Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

[nexus]

If this is in the wrong forum I apologize and ask the mods to move it somewhere more appropriate but it is Champions related. Some people that still frequent the board have gone over to Mutants and Masterminds as their primary supers system as opposed to Champions. I'm curious what prompted the decision to change over specifically what benefits you seen over Champions/Hero System.

[Poison]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

Interesting... I went the other way around.

 

I am curious to know what the draw would be too!!!

[Theron]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

It's something I've contemplated a number of times, though for the moment, I'm still committed to Champions.

 

For my money, M&M plays faster, and has some built-in rules that reinforce the genre tropes I like. I generally feel like I have to do less contortions with the rules to get the characters I want. Also, I play in a weekly D&D game and it's a bit of an easier mental gear shift between D&D and M&M than D&D and Champions.

 

So, why am I still running Champions?

 

Familiarity. I've been playing the game for twentymumble years now and it's second nature. My group are mostly Champions veterans and are comfortable with the game. Learning a new system would disrupt our valuable game time.

 

My campaign relies almost 100% on published material. I don't have the time to spend creating and hand-crafting my own setting anymore. M&M's got a lot of stuff in print, but Champions has far more and I own a lot of Hero Designer data sets.

 

My wife (one of my cornerstone players) really didn't enjoy our brief experiment with M&M. I think I didn't know the system well enough to run it properly at the time and that she would get a kick out of it, but every time I bring it up, she says, "It took me fifteen years to figure out Champions. I'm not spending any more time learning a game system."

[gojira]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

...she says' date=' "It took me fifteen years to figure out Champions. I'm not spending any more time learning a game system."[/quote']

 

Ah, vendor lock-in is good!

[Poison]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

My wife's first RPG was D&D, and that was the reason I went with M&M first (even though I played Champions back in the 80's). So it wouldn't be such a shock to her. However, I realized while playing M&M she relied on me a lot for the rules. Though M&M is D20 system, it is so far away from D20, you are pretty much learning a new game anyway...

 

What I didn't like about M&M is the vagueness of some rules, some powers, and though the damage system was interesting, it was so easy to stun someone (because no bell curve on a D20), that you could keep a character perma stunned, if they were having a bad D20 day. I also hated how they figured out Knockback...

 

Yeah the hero points were useful, but the heroes in my game used to save them for time they were having bad dice days, and so you missed out on the whole fun of the hero points - spending them recklessly!!!

 

That is why I switched back to Hero System...

[Cardinal]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I played in an online game where we had a sister campaign in MNM.

 

I thought that the system was perfectly viable and had a couple of very nice genre elements. Specifically, I loved the Hero Point system. I thought it did a nice job of mirroring certain aspects of the comics (i.e. get trounced in fight one, but turn the tide a the climax (after you accrue some HPs)). We actually tried to replicate that concept in Hero.

 

In addition, I thought that Freedom City was a fantastic setting. The NPCs all had a sense of life and were very in genre. We actually used this setting for our Champions game.

 

However, in the end, I prefer Hero. I think it has more granularity. Further, the dice system creates greater certainty for certain outcomes (on d20, a 1 has 5% chance of occurring, whereas on 3D6 a 3 has a much smaller chance). In other words, outlier events are less likely (while not impossible) in Champions. To a large extent, this is also a product of familiarity with the system.

 

Also, I own Herodesigner. The fact that I own that app made character creation and storage infinitely easier than having to go back to pens and paper. (yes, I am that lazy)

 

In short, I can understand the appeal of MNM, but it was not for me.

 

I am interested to hear other comments.

[Kenn]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

My wife really didn't enjoy our brief experiment with M&M.

 

You know, with out the parenthetical comment, that sentence looks like it has a typo in it.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

So, why am I still running Champions?

 

Familiarity. I've been playing the game for twentymumble years now and it's second nature. My group are mostly Champions veterans and are comfortable with the game. Learning a new system would disrupt our valuable game time.

So...what happens when 6th edition comes out?

