Blasting Mental Blast

[Kdansky]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Oh, I like that: Break down the multitude of things which are included into EGO Attack and make them different modifiers. That might of might not end up with the same cost, but it certainly would be more fitting to the system. Also, it would to away with EGO attack in the rules. Abstraction is good.

 

Did you ever explain to someone: "Well, if you want damage in any way, say, a fireball, or a club, or what have you, then you buy an EB and tack advantages and limitations onto it so it fits what you want." - "I want to have a mental blast." - "well, in THAT case, you don't use EB." - "Why? I thought these rules are about effects?" - "Errr.... Because... errr... well...."

 

Happened to me...

 

To sum up: We do not have EGO Attack because the system could not do the effect without it. We have it because we had it in earlier versions (like Armor vs Force Field). Does that validate it? Certainly not. Just because you did something 20 years ago does not mean it is the best way for doing it. Or are you still using a Modem with 33k and a black/white television?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

So far, most of the arguments used against Ego Blast are equally valid against several Talents.

 

Take Combat Luck as an example.

Does anyone on this thread allow players to add additional Advantages to that Talent (which itself is just Armor with specific Advantages and Limitations)?

[Utech]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Ego Blast is not Energy Blast with Advantages and Limitations and another point cost. It is a different Power. A different tool for our tool kit.

 

Don't like it? Don't use it.

 

But don't toss it out of the kit.

[Edsel]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

It's never been a balance issue in any game I've ever played.

 

Making changing it a non-issue.

I pretty much agree with this. I see no need to mess with something that I see as essentially not broken. It adds flexibility so I like it.

 

If anything, in our games, we have found Mental Defense to be so common that Ego Attacks are not worth it. People who buy Mental Defense usually buy enough to protect themselves from Mental Illusions, Telepathy and the like. As a result the Ego Attack which costs twice as much is often to weak to be really effective. Our group has had to be a lot more strict about character rational in order to limit the amount of Mental Defense in the game. It was getting to the point that Mentalists were becoming little more than annoyances. This was my view but others in my gaming group may have a different opinion.

 

One thing that we have used in the past is buying Mental Defense with the Limitation Not vs. Ego Attacks (-1/2) to simulate those who have been trained to prevent intrusion into their minds. Often a Mentalist character will have perhaps 10 or 15 Mental Defense with an additional 10 or 15 points with the limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

So far, most of the arguments used against Ego Blast are equally valid against several Talents.

 

Take Combat Luck as an example.

Does anyone on this thread allow players to add additional Advantages to that Talent (which itself is just Armor with specific Advantages and Limitations)?

 

If someone wants to buy, say, combat luck, they can buy it, but if they want to change the build then they use the build for combat luck with modified modifiers. That's how I play it and, by and large, that is the better way to do it because if you add advantages to combat luck (as a complete unit) you wind up paying more than you would if you just built the power straight.

 

Now I understand that you can use the same logic with a mental blast: 4d6 Ego Attack at 0 END costs 60 points, whereas if we built it as a straight EB with +1 advantages making it equivalent to aego attack, then the cost would be 50 points (20 x 2 1/2).

 

This argument would hold water if Ego Attack were not such an obvious bargain. What it says to me is that we either have the cost of Ego Attack wrong or the cost of the component advantages.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I pretty much agree with this. I see no need to mess with something that I see as essentially not broken. It adds flexibility so I like it.

 

If it is not broken then that appears to be a function of common useage rather than build. An ego attack is an indirect attack (ignoring conventional barriers) with almost unlimited range that does not take a range modifier, grants a sense and affects desolid. Although it is based on LOS you don't actually need LOS so long as you are willing to take a -1 to -3 penalty.

 

Sure if you just use it like a normal EB that works against mental defence it is nicely balanced (AVLD is too expensive IMO), but if you read the rules and play them to your advantage then, well, the enemy are in trouble. Big stylee.

