the most powerful things the book offers, because they can have incredibly powerful effects in one turn (against weak enemies with not so much EGO), and just copy something else like entangle or flash easily against strong enemies. We certainly don't need a debate on "is Mind Control powerful enough?"

 

in the majority of comics mental attacks are invisible so the system is just reflecting that

I would not say so. There are enough "mental" attacks which have pink flashes and whatdoIknow. Also, SFX should not be mixed with mechanics.

 

as a GM you can require your players to buy mental blast from the ground up

I'm not sure what you mean? Forbid them MPs? And I can certainly houserule things, but that's not the point now, is it?

 

as for sniping you are going to have to see your target(not that bump on the horizion)and Id it

True, but that's quite easy at "medium range", a couple hundred meters, and normal Attacks plain fail at that distance. Advantage: EGO Attack.

 

you also cannot blow down doors or walls: NND can't either. And usually I'd rather shoot at enemies than at doors. Advantage: EGO Attack.

 

robots are immune: Same goes for NND, except everyone can buy it. Robots are also immune to stun, usually. Advantage: EGO Attack.

 

a special adder is needed to attack different classes of minds: That's a band-aid for a SFX problem and we know it. I'd rather have that worded out correctly. ("Power cannot be used against robots: -1/4")

 

 

 

Let's see how we could build it, roughly:

EB, 1d6 per 5 points.

AVLD/NND vs Mental Defense (+1, might be +1.25), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Based on ECV vs ECV (+0 as proposed above, or +1/2), Psionic (means: only vs stuff with minds, no robots or walls) (-1/2), IPE (+1), Visible vs Mental Awareness (-1/4)

 

So total about +2.5 to +3.75 and -0.75, AP from 17.5 to 23.75, real cost from 10.0 (chance?) to 13.57 per d6.

 

And it's very visible now that Active Point caps are broken, which is exactly what we feel. When it works, it works too well. Typical "high ap, some limitation".

 

I'd like to calculate it differently: +2.75 -0.75 = +2, 15 points per d6. That would seem fair anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Certainly it would cost a lot more than 10 points per 1d6 to scratch build' date=' and that is my problem. Other attack types easily fit into the 1d6-5points framework. This doesn't. Too many easter eggs.[/quote']

 

An AVLD vs Mental Defenses is Visible, has range modifiers and attacks using DEX. And it costs 12.5 points per d6.

 

I have not found Mental Blast unbalancing, in part because my players don't abuse the lack of range modifier or invisibility of the power, but in part, I think, because AVLD is overpriced.

[Beast]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

accually using hero designer

using vs ecv adavntage you get 0 rang mod unless you choose not to

 

also a mentalist going against a 10 ego target in a 60 ap game averages 42 pts on mind control

if the target has no defenses against it it would be an ego-0 to breakout so there is a 62.5% chance of breaking free and in effect having no effect on the target

going for a don't shoot me but the others on my team are ok targets might not make you a favorite person on said team unless there is a masocist on the team

 

in general a mentalist needs to set up their target using either maneuvers or adjustment powers to make the mind control/mental illusions last more than a phase but has them not putting down their target any faster

 

and when I mentioned not being able to blow down doors and walls

it was in reference to go through barriers and entangles which am ego blast cannot do

because we all know some doors are just locked

 

Assume the character can fly or the fighting field is not horribly crowded: I think I could spot someone a 100 meters away, that's not even a stadium-length. That's 50", or -8 to your attack roll. You won't hit with a normal EB at that distance, ever. But you will do so easily with a mental attack. That's what I meant. Telescopic or similar only make things worse.

 

If you don't think it's a problem, why did UMM even mention page 279 - "The Mentalist Sniper Problem"?

 

And EB (NND) compared to Ego Attack does not seem fair at all:

 

Mentalists are not "hard to play" by default. But they are poweful by default. Mind Scan, Mental Illusion, Telepathy, Mind Control and EGO Attack are all some of the most powerful things the book offers, because they can have incredibly powerful effects in one turn (against weak enemies with not so much EGO), and just copy something else like entangle or flash easily against strong enemies. We certainly don't need a debate on "is Mind Control powerful enough?"

 

 

I would not say so. There are enough "mental" attacks which have pink flashes and whatdoIknow. Also, SFX should not be mixed with mechanics.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean? Forbid them MPs? And I can certainly houserule things, but that's not the point now, is it?

 

 

True, but that's quite easy at "medium range", a couple hundred meters, and normal Attacks plain fail at that distance. Advantage: EGO Attack.

 

you also cannot blow down doors or walls: NND can't either. And usually I'd rather shoot at enemies than at doors. Advantage: EGO Attack.

 

robots are immune: Same goes for NND, except everyone can buy it. Robots are also immune to stun, usually. Advantage: EGO Attack.