[nexus]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I can't speak for Theron, of course, but I don't think the change for 6th Edition would be quite as radical as the change from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds particularly since he's been playing Champions through at least one other edition change.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I play/run and enjoy both

Why do I use M&M? Because I like the setting and find the rules work well with the genre. In fact, I think there's some rules in M&M (like Mook rules and Hero Points) that should be considered for Hero 6th ed (at least as optional rules), plus I dig the Freedom Universe and Paragons book. Sure I could convert the info ... but why bother when the system runs well? My one big problem with M&M is the damage system which takes some getting used to.

Why do I use Hero? Because I like the crunchiness and like the feel of multiple dice I've always been a big Hero fan and enjoy playing the game. My one reservation, however, is that I'm not a fan of the 5th ed CU/HU and kinda wish for the days of 4th ed.

 

And as a suggestion, Nexus you might want to ask this over at the M&M boards, as not everyone that's a former Champions player posts here any more Also, you may want to check the General Roleplaying board and do a search, as this has been brought up a few times in the past

[lemming]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

So...what happens when 6th edition comes out?

 

It's still Champions (Hero). I've played 1st - 5th and while there are changes, the basic concept is there.

[Theron]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I can't speak for Theron' date=' of course, but I don't think the change for 6th Edition would be quite as radical as the change from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds particularly since he's been playing Champions through at least one other edition change.[/quote']

 

Exactly this. The Missus has been playing since the BBB. I've been playing since the LBB (1st edition).

 

When the new version comes out, I suspect our reaction will be much the same as it was with FRED: I'll buy it, read through it, shake my fist at the parts I don't care for, adopt the ones I do right away and gradually slide into a 6th Edition game, if it seems to be worth my while. If not, I'm pretty sure Steve and Darren won't send the Hero Cops out to beat my door down if 5E still suits our needs.

[sinanju]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

If this is in the wrong forum I apologize and ask the mods to move it somewhere more appropriate but it is Champions related. Some people that still frequent the board have gone over to Mutants and Masterminds as their primary supers system as opposed to Champions. I'm curious what prompted the decision to change over specifically what benefits you seen over Champions/Hero System.

 

The thing that interested me in Mutants & Masterminds was the ability to create characters who more closely resembled many comic book characters without a) spending hundreds and hundreds of points, twisting the rules all out of shape with complex builds to simulate something the system doesn't cover, or c) creating an unbalanced combat monster.

 

M&M lets you build high-end supers more easily and cheaply than Champions, in my experience, and without making them unbalancing in combat.

[nexus]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I play/run and enjoy both

 

You seem to be rare soul. The rivalry between the two systems seemed almost as intense as that Mac vs PC wars.

 

Also, you may want to check the General Roleplaying board and do a search, as this has been brought up a few times in the past

 

Thanks, I'll take a look there.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

The thing that interested me in Mutants & Masterminds was the ability to create characters who more closely resembled many comic book characters without a) spending hundreds and hundreds of points, twisting the rules all out of shape with complex builds to simulate something the system doesn't cover, or c) creating an unbalanced combat monster.

 

M&M lets you build high-end supers more easily and cheaply than Champions, in my experience, and without making them unbalancing in combat.

 

 

Interesting. I haven't actually run it but found character creation completely inadequate. I could make exactly what I wanted in HERO better but then again I don't make planet pushers. Must be our I like crunchy ,you like simpler split. I think that's part off it. Its perceived as simpler and really is in some ways so people who want less work would prefer it. Its also more freewheeling and less detailed and some prefer that also.

[Poison]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

You have some good points steamteck. I personally did feel like M&M was very stripped down in comparison to Hero System, and maybe in hindsight that is another reason why I was dissatisfied with it...

 

You can make waaaay beefier heroes with a lot less points in M&M. Those who like very high powered games might like that system better...

[nexus]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

So far I think I'll be sticking with Hero System. I actually LIKE the granularity of Hero and more precise control over what the character can do. And really high powered characters don't really interest me so that's not a big selling point.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

It isn't hard to tweak the ground rules of a particular HERO game to allow for high-powered superheroics, if you're familiar with the permutations of the system. Galactic Champions included a few suggestions along those lines, and I hope to see those included and expanded upon in the Sixth Edition Champions genre book. HERO has also moved closer to Hero Points and similar mechanics with its "Heroic Action Points" from Pulp HERO (which Steve Long is considering putting in the core 6E rulebook), although IMO the HAP could be pushed further.