 

If anything, in our games, we have found Mental Defense to be so common that Ego Attacks are not worth it. People who buy Mental Defense usually buy enough to protect themselves from Mental Illusions, Telepathy and the like. As a result the Ego Attack which costs twice as much is often to weak to be really effective. Our group has had to be a lot more strict about character rational in order to limit the amount of Mental Defense in the game. It was getting to the point that Mentalists were becoming little more than annoyances. This was my view but others in my gaming group may have a different opinion.

 

One thing that we have used in the past is buying Mental Defense with the Limitation Not vs. Ego Attacks (-1/2) to simulate those who have been trained to prevent intrusion into their minds. Often a Mentalist character will have perhaps 10 or 15 Mental Defense with an additional 10 or 15 points with the limitation.

 

This is a decent point: a 12DC/6d6 Ego Attack will generate an average of 21 stun, and it doesn't take too much mental defence to seriously blunt that. OTOH every 10 points spent on mental defence cuts down the points the defender is spending elsewhere: 5 pd and 5 ed, for example, and if they are spending enough to really protect themselves from mental illusions and mind control, they are probably spending more than that, weakening the character against other threats. In my experience and, I have to say, it the majority of published characters (other than the obvious mentalists) mental defence is not common until the points totals start getting seriously high. I doubt the majority of starting 350 point characters have any mental defence, and a substantial number of more experienced villains don't either.

 

Of course to say that the power isn't broken against opponents who have bought the relevant defence is perhaps not taking a balanced view. Against an opponent without the defence (often the majority of opponents), you are putting 21 stun through defences, which is more than an equivalent cost EB would against avarage defences (I assume that an average defence for PD and ED is 2xcampaign DCs). Against an opponent without the defence where the attacker is taking full advantage of the freebie advantages granted by ego attack (and I don't mean that as a criticism - it is only sensible to use your full tactical array), they shouldn't stand much of a chance at all.

 

Stylistically I'd like to be able to base all damaging powers (including adjustment type powers) on 5 points for 1d6, but even if I'm in the minority there (as usual ), you get too much for 10 points.

 

Ego Attack is still far too much bang for your buck.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

So if we had a game of some sort with few resistant defences, that would be an argument for increasing the cost of Killing Attacks for the whole global system? I don't buy it. And I don't think the commonality of Mental Defense or Mental Powers in some or even "most" games should dictate the price of those powers. A house rule for your particular game? Sure, if that's the way you want to handle the frequency of powers. But not for the Hero System in general.

 

Note: And I'm saying either way here. Both for the "it's too cheap" argument and for the "it's just fine" argument.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

There is certainly an argument for genre by genre pricing of powers, or even genre power cost modifiers (not one that I'd make though), although that complicates things from the standpoint of a truly universal system. However what we can say about Hero is that across every genre (apart, perhaps, from Psychic Hero) resistant defences are far more common and plentiful than mental defences and that is because killing attacks are more common than mental attacks. It is not a bizarre SeanWorld where mental attacks are not that common - it is Hero baseline.

 

However it is no argument at all to say that it is not broke so don't fix it. Whatever rules you have, the system (or rather the system users) will mould itself around them. We've had dodgy rules that have survived many generations of the system, before meeting their end. Would Ego Attack be taken any less if it was a visible attack with normal range modifiers that used ECV and operated against mental defence, affecting desolid opponents but not passing through barriers for the same price? It would still, by the lights of the rest of the system, be a bargain buy (that's effectively +2 in advantages, which should cost out at 15 points per 1d6)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

As I said earlier, I don't see it as being more expensive because it uses ECV and works against Mental Defense (though OTHER powers reconfigured to work on those bases and thus not along the normal lines have a cost increase). The other things (mostly invisible, indirect, etc.), yes.