 

a special adder is needed to attack different classes of minds: That's a band-aid for a SFX problem and we know it. I'd rather have that worded out correctly. ("Power cannot be used against robots: -1/4")

 

 

 

Let's see how we could build it, roughly:

EB, 1d6 per 5 points.

AVLD/NND vs Mental Defense (+1, might be +1.25), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Based on ECV vs ECV (+0 as proposed above, or +1/2), Psionic (means: only vs stuff with minds, no robots or walls) (-1/2), IPE (+1), Visible vs Mental Awareness (-1/4)

 

So total about +2.5 to +3.75 and -0.75, AP from 17.5 to 23.75, real cost from 10.0 (chance?) to 13.57 per d6.

 

And it's very visible now that Active Point caps are broken, which is exactly what we feel. When it works, it works too well. Typical "high ap, some limitation".

 

I'd like to calculate it differently: +2.75 -0.75 = +2, 15 points per d6. That would seem fair anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

It's never been a balance issue in any game I've ever played.

 

Making changing it a non-issue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

An AVLD vs Mental Defenses is Visible, has range modifiers and attacks using DEX. And it costs 12.5 points per d6.

 

I have not found Mental Blast unbalancing, in part because my players don't abuse the lack of range modifier or invisibility of the power, but in part, I think, because AVLD is overpriced.

 

But Hugh, that's saying that the power works because you make the power work, not because it is right in the first place. Taking advantage of what the power tells you you can do is not any kind of abuse I'm familiar with.

 

I agree AVLD is overpriced. I'd make it +1, or +1/2 against resistant defences (only), but even at the reduced costof AVLD, add IPE at +3/4 and LOS at +1/2, so, scratch built, it should cost (ignoring the cost of BOECV) 5 (+2 1/4) or 16.25 points per 1d6. If someone bought the power that way, should it somehow be more effective - should we be letting them attack at greater range or have their attacks somehow even less noticeable, or would using what they've paid for be abusive?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

accually using hero designer

using vs ecv adavntage you get 0 rang mod unless you choose not to

 

also a mentalist going against a 10 ego target in a 60 ap game averages 42 pts on mind control

if the target has no defenses against it it would be an ego-0 to breakout so there is a 62.5% chance of breaking free and in effect having no effect on the target

going for a don't shoot me but the others on my team are ok targets might not make you a favorite person on said team unless there is a masocist on the team

 

in general a mentalist needs to set up their target using either maneuvers or adjustment powers to make the mind control/mental illusions last more than a phase but has them not putting down their target any faster

 

....................

 

...or not shoot for EGO+30 every time. I agree a mentalist has to be a bit sneakier than a straight up Blaster or Brawler, but you can get some astonishingly useful effects at EGO+10 with mind control. That's way off topic, but I've never been adverse to avoiding the beaten path

[Maur]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I'd like to calculate it differently: +2.75 -0.75 = +2' date=' 15 points per d6. That would seem fair anyway.[/quote']

 

And what do you do when you have more limitations than advantages and that multiplier becomes a negative number?

[Kdansky]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Then you do it exactly like now.

[caris]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I agree AVLD is overpriced. I'd make it +1' date=' or +1/2 against resistant defences (only), but even at the reduced costof AVLD, add IPE at +3/4 and LOS at +1/2, so, scratch built, it should cost (ignoring the cost of BOECV) 5 (+2 1/4) or 16.25 points per 1d6. If someone bought the power that way, should it somehow be more effective - should we be letting them attack at greater range or have their attacks somehow even less noticeable, or would using what they've paid for be abusive?[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I like the ignoring of BOEC, because doesn't that give both the AVLD and LOS aspects of the build to it?

 

Also, I think you may have to consider what I call the "this is the way it is done effect". I don't mean that in the "this is the way we've always done it" sense. There are several things that are significantly cheaper than they would be if you built them from scratch (radar, active sonar, IR and UV visions all come to mind). I can only think that they are so much cheaper, because the way they are built to an official standard gives them some inherent limitations.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I'm not sure I like the ignoring of BOEC, because doesn't that give both the AVLD and LOS aspects of the build to it?

 

Also, I think you may have to consider what I call the "this is the way it is done effect". I don't mean that in the "this is the way we've always done it" sense. There are several things that are significantly cheaper than they would be if you built them from scratch (radar, active sonar, IR and UV visions all come to mind). I can only think that they are so much cheaper, because the way they are built to an official standard gives them some inherent limitations.

