Can you see where I'm coming from?

[Sean Waters]

I was a TINY bit rude abou the current visibility of powers rules in a recent thread, and I'm a great believer that if you don't like something, you should be able to offer an alternative. Here's mine. Feel free to be rude . Sorry it is a long post, but, well, it is.

 

One of the many areas of Hero I struggle with, bless me, is the visibility of powers. The rules say something like this. All powers that use END are visible to 3 senses including a targeting sense (usually sight) and at least one other common sense (usually hearing). Sounds clear, but implementation is problematic in some cases, for instance, if you are shooting a gun at someone it is usually pretty obvious that you are doing so if you are close by, but if it is a distance shot it is far less obvious: the sight visibility is provided by the source of the power with the gun - the pointing of the black tube of death, the muzzle flash (maybe, in a high-contrast environment) and the smoke.

 

At a distance you might still hear the report but, unless you were looking in the right direction, you are unlikely to spot the visual clues.

 

Moreover the rules do not specify what effect visibility has exactly - does it draw the attention to an active power, or does it merely allow you to draw the obvious conclusion if you are looking in the right direction. An example might be that you could build a 2d6 HKA as a plain dagger - only really visible because you can see it, but not likely to actually be able to draw attention - it makes no noise or such - or, on the other hand, a flaming dagger, which crackles and glows would tend to draw attention, yet they are both (generally) considered the same level of visibility.

 

Also, invisible power effects costs way too much, generally. Wana-hoo-ne-ay too much. I’m sure you can all come up with instances where having an invisible power effect is absolutely the knees of the bees, or the dogs chew-toy, but generally, for a game that is largely combat balanced, it is not worth spending full points on (by which I mean you might buy it as a slot in a MP but you are going to have a full-power visible slot too).

 

Finally, the visibility rules are oddly regimented; why 3 senses? I can understand the idea of sight, hearing and another, but it is an arbitrary decision, and whilst you have to make arbitrary decisions to an extent, I’m not sure it is entirely necessary here, or if it is, that this is the best way to do it.

 

The basic point of visibility rules is this: it is obvious that a power is in use and who is using it. If we start with that basic premise then we need say little more: whatever the sfx of the power they WILL draw attention to the use of the power.

 

OK, but is that all? What about the gun, or the knife: the source sfx can be disguised by distance, whereas effect sfx (say it is a plasma rifle with a glowing bolt) will show the entire path of the attack, and distance will be all but irrelevant. With the knife, you can hide it up your sleeve, concealing it, or, if you are really good at sleight of hand, you may even be able to use it without anyone (except probably the stabee) noticing.

 

In addition, all powers are visible to the extent that their results can be seen: if someone has ‘invisible’ defences and they get hit with an attack, you KNOW they have defences because they don’t burst like a ripe melon. Some people, however, want a character who DOES look like the attack has affected them – what do we do about that?

 

Finally a person who is attacked can usually tell if they are being attacked, even if no one else can – can and should we make the attack results invisible?

 

If we start with the assumption that every power that does not cost END is invisible to the extent that it can only be detected by its results and that every power that does cost END is detectable to the extent that the source of the power is visible under observation, we have somewhere to start from.

 

INVISIBLE POWERS

 

I’d suggest the basic position for invisible powers is that they should be detectable by their effects AND by some method related to their sfx. For instance if you have 3 points of armour because you have trained your body to the point where it is as hard as aluminium, (you’ve bought 3 points of armour) then it should be obvious to anyone looking at you naked that you are very fit (not that you have 3 points of armour) AND if you get stabbed, it will be obvious that at least some of the damage has been deflected. If your armour is magical in nature then you probably show up on a detect magic when you are suing it – and so on.

 

If you do not want your invisible power to be detectable by base sfx, you can take a +1/4 advantage. If you want the power to be undetectable by effect, you need to buy IMAGES or MENTAL ILLUSIONS or some such to make it look as if the effect is different from what it is (NB This is a GM call if, for instance, you have armour (the power) and the sfx is that you get damaged but instantly heal/recover/regenerate, that is probably enough to indicate you have an operational defensive power – so long as you are not really fooling anyone. If you want to look smashed up without it being obvious that you are actually fine – buy a sense affecting power)

 

NB as a general exception to the rule that END = VISIBLE, all non-attack sense-affecting powers are considered invisible powers.