 

Transform is based on the cost of Killing Attacks, but it is certainly less common (as is Power Defense) than them, yes? Why aren't we talking about upping the cost of Transform? Power Defense, Flash Defense, and Mental Defense are "less common" by far than PD and ED, yet we aren't discussing an increase in their costs. I believe the costs have to do with the effectiveness of the powers, given the assumption of a similar value of defense against each of them, NOT on the commonality of the power or defense. And personally, that's the way I'd like it to say.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

As I said earlier, I don't see it as being more expensive because it uses ECV and works against Mental Defense (though OTHER powers reconfigured to work on those bases and thus not along the normal lines have a cost increase). The other things (mostly invisible, indirect, etc.), yes.

 

Transform is based on the cost of Killing Attacks, but it is certainly less common (as is Power Defense) than them, yes? Why aren't we talking about upping the cost of Transform? Power Defense, Flash Defense, and Mental Defense are "less common" by far than PD and ED, yet we aren't discussing an increase in their costs. I believe the costs have to do with the effectiveness of the powers, given the assumption of a similar value of defense against each of them, NOT on the commonality of the power or defense. And personally, that's the way I'd like it to say.

 

I'm not moaning about transform costs here (even though, currently, they are wrong, given their stated basis), because there is an easy fix for that - you make transform, as a default, work at 5 points per 1d6, against PD or ED (decided when you buy the power), and you need BODYx2 for a cosmetic transform, Bodyx4 for a minor transform and Bodyx6 for a major transform (or half those values if you want to transform a part of the target where such a transformation would not affect the whole). You can then buy it AVLD if you want it to work against power defence. It works beautifully.

 

Ego Blast does not work like that. It is an sfx build that can't easily be fixed and is far too generous with the free advantages - like I said, even if you JUST take IPE, LOS, No Range modifiers, indirect and affects desolid (ignoring BOECV and AVLD except where they overlap with the above) it is STILL far too 'generous'. Thats +2 3/4 in advantages right there.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I'm not moaning about transform costs here (even though' date=' currently, they are wrong, given their stated basis), because there is an easy fix for that - you make transform, as a default, work at 5 points per 1d6, against PD or ED (decided when you buy the power), and you need BODYx2 for a cosmetic transform, Bodyx4 for a minor transform and Bodyx6 for a major transform (or half those values if you want to transform a part of the target where such a transformation would not affect the whole). You can then buy it AVLD if you want it to work against power defence. It works beautifully.[/quote']

 

Why not have Transform work against BODY, BODY+10, BODY+20, etc., with additional items for special Transformation types?

 

I mean, it's a great idea and all, though I favor doing away with that mechanic. Still.

[Utech]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Sean,

 

You seem to be arguing that Ego Blast is horribly unbalanced. I have not experienced that in any game I've ever been a part of. Have you?

 

In my experience, Ego Blast is priced just right. It is not Energy Blast with a number of Advantages and Limitations tacked on -- no more than an elephant is a horse with a trunk tacked on. It is an entirely different beast.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Sean,

 

You seem to be arguing that Ego Blast is horribly unbalanced. I have not experienced that in any game I've ever been a part of. Have you?

 

In my experience, Ego Blast is priced just right. It is not Energy Blast with a number of Advantages and Limitations tacked on -- no more than an elephant is a horse with a trunk tacked on. It is an entirely different beast.

 

All damaging powers in Hero are closely connected, and all of them work out about the same in terms of utility in a 'straight' fight but I have seen Ego Attack used effectively and it is very effective indeed.

 

As a power used against, say, an energy blaster, in an open arena, it is just a matter of attrition because the energy blaster knows who is attacking, the range is limited anyway and there are no barriers.

 

As I say, 'straight', you are quite right they balance, just like NND attacks do.

 

OTOH you'd have to be a bit soft not to use the advantages of Ego Attack both in play and build, and that is where Ego Attack becomes very, very nasty. It IS the same as a heavily advantaged EB - and if you were going to build such a heavily advantaged EB then you would synergise the rest of the build too. Take a force wall (you have an attack that goes straight through it. Take decent movement so you can maintain range. Take an N-Ray telescopic targeting sense, all of which are justifiable under a mental powers suite.

