Sword Oriented Martial Art

[clsage]

Before I reinvent the wheel, and in case I am just missing an existing write up, I thought I'd ask here:

 

Awhile ago, I saw a demo of a martial art which used "all parts" of a sword as its weapon element. That is, it has the wielder grasping the sword on both the hilt and lower blade and using it much like a spear to stab an opponent, grasping the blade with both hands and using the hilt as a blunt object to club the opponent, etc. The footage I saw was on an episode of the History Channel series "Modern Marvels" dealing with the subject of swords.

 

As said previously, if there is an existing MA already that has the above mentioned maneuvers, etc I'd really appreciate any pointers to it. Failing that I'm currently planning on taking basic swordsmanship and adding in the maneuvers I can recall. Once I have a basic version I'll post it here for review.....

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-Carl-

[Vulcan]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

One of the nice things about the HERO System's martial arts is that they can be used to simulate just about everything.

 

Fencing has been published in the Ultimate Martial Artist (p.24-26), along with Kenjustsu (p.35-37) and the more general 'Weapons Combat' (p.59-60).

 

However, making your own martial art is pretty easy. For an armed combat style, the default weapon group becomes 'sword' (and based on your description you're talking about either a battle sword - colloquilally known as a bastard sword - or a greatsword).

 

The maneuver you describe (using the leading hand to grab the sword at the ricasso and stab) sounds like a Defensive Strike - sacrificing power for accuracy, and a stab threatens a longer range than a slash which translates into a higher DCV pretty well.

 

Grabbing the blade and swinging the pommel at the opponent is of limited use, but with the right power build you could take advantage of a feature sometimes seen on battle swords - a crossguard that tapers down into a very narrow, almost pointed end. This can be (and occasionally was) used as an improvised warhammer or pick.

 

The classic movie 'high guard into downward strike' makes a good Sacrifice Strike - high guard leaves you open to being stabbed, or even slashed by a faster weapon/opponent. And the good ole' 'swing for the rafters' slash could be an Offensive Strike.

 

Out of curiousity, are you the GM making this for your players, or a player hoping to get GM approval for this?

[culhwch]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

I think the sword martial art in Fantasy Hero bought the clubs weapon element to simulate using the pommel as a weapon.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Before I reinvent the wheel, and in case I am just missing an existing write up, I thought I'd ask here:

 

Awhile ago, I saw a demo of a martial art which used "all parts" of a sword as its weapon element. That is, it has the wielder grasping the sword on both the hilt and lower blade and using it much like a spear to stab an opponent, grasping the blade with both hands and using the hilt as a blunt object to club the opponent, etc. The footage I saw was on an episode of the History Channel series "Modern Marvels" dealing with the subject of swords.

 

As said previously, if there is an existing MA already that has the above mentioned maneuvers, etc I'd really appreciate any pointers to it. Failing that I'm currently planning on taking basic swordsmanship and adding in the maneuvers I can recall. Once I have a basic version I'll post it here for review.....

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-Carl-

 

Swordfighting on page 91 of Fantasy Hero is essentially exactly the style you're asking about... it includes half-sword & clubbing techniques.

 

A couple of my old fight partners both run schools based on the styles featured in that show, and the FH write-up is pretty close

[clsage]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Out of curiousity, are you the GM making this for your players, or a player hoping to get GM approval for this?

 

A bit of both....I'm considering building a new FH character (or perhaps adapting the existing one I have....not yet certain which ) AND I am also a GM and am polishing my skill levels when it comes to MA fabrication. I've built a couple previously (one is a brawling MA and the other a sort of Akido/Krav Maga cross...).

 

-Carl-

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

If you're grasping the blade, do you need gloves?

 

This reminds me to ask just how sharp the typical sword is. A razor-like edge wouldn't last very long, especially against armored opponents, but you still need "bite" to penetrate that armor.

[clsage]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Swordfighting on page 91 of Fantasy Hero is essentially exactly the style you're asking about... it includes half-sword & clubbing techniques.

 

A couple of my old fight partners both run schools based on the styles featured in that show, and the FH write-up is pretty close

 

Thanks !

 

And, funnily enough, as I just walked in from work and turned on the History Channel, what should be on but the episode in question.

 

-Carl-

[clsage]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

If you're grasping the blade, do you need gloves?

 

I am assuming so....The demo's shown in the episode in question have the wielders wearing leather gauntlets.

 

 

This reminds me to ask just how sharp the typical sword is. A razor-like edge wouldn't last very long, especially against armored opponents, but you still need "bite" to penetrate that armor.

 

Hmmmmm. Yeah, I suspect a razor edge is impractical. But I don't have hard evidence at hand as to the optimal sharpness level a combatant would want.

 

-Carl-

[mikesama]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

If you're grasping the blade, do you need gloves?