 

VISIBLE POWERS

 

I’d suggest the basic position is that it should be obvious to the majority of observers that a power source is in use, and the sfx should give a strong indication of the category of power in use (attack power, for instance, or defence power or Body-affecting power) although the specifics of how that operates is up to you. If you have an attack that involves a gas, for example, you might decide that the attack is not visible to sight as the gas is transparent, but the discharge causes a loud hiss and the gas smells strongly – anyone nearby will know who let that one off.

 

The visibility of the power gives no clue as to what the power IS, directly, although that may be obvious from context: if you have visible defences then it is not going to be obvious whether they were built as a force field, armour, damage reduction or something else. You will, however, under observation, clearly have some sort of defence, be it a suit of armour, rocky skin or a glowing aura of invincibility.

 

Note that there is absolutely NOTHING preventing someone using the IMAGES power to SIMULATE having another power operating.

 

Generally visible sfx are ONLY visible in the phase in which they are used, absent scientific testing. If a power’s sfx linger that may be worth a -1/4 limitation, but generally only if the effects linger for at least a full turn and are able to identify they attacker, but again that is a judgement call. If a power leave NO trace at all after use, to any detect or test that is worth a +1/4 advantage. Generally even a passive weapon, like a knife, can be detected after use by forensic tests, so this will rarely be necessary in practice, but it is there to cater for possible concept builds.

 

If a power draws attention in use then that is worth a -1/4 limitation. For example a knife will be noticed in use but generally does not draw attention unless the wielder is doing something flash, a gun, however, generally draws attention from nearby observers when used.

 

In addition ‘normally visible’ powers can often be rendered effectively invisible by a successful stealth roll, or by the right circumstances whereas attacks that draw attention generally can not be so disguised.

 

A power that can be detected at a distance is worth a -1/4 limitation. A plasma rifle that is obvious both at source and all along the line of attack would qualify whereas a bullet from a rifle wouldn’t – you can’t often tell where a bullet has come from (cf JFK) at a distance, even if it might be obvious (from the gunshot) that a shot has been fired.

 

A visible power can be rendered invisible for a +1/2 advantage if it is an attack power or a power that requires an attack roll, or +1/4 if it is another sort of power – then you use the rules as if it were an INVISIBLE POWER, above.

 

Generally a power’s effects are obvious – the target of an attack power usually shows visible signs of having taken damage. For +1/4 you can negate the obvious signs of damage short of death/destruction (which is always obvious unless you buy a linked IMAGES to make it look otherwise).

 

Finally the target of an attack should always be aware that they are under attack even if they can not identify the source of the attack. As a STOP advantage the GM can allow a power’s effects on a target to be undetectable by the target for +1/2.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Any particular reason this wasn't prefixed as a "House Rule" or posted to the appropriate 6th edition thread?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Any particular reason this wasn't prefixed as a "House Rule" or posted to the appropriate 6th edition thread?

 

I hardly ever use prefixes as they are not, as far as I know, required, and I'm not suggesting it as a sixth edition rule. I'm still playing 5th.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Also I don't particularly like the way the 6th edition forums work. You post in a broad category thread and can easily lose discussions on particular topics, which I find quite frustrating. If I post here and we discuss the matter and anyone wants to they can cross post any conclusions to the other forum. If no one bothers or the response is not positive then I won't have cluttered further an already cluttered forum.

 

On top of that it now takes an age to actually scan through those forums to find out if you are just repeating something that has already been discussed, and I know this forum well enough to be have a good idea if the topic has been discussed before.

[Kenn]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

In my 21 years with the system, I have found that worrying overly much about the three sense special effect wasn't worth the time or effort.

 

Basically, we just play that the use of powers is generally detectable. Almost always by sight. Any other sense groups we just let common sense guide us. Sonic powers can be heard. The use of heat/fire or electricity can be felt, even if one isn't the target.

 

And we have a mage whose magical energy stinks.

 

But we don't take the time to make sure there are three. If there are, great. If not... oh well.

[Vondy]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Any particular reason this wasn't prefixed as a "House Rule" or posted to the appropriate 6th edition thread?

 

I was unaware there was an obligation to use prefixes, or that discussions of rules or possible fixes were to be invariably routed to the 6th edition fora.

[Vondy]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

I was a TINY bit rude abou.... /snippage

 

I've always regarded the current paradigm for power visibility as arbitrary and a legacy kludge that needs to go the way of the dodo. We have always adjudicated whether or not a power is visible, and how it is visible, based on SFX. Thus, Invisible Power Effects, was only applicable if it obscured an intuitive, conceptually driven method of power detection, with the value being based on how broad the potential methods of detecting the power were in the first place.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

I think part of your issue is that the book doesn't say anything about what senses it has to be perceivable by. It says "usually Sight and Hearing" since those are the sense groups most common to Normal People.