 

Just because people have not always realised the potential of the power does not mean it is not there. Moreover, if it is balanced without that potential being realised currently, then we would be taking away nothing in practice if we nerfed some of the inherent advantages of the power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Why not have Transform work against BODY, BODY+10, BODY+20, etc., with additional items for special Transformation types?

 

I mean, it's a great idea and all, though I favor doing away with that mechanic. Still.

 

 

I like that - much more balanced and Hero-consistent:

 

Any transform has to do Body 'damage' to work, and that allows a cosmetic change of part of the target (a limb, for example).

 

+10 for the whole target

+10 for a minor transform

+20 for a major transform

 

(so a major transform of a whole target is Body+30 'damage').

 

Kudos and rep when I'm able.

[Utech]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

It IS the same as a heavily advantaged EB - and if you were going to build such a heavily advantaged EB then you would synergise the rest of the build too.

I disagree. It clearly isn't. But for the sake of argument, let's accept that and move on to the next thing you wrote:

Take a force wall (you have an attack that goes straight through it. Take decent movement so you can maintain range. Take an N-Ray telescopic targeting sense' date=' all of which are justifiable under a mental powers suite.[/quote']

You can do all of those things with a heavily advantaged EB. If, that is, your GM allows you to do so.

 

I've never been in a game that would allow shenanigans like that. But others may enjoy such a thing. To each his own.

 

Just because people have not always realised the potential of the power does not mean it is not there.

I imagine you could say the same about any Power. They're all subject to abuse. I've never found Ego Blast to be more of a problem than any other. I have found it balanced and quite its own entity -- not a heavily advantaged Energy Blast.

 

I have a name for players who insist on the sort of unbalancing synergies you mention: ex-player.

[Marcus]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I think the thing with Ego Attack is that -every- Champions GM and Player of any experience KNOWS how broken it is, so what it tends to be used as in play, and what any mentalist player that wants to keep playing USES it as, is essentially an AVLD Energy Blast does no knockback.

 

You just CANT use Ego Attack 'to its full extent' on a champions map, because its utterly broken if you do so. Tunneling Mentalists. Telescopic Mentalists. Shrinking Mentalists (Im looking at YOU, Hummingbird!). Mindscan and win without ever leaving your base Mentalists.

 

None of this makes Ego Attack 'appropriate' as built... its a hideous pile of 'free' advantages. (Now, the fact that some of those advantages, most notably AVLD and Invisible, are grossly overpriced). The flip side is that players are not allowed to actually use those advantages (when was the last time the LOS Invisible Indirect nature of Ego Attack really got used in play? See conversation above).

 

Id be happy rebuilding "ego attack" as an Energy Blast, limited to only the advantages that a sane GM allows the player to use. Say IPE for SFX (Can still tell the mentalist is 'thinking'), Indirect, maybe Affects Desolid and of course ego targeted, vs. mental defense, no knockback, no bounce. Note even the ABOVE is a bit over the cost of the current Ego Attack...

 

The above describes how GMs will tend to 'let' ego attack work. Ego Attack as presented in 5th Ed belongs on Margarita Man, and the GM/Players just have to not use it that way.

 

A power should be as cool as its cost, not three times that cool but with the last 2/3rds of its utility unused.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I disagree. It clearly isn't. But for the sake of argument' date=' let's accept that and move on to the next thing you wrote:[/quote']

 

Armour and force field are classic examples of similar powers that exist in the system because, whilst you can't really build one with the other (you can make armour work like force field at a similar cost, but not the other way around) they are close enough in utility and, more importantly, the more expensive one, armour, is the 'correct' build (it costs the same as pd or ed + damage resistance) and force field is cheaper but considerably inferior in every respect except active cost and the ability to use it in ECs.

 

They are close enough in cost/utility that you they create no problems, and the cheaper one is a cut down of the more expensive one.