 

The impression I get from Mutants and Masterminds is that it's a game system designed from the outset to simulate the style and feel of four-color superheroics, up to Superman-level play, using the experience in game design gained over nearly three decades of such games. As such it does that genre very well. More recently supplements have been published to adjust the system for street-level play, and fans have modified its framework for other genres such as fantasy; but at M&M's core, 4-C supers is its default. HERO has evolved away from its own early four-color roots as Champions toward its current universal tool-kit approach, so it hasn't emphasized that style of play as much as it could. Perhaps its time for Steve and Co. to seriously re-examine how HERO handles that genre, and look at ways for the game to enhance that style of play -- not just options, but core elements of the system.

[input.jack]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

Im one of those people who has gone from HERO to M&M, as far as what I mostly play.

 

While M&M looks less crunchy, fact is that if you include the Ultimate Powers book (which the guys at Green Ronin have admitted was how they -should- have written powers in the main rule book), you get a lot more crunch from the system.

 

Ultimately the big advantages I see M&M having over HERO are (1) the Hero Point mechanic and the Minion mechanic both strongly reinforce the genre, (2) Power Level can be seperated from Character Points, allowing a GM to run -exactly- the power scale they want to without having to contort the game, or suffer from "power creep", (3) its about 10x more time-consuming to write things up in HERO than it is in M&M, meaning for someone who uses all original material (like me), Im getting a heckuva lot more done in the same amount of time, and can concentrate on plotlines rather than writeups. (4) The PL 10 setting gives a very "DC Animated Universe" feel to characters, and with a few extra points you can do almost any comic character imaginable without breaking the system (150 points is fine for "Day One" characters, but experienced characters should be built on 175 to 200 points, even at PL 10. We settled on 180).

 

HERO still has some advantages. It -is- a more detailed system, although honestly characters written in M&M feel as solid as HERO characters, to me. But for setting where you want to evoke a feeling of dread in your Players, like horror settings, zombie-pocalypse, and so on, HERO is the better way to go. With the Wounding and Bleeding rules in place, HERO is the better system for a straight-up Western campaign, for example. So I -do- still play HERO.

 

Just not for superheroes.

 

BTW, if your Players are hoarding all their Hero Points for "bad die roll nights", maybe you should try to encourage them to buy more Luck, and maybe be a bit more generous with handing Hero points out during play

[Poison]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

BTW' date=' if your Players are hoarding all their Hero Points for "bad die roll nights", maybe you should try to encourage them to buy more Luck, and maybe be a bit more generous with handing Hero points out during play [/quote']

 

I actually tried that. Guess what happened? They hoarded the hero points. One of them had 5 hero Points, I kept asking "Are you wanting to use a Hero Point here?" The answer was always, "No I will save it in case I really need it..." I would purposefully use GM rule to give the villain and advantage to give them more Hero Points, and they let it happen and still they hoarded them!!! They only time they ever used them was to stave off a stun...

 

They didn't want to buy luck, as they didn't feel it fit with their characters. All of my players do not Max/Min, and try to make as realistic characters as possible to what their concept is.

 

I have Ultimate Powers, and I think it is a MUST BUY if you play M&M. There are many things I didn't personally like about M&M when playing it.

 

I don't think that Hero Points are needed in Hero System, and I don't think they necessarily add to the game, nor do I think the minion rule is necessary in Hero System.

 

The reason for the minion rule in M&M is because if you don't use it, it can take a long time to take out the minions using their normal damage rules. The first M&M sessions I ever did, I forgot about that rule, and it took 3 hours for the heroes to take out a room full of thugs. I thought that was crazy, and went back and found the rule, and laughed at my stupidity. heh heh.

 

If the thugs are built right by the GM in Champions, taking out a thug with one hit should be a non issue with an average dice roll for damage.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

Note that the 5E rulebook sidebar, "Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat," includes optional rule suggestions for handling "minions" or "mooks" to much the same effect.