 

OK, BOECV gives you LOS and attacks v mental defence. That's +1 and you still have to buy invisible power effects (for +3/4) and, for damaging attacks, you also need 'affects desolid' (which I forgot until I looked up BOECV. Those rules are insane, BTW, but there you have it), which is +1+3/4+1/2 or +2.25, which, by a different route, is what I worked it out to earlier. Also mental attacks are partially indirect in that the can pass through intervening barriers that you can see through, but that just makes it even more expensive. You might as well tell the kids that goldfish leave Lincoln Logs in your sock drawer, which would at least have a miraculous connotation.

 

Radar and sonar, UV and IR vision are not discounted as far as I can see. I presume they either use the simulated sense rule or take longer than normal to use (none of them are bought with the 'sense' modifier).

 

Mind you, on that point, normal vision is not bought with the sense modifier, and it is not built with the discriminatory modifier, which is...odd. Getting off topic there, Sean. Concentrate now...

[caris]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Radar and sonar' date=' UV and IR vision are not discounted as far as I can see. I presume they either use the simulated sense rule or take longer than normal to use (none of them are bought with the 'sense' modifier).[/quote']

 

Except neither the Radio Group nor the Hearing Group come with Targeting.

[Beast]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Sean if you take all the effects and and cost them to what they should be

nobody would ever take them

as it is since there was such a hub bub about HA's costing 3pts that it was made to cost 5 but you had to use these disads

 

what is used in Fred works pretty much as mental powers work in the major comic lines(yes there are some that work differently but most work as depicted in Fred)

most of the effects drawn in the comics for mental powers are more to show the reader that the mentalist is doing something

 

right now for me the cost work out just fine

refiguring the costs of mental powers is just going to be a big monkey wrench in the scheme of things and mentalist won't be worth playing any longer

points wise in your mind things may not balance but in the game they work just fine

 

IR and UV are addons to the basic sight package that every character gets and that has sense on it

so there is no need to buy it twice

 

 

OK, BOECV gives you LOS and attacks v mental defence. That's +1 and you still have to buy invisible power effects (for +3/4) and, for damaging attacks, you also need 'affects desolid' (which I forgot until I looked up BOECV. Those rules are insane, BTW, but there you have it), which is +1+3/4+1/2 or +2.25, which, by a different route, is what I worked it out to earlier. Also mental attacks are partially indirect in that the can pass through intervening barriers that you can see through, but that just makes it even more expensive. You might as well tell the kids that goldfish leave Lincoln Logs in your sock drawer, which would at least have a miraculous connotation.

 

Radar and sonar, UV and IR vision are not discounted as far as I can see. I presume they either use the simulated sense rule or take longer than normal to use (none of them are bought with the 'sense' modifier).

 

Mind you, on that point, normal vision is not bought with the sense modifier, and it is not built with the discriminatory modifier, which is...odd. Getting off topic there, Sean. Concentrate now...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Except neither the Radio Group nor the Hearing Group come with Targeting.

 

...so they are not targeting, unless they use the simulated sense rule. A lot of people miss that

 

The senses rules are good, better than almost any other game, but not quite right yet. By the system's own definition, normal sight only perceived the presence of light and the intensity (I assume normal sight dtects visible light). And you can only perceive stuff in combat with normal sight if the GM lets you, or as a half phase PER action. Boy, that bugs me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Sean if you take all the effects and and cost them to what they should be

nobody would ever take them

as it is since there was such a hub bub about HA's costing 3pts that it was made to cost 5 but you had to use these disads

 

what is used in Fred works pretty much as mental powers work in the major comic lines(yes there are some that work differently but most work as depicted in Fred)

most of the effects drawn in the comics for mental powers are more to show the reader that the mentalist is doing something

 

right now for me the cost work out just fine

refiguring the costs of mental powers is just going to be a big monkey wrench in the scheme of things and mentalist won't be worth playing any longer

points wise in your mind things may not balance but in the game they work just fine

 

IR and UV are addons to the basic sight package that every character gets and that has sense on it

so there is no need to buy it twice

 

I think that this argument is more that the cost of IPE is too great, or the benefits too small (and I certainly believe that the rules could be...less opaque). If that is the case then mental attacks fit better within the expected framework.

 

However, arguing that mental attacks work because people do not use their full potential is a strange way to proceed.

 

Even after all this time I'm not entirely sure if, when Rampant Lad mentally blasts Headache Lass, HL can tell it is RL that is causing her headache. I know that no one else can, but it seems strangely...balance oriented...if she can...and if she can (automatically, as opposed to by deduction) then IPE is almost certainly too expensive for what it does.

 

Part of the problem is that we expect too much of our characters. When Carrie sets someone alight, or Darth chokes them, or even when Freddie cuts them up, it takes minutes of screen time. We expect serious results in mere seconds. 'I can kill you just by thinking about it' probably should take some time (i.e. not cause damage so quickly), and be seriously scary.