 

I think the issue simply comes from over thinking it, and not just you I've been in games where the 3 Sense Groups has almost taken over the use of powers and essentially destroyed verisimilitude.

 

I think all we need to do is define: What the SFX are if someone is looking at you. What the Effects look like after it has affected something.

 

I like the idea of choosing an Obvious and Non-Obvious method of detection. Say, Sight and Radio for Cosmic Beam. Obvious should be something a Normal can detect (See it, odd smell, hearing it) or Non-Obvious should be a sense they lack (acts in the IR spectrum, radio interference, etc).

 

The 3 Sense Rule can be a major pain in the butt.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

To be clear about the problems I have in practice with power visibility, I'm able well enough to deal with it in 99% of cases, but it does come up when, for instance, someone has a glowing force field and they are trying to sneak up on someone in a darkened area - you'd think that walking round with a light source in the dark would make it pretty obvious you were there - but whether it does or not is a judgement call. Indeed, could the character have legitimately bought the power with the 'noisy' limitation (or whatever it is called)?

 

The propblem is I may not adjudicate the same way twice in a row because it does not come up that often. Maybe that is just the fault of my failing memory.

 

Of slightly more concern is the fact that 'IPE' is so expensive for what it does, and that tends to penalise the player who builds a character to concept. Most of the time having invisible powers simply does not justify the expense of a +1 advantage.

 

I think that a slightly different approach to visibility could make things easier all around.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

I think the IPE Advantage stepped wrong, it should stop at +3/4 and I'm not sure +1/2 isn't more justified, but since it's trying to eliminate 3 Sense Groups it has to have 3 steps.

 

As for your glowing FF issues, first adjudicating it differently isn't all that bad. It's a Visible Power, so it should increase ambient light in it's immediate area, so yes in a pitch black room it probably is going to stick out quite nicely. That's part of the idea behind Visibility.

 

Sometimes it's going to be noticed, and sometimes (like with your hidden knife example) it just isn't going to be noticed. There's a default series of trade offs. I don't think the book goes enough into it - especially with the barely-there introduction of Source Of Power. That alone could stick itself into Visibility - if you have to stick your arm out straight and shoot the beam from your palm that alone is a tip off. . .

[Beast]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Wolverine wore yellow spandex and snuck around all the time

but got caught when he was given the power to be invisible to anything but eyes with free will(Nimrod could almost perceive those X-men when it was on the verge of being totally sentient)

 

why

in the first case he is that good at sneaking around

the second he was not even trying and forgot the effect of "the siege perilous"

 

for me it comes down to

you have a visible sfx going it is going to be a bonus to those that may spot you(+1 to +5)I'd say +1 for every 10 active topping out at +5

you may be that good if you buy up your stealth

you will only be making 1/2 moves but there are the balances that are there

 

To be clear about the problems I have in practice with power visibility, I'm able well enough to deal with it in 99% of cases, but it does come up when, for instance, someone has a glowing force field and they are trying to sneak up on someone in a darkened area - you'd think that walking round with a light source in the dark would make it pretty obvious you were there - but whether it does or not is a judgement call. Indeed, could the character have legitimately bought the power with the 'noisy' limitation (or whatever it is called)?

 

The propblem is I may not adjudicate the same way twice in a row because it does not come up that often. Maybe that is just the fault of my failing memory.

 

Of slightly more concern is the fact that 'IPE' is so expensive for what it does, and that tends to penalise the player who builds a character to concept. Most of the time having invisible powers simply does not justify the expense of a +1 advantage.

 

I think that a slightly different approach to visibility could make things easier all around.

[incrdbil]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

One of the many areas of Hero I struggle with, bless me, is the visibility of powers. The rules say something like this. All powers that use END are visible to 3 senses including a targeting sense (usually sight) and at least one other common sense (usually hearing). Sounds clear, but implementation is problematic in some cases, for instance, if you are shooting a gun at someone it is usually pretty obvious that you are doing so if you are close by, but if it is a distance shot it is far less obvious: the sight visibility is provided by the source of the power with the gun - the pointing of the black tube of death, the muzzle flash (maybe, in a high-contrast environment) and the smoke.