 

This reminds me to ask just how sharp the typical sword is. A razor-like edge wouldn't last very long, especially against armored opponents, but you still need "bite" to penetrate that armor.

 

Do you need gloves, yes and no the first third of the blade is sharp no more, that edge you want is only needed up on the foible of the blade. However after any kind of fighting there will be burrs and nicks in the blade which are just as capable of opening up your hand. A good pair of leather gloves would do nicely for protecting the inside of your hand. As far as actual sharpness for a western blade you have more than a butter knight but razor sharp is just begging for you to ruin the edge in your first swing, so the short answer is about that of a table knife.

[mikesama]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Oh Clsage, don't forget to add some wrestling elements to the form as things like dropping people on their heads works even better when they're wearing an extra 70 pounds of mass.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

I was amused to think of adventurers in plate armor, given how difficult it is to don the stuff. I can see it in a battle between armies, where you have squires and other support personnel to put your armor on you, but going into a dungeon or out into the woods? Not very practical.

[Susano]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

MARTIAL ARTS IN MEDIEVAL EUROPE

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/medievalma.html

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

I was amused to think of adventurers in plate armor' date=' given how difficult it is to don the stuff. I can see it in a battle between armies, where you have squires and other support personnel to put your armor on you, but going into a dungeon or out into the woods? Not very practical.[/quote']

 

To a certain extent I agree, but having actually worn & fought in plate I can say it's not quite the PITA one might expect. Full coverage field plate can be tricky, but even it's not impossible. One buddy to help with buckles MIGHT be required (and ALWAYS helps speed things up), but in general footman's plate can be donned solo if needs must. The stuff I wore most often went on in a few fairly easy steps....

1) The legs were together on a belt (sort of like a garter belt, to tell the truth). Pull 'em up like pants, belt at waist, fasten the thighs and calves shut.

 

2) Curiass with attached tassets goes over the head like a clamshell, fasten shut at waist.

 

3) Arms were pre-attached to the gorget. Arms up and in like a tight sweater over the head, close gorget, close forearms & upper arms.

 

4) Pull on gauntlets

 

5) Finish with helm

 

About 5 minutes work arming up, on the average and not rushing

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/CompositePackages/Bladesman.aspx

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/CompositePackages/SwashbucklerSwordsman.aspx

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberCharacters_Archetypes_Scrapper_NuBushi.aspx

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

having helped folks armor up in the SCA over the years, I have trouble seeing wearing full plate or anything for very long, now a chain and plate mix or heavy chain would be different. this also doesnt take into effect a fantasy campaign where magic armor is in use, it might be designed to put on/take off faster.

 

D&D has magic armor being unencumbering etc, but how does this affect time to put on or take off?

[jtelson]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

D&D has magic armor being unencumbering etc, but how does this affect time to put on or take off?

 

There are some magical effects that allow you to instantly don or remove armor but there's nothing inherent about magical armor that makes it easier to put on or take off.

[Markdoc]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

If you're grasping the blade, do you need gloves?

 

This reminds me to ask just how sharp the typical sword is. A razor-like edge wouldn't last very long, especially against armored opponents, but you still need "bite" to penetrate that armor.

 

A lightly longer answer than that given is ... it depends.

 

The larger (two handed) swords that typically were shortened by grasping the "blade" actually had a non-edged portion for this (usually called a Ricasso or, more correctly an extended Ricasso) which was often bound in leather for a better grip and also often protected by two protrusions like a miniature hilt (lots of different names but often called Flukes). The bluntness and leather wrapping meant that you didn't need gloves to use them "shortened" - in fact most pictures we have from the era showing them in use do not show any kind of hand protection. Only the top 1/2 to 2/3rds of the blade was sharpened. But it was sharp. It was intended not only for cutting flesh, but also for cutting wood - pikeshafts, specifically - and you can't do that too well with a blunt blade

 

Note, not all two handed swords - and certainly not all swords - could be used to do this. Most European swords had a tiny ricasso and if you gripped the blade to strike, you'd end up losing some fingers, leather gauntlets notwithstanding.

 

As for sharpness, yes, swords had a sharp edge. European swords (especially later knightly ones) tended to to have a fairly thick flattened diamond or triangular cross section and were relatively rigid. If fighting an armoured foe, the goal was not to whale away on his armour (note - the really big two handers are a bit of an exception to this...) but stick the sharp pointy end somewhere soft (ie: in a gap in the armour: the increasing difficulty of finding gaps as armour improved explains the popularity of secondary weapons like maces or picks designed to make holes or big dents in armour). However, if you did have to just strike, the construction of the blade meant that you might ruin the edge a bit where you hit, but you really had to try hard to to break your blade. On the other hand, on most battle fields there were plenty of foes with unarmoured bits and a a sharp blade would let you make what's called a "drawing cut" which will create a far deeper and deadlier wound than just hitting your target. Using a sword well requires a fair deal of skill.....