 

When you pull together all the relevant rules adjustments that appear in various HERO and M&M books, Champions and Mutants and Masterminds can be a lot closer than they appear just from looking at the core rules for each.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I actually tried that. Guess what happened? They hoarded the hero points. One of them had 5 hero Points' date=' I kept asking "Are you wanting to use a Hero Point here?" The answer was always, "No I will save it in case I really need it..." I would purposefully use GM rule to give the villain and advantage to give them more Hero Points, and they let it happen and still they hoarded them!!! They only time they ever used them was to stave off a stun...[/quote']

 

Having adapted various "hero point" mechanics from published or fan sources for my HERO games, I developed a mechanic that seems to help with that attitude. I allow players to use Character Points to buy dice for their PCs that are only used to generate hero points (5 CP per d6 in my case). They can buy more or fewer of these dice depending on how much they want to invest in them. At the start of an adventure, the players roll these dice, and the total is how many hero points they gain to use during that adventure. Unused points are carried over to the next adventure, but the total they can have at one time can never exceed the maximum that they could roll on the dice they bought.

 

This gives the players a lot more control over their use of hero points. They don't have to rely on the Game Master to regain their points, they can buy as many as they want (within reasonable GM restriction), and those who use them less frequently can purchase fewer of them, giving them more CP to invest elsewhere.

[Poison]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

They can buy more or fewer of these dice depending on how much they want to invest in them. At the start of an adventure, the players roll these dice, and the total is how many hero points they gain to use during that adventure. Unused points are carried over to the next adventure, but the total they can have at one time can never exceed the maximum that they could roll on the dice they bought.

 

This gives the players a lot more control over their use of hero points. They don't have to rely on the Game Master to regain their points, they can buy as many as they want (within reasonable GM restriction), and those who use them less frequently can purchase fewer of them, giving them more CP to invest elsewhere.

 

I can't remember exactly because I don't have the books with me, but isn't that an optional rule for the LUCK skill? You roll dice at the beginning of the session and add up the bdy of the dice, and that is how many dice rolls you can reroll or fudge...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

I can't remember exactly because I don't have the books with me' date=' but isn't that an optional rule for the LUCK skill? You roll dice at the beginning of the session and add up the bdy of the dice, and that is how many dice rolls you can reroll or fudge...[/quote']

 

That was one of my inspirations for my mechanic, yes; but I allow "hero points" to be carried over from session to session, and I use them (with a few game-balance restrictions) for a lot more than re-rolls: automatic hits in combat, maximum damage from a successful hit (or minimum after being hit), automatic Skill successes, extra-large Pushes, "dramatic editing" of scenarios to the PC's benefit, and the like.

 

If you'd like to see more of the optional HERO mechanics I adapted my system from, you can look here.

 

But I figured this method could be ported directly to M&M as an alternative way for players to gain and use Hero Points.

[sinanju]

Re: Going from Champions to Mutants and Masterminds

 

Interesting. I haven't actually run it but found character creation completely inadequate. I could make exactly what I wanted in HERO better but then again I don't make planet pushers. Must be our I like crunchy ' date='you like simpler split. I think that's part off it. Its perceived as simpler and really is in some ways so people who want less work would prefer it. Its also more freewheeling and less detailed and some prefer that also.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I've had no trouble creating characters that fit my vision in M&M--but I'm also less interested in nailing down every possible crunchy detail as long as the overall feel is right. And part of that is my preference these days for simpler systems. (And frankly, most of my gaming these days is done online in collaboratively written fic "systems" with no rules at all, which I like a lot.)

 

That said, I'm playing both Champions and M&M so I can be happy with both.

 

P.S. I also very much like the explicit rule in M&M for using power stunts to achieve occasional effects based on your existing powers. While it's possible in Champions, M&M allows you to spend a Hero Point to do it very easily. So you don't have to build a lengthy multi-power with every possible effect Superman (for example) has ever used; you give him the basics, and allow him to use HPs and perform the occasional novel feat.