 

You are right that it isn't an advantaged EB, but what I'm saying is that we can use an EB advantaged to match the build of an Ego Attack to see if the system is robust. It does not appear to be.

 

You can do all of those things with a heavily advantaged EB. If, that is, your GM allows you to do so.

 

I've never been in a game that would allow shenanigans like that. But others may enjoy such a thing. To each his own.

 

All these things are what the power can officially do. Sure, if someone builds any heavily advantaged power I look it over very carefully. +2 or more in advantages and you'd best have a very good explanation as to why it is necessary.

 

Ego Attack slips under the radar though becasue it can do all that - officially - and doesn't even have a price tag to match. I mean it is hardly a stretch to buy an ego attack and a mindsense that ignores non-mental barriers. Whilst you can justifyably pick someone up for building something undesiereable with the toolset I think you are on a stickier wicket denying enhanced senses or force walls to people with ego attack.

 

I imagine you could say the same about any Power. They're all subject to abuse. I've never found Ego Blast to be more of a problem than any other. I have found it balanced and quite its own entity -- not a heavily advantaged Energy Blast.

 

I have a name for players who insist on the sort of unbalancing synergies you mention: ex-player.

 

I'm not sure you can say the same about any power. Energy blast, for example, is pretty unabuseable. You can play a blaster efficiently and well - taking advantage of range and cover - but it never becomes abusive to do so.

 

Ultimately it leads to the question; why have it at all if you are not going to be able to use it? I think Marcus sums up what I wish I'd said very nicely

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Add the Does Body (+1) advantage. Now how does the price compare to an advantaged Energy Blast?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Mental Powers are deemed to be "something special". They work differently than other Powers, by virtue of having a certain special effect built in. Frankly, they ought not to work differently. We've always heard about Mr. Telescopic Cocoon Mentalist Sniper, but the fact that he (even in theory) exists means we really need to take a closer look at Mental Powers.

 

What's really so special about Mental Powers that they have to work LOS with no Range Modifier or maximum range, be Invisible and provide Mental Awareness? There's plenty of source where one or more of those conditions don't exist as setting defaults. (Or, more to the point, there's plenty of source where all of those conditions don't exist as setting defaults.)

[BNakagawa]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Sean,

 

You seem to be arguing that Ego Blast is horribly unbalanced. I have not experienced that in any game I've ever been a part of. Have you?

 

In my experience, Ego Blast is priced just right. It is not Energy Blast with a number of Advantages and Limitations tacked on -- no more than an elephant is a horse with a trunk tacked on. It is an entirely different beast.

 

It has been my experience that the majority of the time, Ego Attack is the most cost-effective attack available. (up to a point)

 

In almost any team vs. team fight, there will be at least one member of the opposite side with no or low mental defenses and an average or lower EGO. These targets typically have good defenses otherwise, so getting to nail them for 15-21 damage per shot with a 95% or better hit probability is pretty damn productive. Especially if you compare it to generating maybe 10-15 damage per hit with about a 63% hit probability.

 

On the other side of the equation, because most targets have a pretty much autohit Ego DCV, this allows you to put any available levels on DCV, which make a big difference in your survivability when return fire comes your way. Also, the attacks are LOS with no range mod penalties, so either they have to be very mobile or have compensating range PSLs or no range mod attacks of their own in order to really threaten you when you start the engagement from a football field away.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Add the Does Body (+1) advantage. Now how does the price compare to an advantaged Energy Blast?

 

A nice point neatly made: Does Body does something odd to an ego blast - it makes it a damaging power, not just a stunning one. For many targets, without mental defence (and that includes most inanimate targets) it is extremely dangerous. The cost doubles...but that doesn't actually make it more like an EB. In practice most EBs rarely do Body damage to PCs and NPCs and most inanimate objects at least have some defence against them.