 

At the extreme end of the scale, swords like the Katana really were buffed to razor sharpness. Emphasis was on the drawing cut or the thrust and striking the armour was really not a great idea - 14th-16th century Japanese literature is full of accounts of samurai striking an armoured opponent and breaking their sword blade in half: some samurai carried two or even three swords into battle on the assumption that one would break. OTOH, the japanese battlefield featured even less armour than its European counterpart, so you could usually count on somewhere soft to stick your sword.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Edit: it's worth noting that the big twohanded swords with extended ricasso mentioned above are renaissance weapons - as far as we know, there was nothing equivalent in medieval times and all the medieval twohanders I have seen are sharpened almost all the way down to the hilt: you can't "shorten" those weapons. Also, gamers tend to assume that sort of sword was much more common than seems to have been the case, but that's because there are so many in museums - many of which were parade or decoration swords not intended for battle use, which is why they survived.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Markdoc for president?

 

As always, love the details you deliver.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

A lightly longer answer than that given is ... it depends.

 

The larger (two handed) swords that typically were shortened by grasping the "blade" actually had a non-edged portion for this (usually called a Ricasso or, more correctly an extended Ricasso) which was often bound in leather for a better grip and also often protected by two protrusions like a miniature hilt (lots of different names but often called Flukes). The bluntness and leather wrapping meant that you didn't need gloves to use them "shortened" - in fact most pictures we have from the era showing them in use do not show any kind of hand protection. Only the top 1/2 to 2/3rds of the blade was sharpened. But it was sharp. It was intended not only for cutting flesh, but also for cutting wood - pikeshafts, specifically - and you can't do that too well with a blunt blade

 

Note, not all two handed swords - and certainly not all swords - could be used to do this. Most European swords had a tiny ricasso and if you gripped the blade to strike, you'd end up losing some fingers, leather gauntlets notwithstanding.

 

As for sharpness, yes, swords had a sharp edge. European swords (especially later knightly ones) tended to to have a fairly thick flattened diamond or triangular cross section and were relatively rigid. If fighting an armoured foe, the goal was not to whale away on his armour (note - the really big two handers are a bit of an exception to this...) but stick the sharp pointy end somewhere soft (ie: in a gap in the armour: the increasing difficulty of finding gaps as armour improved explains the popularity of secondary weapons like maces or picks designed to make holes or big dents in armour). However, if you did have to just strike, the construction of the blade meant that you might ruin the edge a bit where you hit, but you really had to try hard to to break your blade. On the other hand, on most battle fields there were plenty of foes with unarmoured bits and a a sharp blade would let you make what's called a "drawing cut" which will create a far deeper and deadlier wound than just hitting your target. Using a sword well requires a fair deal of skill.....

 

At the extreme end of the scale, swords like the Katana really were buffed to razor sharpness. Emphasis was on the drawing cut or the thrust and striking the armour was really not a great idea - 14th-16th century Japanese literature is full of accounts of samurai striking an armoured opponent and breaking their sword blade in half: some samurai carried two or even three swords into battle on the assumption that one would break. OTOH, the japanese battlefield featured even less armour than its European counterpart, so you could usually count on somewhere soft to stick your sword.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Edit: it's worth noting that the big twohanded swords with extended ricasso mentioned above are renaissance weapons - as far as we know, there was nothing equivalent in medieval times and all the medieval twohanders I have seen are sharpened almost all the way down to the hilt: you can't "shorten" those weapons. Also, gamers tend to assume that sort of sword was much more common than seems to have been the case, but that's because there are so many in museums - many of which were parade or decoration swords not intended for battle use, which is why they survived.

 

I've fought with a variety of both types of greatswords, and you sum it up well. I have noticed a lot of blade grips among renaissance era martial techniques. They also seem to favor leather gauntlets as hand protection.

 

Shifting grip from a traditional two handed grip to half sword is not without risk... I punched the fluke of my claymore straight through my palm one time executing a hard block (I have had "claymores" both with and without wrapped riccasso and/or flukes).

 

Cutting pikeheads is HARD!

Zwiehandler style 2 handers aren't my specialty, but after we acquired a couple we hauled out some old perimeter poles that were awaiting firewood duty and did our best to test out the whole "hacking off pikeheads" bit. 'S hard, man. Not, however impossible, and you can maul the hell out of a formation even if you don't snap off a single head.

 

We practiced that move with axes, too

[Markdoc]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Cutting pikeheads is HARD!

Zwiehandler style 2 handers aren't my specialty, but after we acquired a couple we hauled out some old perimeter poles that were awaiting firewood duty and did our best to test out the whole "hacking off pikeheads" bit. 'S hard, man. Not, however impossible, and you can maul the hell out of a formation even if you don't snap off a single head.