 

I think FX considerations really matter at this point. I have no problem saying that a long range shot is hard to spot if no-one just happened to catch the muzzle flash. Balancing that out are the numerous other fx of a gun: detection long after the fact by gunpowerder residue; ballistics matching of the projectile. Smell may be a good third sense for detection. Noting differences in visibility for day/night consideration.

 

 

Moreover the rules do not specify what effect visibility has exactly - does it draw the attention to an active power, or does it merely allow you to draw the obvious conclusion if you are looking in the right direction.

 

Well, I dont believe it automatically make the origin or special effect of every power visible, regardless of range. I think it allows the use of perception to observe information about the power use, ranging to automatic things you can't help but notice (I've been shot, or the person right next to me has been shot!) to things that might require a perception roll. That roll coudl have a bonus (was that a burst, a single shot, what direction did it come frome) or a penalty (where did that shot from long range come from exactly).

 

 

 

 

Finally, the visibility rules are oddly regimented; why 3 senses? I can understand the idea of sight, hearing and another, but it is an arbitrary decision, and whilst you have to make arbitrary decisions to an extent, I’m not sure it is entirely necessary here, or if it is, that this is the best way to do it.

 

I'm very comfortable with handwavign away the third sense if the first two are very common, or letting the third sense by a fairly unusual sense (or skill).

 

Maybe visibility could be measured in points of visibility. Ie, powers must be visible by X points of visibility factors. A common sense group would be 2 points, a unusual sense group 1 point, and a very specific sense or skill could be one point. Each 1/4th of invisible advanatge removes one point of sense grouping.

[schir1964]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

One of the many areas of Hero I struggle with' date=' bless me, is the visibility of powers. The rules say something like this. All powers that use END are visible to 3 senses including a targeting sense (usually sight) and at least one other common sense (usually hearing).[/quote']

Clarification:

Powers that cost END are automatically visible by 3 Sense Groups (which means all senses within that group).

Also, the first two groups default to the Sight Group and Hearing Group while the third group may be specified by the player based on the SFX of the power.

To change the first two group defaults requires GM permission.

 

This may be surprising to some, but a long time ago I was confused about this also and through various rereading of the Rules, FAQs, and responses from Steve Long, this is what I came to realize as the official line concerning Visibility of powers.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the Sense Groups portion of it, but that is what it is unfortunately.

 

Sounds clear, but implementation is problematic in some cases, for instance, if you are shooting a gun at someone it is usually pretty obvious that you are doing so if you are close by, but if it is a distance shot it is far less obvious: the sight visibility is provided by the source of the power with the gun - the pointing of the black tube of death, the muzzle flash (maybe, in a high-contrast environment) and the smoke.

At a distance you might still hear the report but, unless you were looking in the right direction, you are unlikely to spot the visual clues.

Clarification:

The combat rules concerning Perception states that the GM needs to take the sum of all modifiers to Perception of an event or situation and if the sum is Positive, then event/situation is automatically perceived and no Perception roll is necessary. However, if the sum is Negative, then a Perception roll is required with the Negative result used as a penalty to the roll.

 

I've always felt that standard guns should always be built with a level of Invisible Power Effects since source of the power is not easily tracked back to the point of origin. But that is another discussion altogether.

 

Anyway, I suppose the GM could assign a negative modifier for this specific situation to account for the inability to perceive the point of origin.

Also' date=' invisible power effects costs way too much, generally. Wana-hoo-ne-ay too much. I’m sure you can all come up with instances where having an invisible power effect is absolutely the knees of the bees, or the dogs chew-toy, but generally, for a game that is largely combat balanced, it is not worth spending full points on (by which I mean you might buy it as a slot in a MP but you are going to have a full-power visible slot too).[/quote']

I think there should be more granularity for Invisible Power Effects. This might allow for a decreased cost structure, but I'm not sure.

Finally' date=' the visibility rules are oddly regimented; why 3 senses? I can understand the idea of sight, hearing and another, but it is an arbitrary decision, and whilst you have to make arbitrary decisions to an extent, I’m not sure it is entirely necessary here, or if it is, that this is the best way to do it.[/quote']

I would be in favor of all powers being Invisible by default and have the GM enforce making them Visible as needed based on the SFX. Obviously, this would require a lot more work during character creation, but I don't have another solution as elegant to offer at this time.

The basic point of visibility rules is this: it is obvious that a power is in use and who is using it. If we start with that basic premise then we need say little more: whatever the sfx of the power they WILL draw attention to the use of the power.