 

Now cf an AVLD EB that does Body: 5 points with 2 1/2 in advantages, or 12 1/2 points per 1d6... but it is still visible, range limited, doesn't affect desolid and isn't indirect. Add all that in and you get another +2 1/2, so the cost would be 30 points per 1d6 (a total of +5 in advantages).

 

Add in 0 END too and we are up to 25 for EA, and 32 for EB...the more advantages you add the closer they get in cost...but I doubt you could really add enough to make them work the same and have an allowable power.

 

You'd need +3 in advantages to the (already advantaged) EB and the EA to make the cost balance (as EA = EB plus AVLD, LOS, No RM, IPE, Indirect and Affects Desolid for +4)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

That doesn't jive with my perspective on it. Like I said earlier, if we are going to forget about BoECV because it's simply an attack with a different basis, then I believe we should drop AVLD (and thus Does Body for the EB) for the same reason. Remember that the Ego Attack is STILL not going to work against something without an Ego score or of a different Class of Minds, and it's not going to do Knockback (EDIT: oops; not that one; realized Does Body adds Knockback also). Neglecting those things for the moment, best I can tell a fair comparison of "equivalent" powers comes to:

Energy Blast: 1d6, 5 points

Affects Desolidified (+1/2)

Indirect: any location, any direction (+3/4)

Invisible Power Effects: invisible to one Targeting and one Non-Targetting sense group (+3/4)

Range: Line of Sight (+1/2)

[17.5 Active]

Versus:

Ego Attack: 1d6, 10 points

Does Body (+1)

[20 Active]

which looks awfully close as far as I'm concerned. We could mess with the other piddly little details like I mentioned above, but I think it covers the main stuff.

 

(Also note that the Line of Sight range advantage covers No Range Modifier already; see 5ER p. 266.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Your EB is resisted by PD or ED, which is much more common than Mental Defense. Adding AVLD will make the EB more costly.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

Your EB is resisted by PD or ED' date=' which is much more common than Mental Defense. Adding AVLD will make the EB more costly.[/quote']

 

Well, that's my take. I've explained why I don't think AVLD is necessary for the comparison. And the above build confirms to me that while there are a few places in the system I think we could be worrying about point balance, IMO Ego Attack really isn't one of them. This is a fun and valuable discussion though, with a lot of thoughtful arguments.

[Beast]

Re: Blasting Mental Blast

 

I'll give you indirect

but not from any direction(appears at any range same direction as attacker)

also it is not invisible to the target

target knows who did it and in what direction it came from

it is also limited in what targets it can effect

why not figure those in to your calculations also

 

like I said earlier some of the advantages may be wrong in cost but the powers cost is fine

 

 

 

you guy need to debate this from the other end

not that mental powers are broken ,but that some advantages cost too much

I do not see mentalist running roughshod on the game so your arguments really hold very little water except that some advantages are overpriced

 

 

That doesn't jive with my perspective on it. Like I said earlier' date=' if we are going to forget about BoECV because it's simply an attack with a different basis, then I believe we should drop AVLD (and thus Does Body for the EB) for the same reason. Remember that the Ego Attack is STILL not going to work against something without an Ego score or of a different Class of Minds, and it's not going to do Knockback (EDIT: oops; not that one; realized Does Body adds Knockback also). Neglecting those things for the moment, best I can tell a fair comparison of "equivalent" powers comes to:

Energy Blast: 1d6, 5 points

Affects Desolidified (+1/2)

Indirect: any location, any direction (+3/4)

Invisible Power Effects: invisible to one Targeting and one Non-Targetting sense group (+3/4)

Range: Line of Sight (+1/2)

[17.5 Active]

Versus:

Ego Attack: 1d6, 10 points

Does Body (+1)

[20 Active]

which looks awfully close as far as I'm concerned. We could mess with the other piddly little details like I mentioned above, but I think it covers the main stuff.

 

(Also note that the Line of Sight range advantage covers No Range Modifier already; see 5ER p. 266.)