 

We practiced that move with axes, too

 

Yep - the swiss used axes and halberds for the task. Also the German swordsmen who perfected the "hack your way into the pike block" technique were:

a) professionals who did that for a living: they received double pay, promotion privileges and were called Doppelsoldners ("double soldiers").

really big guys

c) crazy

d) usually dead before their mid-20's

 

But then, no-one told them it would be easy

 

Edit - as an aside, the technique soon fell out of favour: too many men got killed trying it, and having some looney at the front, waving a really big sword got in your own pikemen's way. After a few decades of glory, the Doppelsoldner was first abandoned and then outlawed by drillmasters and all those two handed swords became wall decorations - another reason there's so many of the damn things around. In contrast, the spanish Rodeleros (sword and buckler men) who did the same job, but with a light shield and stabbing sword lasted almost a century before being dropped. It turned out the best way to disorder an enemy pikeblock was to get a couple of dozen guys with harquebuses to shoot into it at close range

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

Yep - the swiss used axes and halberds for the task. Also the German swordsmen who perfected the "hack your way into the pike block" technique were:

a) professionals who did that for a living: they received double pay, promotion privileges and were called Doppelsoldners ("double soldiers").

really big guys

c) crazy

d) usually dead before their mid-20's

 

But then, no-one told them it would be easy

 

Edit - as an aside, the technique soon fell out of favour: too many men got killed trying it, and having some looney at the front, waving a really big sword got in your own pikemen's way. After a few decades of glory, the Doppelsoldner was first abandoned and then outlawed by drillmasters and all those two handed swords became wall decorations - another reason there's so many of the damn things around. In contrast, the spanish Rodeleros (sword and buckler men) who did the same job, but with a light shield and stabbing sword lasted almost a century before being dropped. It turned out the best way to disorder an enemy pikeblock was to get a couple of dozen guys with harquebuses to shoot into it at close range

 

cheers, Mark

 

Yep, can't study Ren period military history without hitting all those bits. My Gallowglaigh fulfilled the same "forlorn hope" role leading the Scottish schiltrons against mixed formations of English billmen, Landsknecht pikemen & mixed shot. We spent a lot of time hanging out with our German counterparts. While the Doppelsoldner and his arse big sword was always fun to engage, I have learned a deep abiding respect for both the katzbalger and dusaks as brutally efficient back up weapons.

 

I have to say... even in fairly heavy armor and doing it for an audience rather than for blood, it still takes work to convince yourself to charge a bloody pikesquare, especially if you've seen a full speed "front rank to sidearms" drill.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

That's why I prefer to play a magic user in rpgs. Among other good reasons, any sort of close formation is just fodder for a fireball....

[Susano]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

I wish the SCA had allowed spears and the like to be 12' or so and not just 9'. Also, face thrusts would have helped in making a viable SCA pike block.

[Markdoc]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

I wish the SCA had allowed spears and the like to be 12' or so and not just 9'. Also' date=' face thrusts would have helped in making a viable SCA pike block.[/quote']

 

True - but the first time one of those pikes lost its thrusting tip and the wood went through someone's face protection, you'd be looking at hospital time. And if you're separated from the target by another rank of people leaping about, you might not even notice until it's happened. I can see why they made the decision they did.

 

I mentioned when we talked about this before, I tend to regard SCA combat as its own style of martial art, like Kendo. In both cases, even a highly skilled practitioner of either art would die like a dog if thrust into a battlefield situation: they are training for a different purpose and their muscle memory and reflexes are honed for that purpose.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bismark]

Re: Sword Oriented Martial Art

 

I suppose this would be an opportune time to plug http://www.thearma.org again; the ARMA (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) has some very useful info in there about weapon lengths/weights etc., including those lovely 2-handers (complete with an explanation that 'zweihander' is in incorrect term for them).

 

[There is also a wonderfully geeky article on that site about the stresses and strains - in the 'proper' physics sense of those words - put on a sword when it strikes something.]

 

I have seen a quality re-enactment bill unit (about 20 strong); these guys (and girls) like to seriously get stuck into their opponents and have somewhat less restrictions than the SCA (until recently at least, the UK scene was an awful lot less litigious and bothered about health and safety than the US equivalent).

 

The best part was when they got out some padded weapons and turned up a to a LARP session, much to the amusement of us history geeks who loved watching the 'pure' LARPers get absolutely pwned by said bill unit .

 

One of the re-enactors I know thought that medieval re-enactment was too 'soft' and safe () so he started a Classical Greek re-enactment group (gotta love those Greek helmets with virtually no padding inside them at all -time to grow that hair long and bunch it up under the helm boys).