[Beast]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I have always taken it that to do the damage or effect you had to make contact with the mind you want to effect

therefore they know you are doing something and can reason pain came after I saw your face in my mind's eye

 

if your intention was to bring up that some advantages are over priced then you went about proving it backwards IMHO

you should be using mental powers as your example not as what is wrong with mental blast and the rest of mental powers

 

yes I could see some advantages getting cut in half so that the power could do something to against a villian and not be relagated to agent busting

specifically

area of effects

explosions

no range mod

invisible power effects

continous

auto fire(keep the penalty to reduce end)

and maybe a few others

 

as for sight I see that it has

detect light

sense

target

discriminate(id individual things gross(people vs dogs,colors)

analyze(id individuals,shades of color)

range

 

 

I think that this argument is more that the cost of IPE is too great, or the benefits too small (and I certainly believe that the rules could be...less opaque). If that is the case then mental attacks fit better within the expected framework.

 

However, arguing that mental attacks work because people do not use their full potential is a strange way to proceed.

 

Even after all this time I'm not entirely sure if, when Rampant Lad mentally blasts Headache Lass, HL can tell it is RL that is causing her headache. I know that no one else can, but it seems strangely...balance oriented...if she can...and if she can (automatically, as opposed to by deduction) then IPE is almost certainly too expensive for what it does.

 

Part of the problem is that we expect too much of our characters. When Carrie sets someone alight, or Darth chokes them, or even when Freddie cuts them up, it takes minutes of screen time. We expect serious results in mere seconds. 'I can kill you just by thinking about it' probably should take some time (i.e. not cause damage so quickly), and be seriously scary.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I was not aiming to show that IPE is too expensive (in fact if I was addressing the point I'd probably do power visibility very differently) but I'm saying that, taking IPE at the current cost it is part of mental blast and unfair to say that you should work round its advantages.

 

As to whether a target would know who is attacking them, an invisible grab would allow you to target the grabber, I can 'see' that, but an invisible punch or EB you are only going to know th edirection it came from. If you flail about int he hex in front of you in the direction it came from and your attacker is standing there then you might hit them, but it is difficult to 'see' how you could effectively target an attacker hitting you with a ranged IPE attack unless they were the only person standing in that direction - and that is nothing to do with power application, just basic deduction.

 

Moreover if the attacker were in a crowd, and not doing anything obvious like pointing a gun at you, knowing who invisibly EB'd you would be very difficult. I'd sugegst the same should apply to an invisible mental blast, at least logically - even if you get smoe sort of mental signature from teh attack, how would you know who that signature belongs to unelss you've been atatcked by them before?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

What if we removed the AVLD advantage from our consideration completely? MD costs the same as PD and ED, and starts at about the same value for a very small cost. We could start with the assumption that, in a game with a mentalist, MD is going to be somewhat common (especially after the first couple of combats as the players start to get scared or the battles are too easy for them). And remember that it even costs points (though less) to make Ego Attack work against PD instead of MD, or make Transform or Drain work against ED instead of PowD. By the reasoning in this thread those changes should save points rather than costing them, but in the base system it is as much about changing the default and expected configuration of the power as it is about whether the defense is more or less common.

 

So this just adds to the number of attack and defense possibilities. It allows the OCV/DCV/ECV argument above (choose one; no additional cost) to extend to the resistance (defense) as well as avoidance (CV). How do the costs compare when we remove AVLD completely and just talk about the other benefits of the power (range and visibility)?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

BoECV should really be broken down into its component parts:

 

* Goes Vs. MD Rather Than PD Or ED

* Targets ECV Rather Than CV

* Invisible Power Effects

* Range: Line Of Sight

* No Range Modifier

* Stun Only

 

If you do that, you can choose to, or not to, apply individual pieces to your attack.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

BoECV should really be broken down into its component parts:

 

* Goes Vs. MD Rather Than PD Or ED

* Targets ECV Rather Than CV

* Invisible Power Effects

* Range: Line Of Sight

* No Range Modifier

* Stun Only

 

If you do that, you can choose to, or not to, apply individual pieces to your attack.

 

I'd rather that ego attack stay a 10 pt/d6 power because breaking it into its component parts would make it more attractive to advantage stackers.

 

Whether it is overpowered, underpowered or just right depends entirely on the context. In a game full of high EGO combatants with lots of mental defense, then it's not very good. If you're in a game where EGO is rarely increased and mental defense is rare, then it's a bargain.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I'd rather that ego attack stay a 10 pt/d6 power because breaking it into its component parts would make it more attractive to advantage stackers.

 

Good point. Armor would not quite be the same as Force Field made Persistent even if the costs matched, because Advantages are cheaper for the power with the lower Base Cost. That's one of the reasons I think going to multiplicative Modifiers (e.g. x5/4 for an Advantage and x4/5 for a Limitation) would be a good thing; Base Cost stops mattering if you do that.