I think the rules already do this, but again, finding all the little rules does make it difficult to come to that conclusion initially.

OK' date=' but is that all? What about the gun, or the knife: the source sfx can be disguised by distance, whereas effect sfx (say it is a plasma rifle with a glowing bolt) will show the entire path of the attack, and distance will be all but irrelevant. With the knife, you can hide it up your sleeve, concealing it, or, if you are really good at sleight of hand, you may even be able to use it without anyone (except probably the stabee) noticing.[/quote']

This is where the Campaign Rules come into play.

 

If there are common weapons that are universally recognized by the culture/group/races then Visibility should be automatically applied as necessary.

 

If there are disguised weapons (such as a sword cane), then it is not Visible (as a weapon), until it is used which then the target and any witnesses will then recognize it as a weapon. Enough use might require the character to take a Reputation Disadvantage concerning the disguised weapon.

 

If the weapon is Visible (as a weapon), but is easily concealable, then this suggests that there needs to be fleshed out rules concerning concealing weapons and so forth.

In addition' date=' all powers are visible to the extent that their results can be seen: if someone has ‘invisible’ defences and they get hit with an attack, you KNOW they have defences because they don’t burst like a ripe melon. Some people, however, want a character who DOES look like the attack has affected them – what do we do about that?[/quote']

These areas do need to be fleshed out more and taken into account for reworking the Perception/Visibility rules.

INVISIBLE POWERS

I’d suggest the basic position for invisible powers is that they should be detectable by their effects AND by some method related to their sfx. For instance if you have 3 points of armour because you have trained your body to the point where it is as hard as aluminium, (you’ve bought 3 points of armour) then it should be obvious to anyone looking at you naked that you are very fit (not that you have 3 points of armour) AND if you get stabbed, it will be obvious that at least some of the damage has been deflected. If your armour is magical in nature then you probably show up on a detect magic when you are suing it – and so on.

Perhaps you should rename this category to Non-Perceivable Powers, since an Invisible Power may not have any noticeable effects (Drain CON, IPE). The person may not be able to perceive they have been attacked with "standard senses".

So we really need to define exactly what Visible/Non-Visible/Invisible/Perceivable/Non-Perceivable means as far as mechanics are concerned.

 

I know you've addressed some of this, but I think it needs to be completely addressed in a bit more organized manner. Just a suggestion.

 

Just My Initial Thoughts

 

- Christopher Mullins

[casualplayer]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Maybe Powers should have Distinctive Features?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Maybe Powers should have Distinctive Features?

 

Well that is certainly consistent with the literature (by which I mean comics) where characters can recognise other characters by their distinctive 'power signatures' but I'm not sure it should be the default. Perhaps a +1/4 advantage for a distinctive power advantage? Maybe that is too much?

[casualplayer]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

Well that is certainly consistent with the literature (by which I mean comics) where characters can recognise other characters by their distinctive 'power signatures' but I'm not sure it should be the default. Perhaps a +1/4 advantage for a distinctive power advantage? Maybe that is too much?

 

I meant more along the lines of a Power with Easily Concealed, Noticed and Recognizeable Distinctive Features would be 10 points cheaper. Inverted adders, maybe?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

As a general commentary on this thread:

 

Sean, that makes three.

 

 

I've often struggled with this (and I think I'm thinking of the thread you mentioned, can you link back to it? I'm not sure if it's the one I made a similar comment about to this effect) and never quite pieced together the ... "why" of this.

 

Lay on Hands: Touch (you feel me put my hands on you) and Sight (I'm clearly healing you with Holy Power, whatever) and... what, smell? sound? What does healing TASTE like?

 

Sword: All swords go 'swish' as they pass through the air? Cool.

 

Guns! We all know I love guns. Sight: The slide slams back and the gun goes off and the bullet comes out, it goes BANG and it smells of cordite. It hits you, it hurts. What if it didn't hit you? Does it not count? Sight, Smell, Sound, Touch. Great. So can I drop one off automatically?

 

I agree that it works in theory, but Superman's freeze breath is visible (a cone of cold) and makes a sound (whoooosh) and has a tactile effect (hey, that's cold) but again, it's a Superheroic thing, and likely should not be part & parcel of the game rules as a whole.

[Vondy]

Re: Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

By Foci there are a certain things you have to decide that don't affect the cost of the Focus. For instance, breakable or unbreakable. To that end, I see little reason the same kinds of decisions couldn't be attached to powers, esp. in terms of visibility.