How i can make The Ravager cows away

[Dr Divago]

Ok, little disappointed on how's easy to turn undead

 

First, some math:

my goup's paladin got "turning undead", so he can "turn'em". As for Fantasy Hero turning undead is a PRE attack, and the talent give him +60 PRE (with just 12 points:

Turn Undead: +60 PRE (60 Active Points);
Only to Make Presence Attack (-1), Only Works on Undead Creatures (-1),
Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Only When Serving God’s Purpose (-½)
Limited Effect (see FH 108; -1)

 

so, given his 15 PRE he can roll 15d6 with average higher than 52.

A lich got 30 PRE, so he can easily make lich "awe, don't act for a Full Phase, 1/2 DCV and possibly run away as attacker command" (cfr 5ER 428 and FH 108)

 

A wraith got 20 PRE, so he can make a wraith "cow, surrender run way or faint; 0 DCV and will nerly always run way, freeze, or do what attacker command"

 

And this is *AVERAGE* roll; a very lucky roll can results 90, and so a fresh 150 point can make "an undead with 60 pre" cow. And looking at CKC i see Takofanes has 60 PRE...

so a fresh new started guy can make Takofanes cows away???

 

ok ok is a pretty lucky roll... but he can improve the "turning presence"

ok ok i can buy PRE "only to resiste turning" or make a simple spell like

Ereghzarian's Spell of Unturning:
+20 PRE, Uncontrolled (duration of 10 minutes +5 minutes per point by
which the caster make his Necromancy Spell; +½) [30 Active Points];
Extra Time (Full Phase; -½), Only to Resist Turning (-1), Requires a
Necromancy Spell (-½) (Real cost: 10)

(my invention: real cost 10, and a wizard pays it just 3 points) but i don't like giving this spell to all necromancy casting undead and/or increasing PRE to all undeads just 'cause "i got a paladin who can turn'em all"

 

so... there is something i missed? turning the undead is not so simple? or just i can't use undead for something more than a little "nuisance", something the paladin can destroy with just few phases?

 

ty for answers, and sorry for rant

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

First off, it sounds like your players may have decided you use Undead too frequently, and they are tired of being overpowered by such opponents, based on this and the prior thread.

 

Second, a roll of 90 on 15d6 is a 1 in 470,184,984,576 chance. Let's say it takes 5 seconds to roll 15d6, glance to see if they are all 6's and if not, pick them up and throw again. Assuming nothing but rolling those dice, that 90 will come up about once every 74,496.32 years. That's sufficiently unlikely for me not to worry about it.

 

Finally, it's your game, so if you don't like the Turn Undead structure, or even the ability, you can always disallow it.

 

Maybe the better answer, returning to my first point, is a candid discussion with your players about the reason they are tweaking their characters to be highly effective against the Undead. Those points are utterly useless if you were to decide not to use the Undead in your game. If Undead are nearly constant, a -1 limitation for "only vs Undead" seems excessive for your game, and the Turn ability should cost a bit more as a consequence.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

First, what Hugh said.

 

There, that saved like... 300 words.

 

Second, you have that rogue extra -1, which makes this infinitely cheaper than I would have it, p108 of FH not withstanding.

 

Third, give bigger badder undead PRE Defense. Just because the book says it is doesn't mean you need to adhere to it. Rather than 'nerf' the players (an Americanization meaning to weaken them) instead up the power of some of your Undead. Sure, a Zombie can be turned to dust by making a Double PRE, but the zombie probably has a PRE of what... 10? So fine! Dust some zombos.

 

Lich? PRE Defense. You may also want to either have this Cost END (which it doesn't currently, because it's PRE) in lieu of the random -1 limitation. If you really want it to go the d20 route, you can also give it Charges.

 

And above all: Remember, this is HERO. The whole reason we use this system is so when something doesn't work the way we want, we can fix it.

[Enforcer84]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

First, what Hugh said.

 

There, that saved like... 300 words.

 

Second, you have that rogue extra -1, which makes this infinitely cheaper than I would have it, p108 of FH not withstanding.

 

Third, give bigger badder undead PRE Defense. Just because the book says it is doesn't mean you need to adhere to it. Rather than 'nerf' the players (an Americanization meaning to weaken them) instead up the power of some of your Undead. Sure, a Zombie can be turned to dust by making a Double PRE, but the zombie probably has a PRE of what... 10? So fine! Dust some zombos.

 

Lich? PRE Defense. You may also want to either have this Cost END (which it doesn't currently, because it's PRE) in lieu of the random -1 limitation. If you really want it to go the d20 route, you can also give it Charges.

 

And above all: Remember, this is HERO. The whole reason we use this system is so when something doesn't work the way we want, we can fix it.

I thought we used HERO so we could wear the capes.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

No capes!

[Dr Divago]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

First off' date=' it sounds like your players may have decided you use Undead too frequently, and they are tired of being overpowered by such opponents, based on this and the prior thread.[/quote']

To be honest, they faced unded only two times, and first one the paladin (who get the turn undead feats) was into "oh my god i got negative body and i'm dying" status so really no problem with undead

 

just that... i'd undead are far away easiest "plot villain" (or "plot villain troops") for a standard fantasy game... and i don't like that "standard orc" bigger problem than "heavy powerful demonic villain's undead henchmen"...

Second' date=' a roll of 90 on 15d6 is a 1 in 470,184,984,576 chance. Let's say it takes 5 seconds to roll 15d6, glance to see if they are all 6's and if not, pick them up and throw again. Assuming nothing but rolling those dice, that 90 will come up about once every 74,496.32 years. That's sufficiently unlikely for me not to worry about it.[/quote']Yeah i know

still, making wraith cows away or lich tremble in fear is average... and bad thing too... >_<

[Dr Divago]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Second' date=' you have that rogue extra -1, which makes this infinitely cheaper than I would have it, p108 of FH not withstanding.[/quote']i cut and pasted from paladin's sheet

 

this one handcopied from fantasy hero, page 108:

Turn Undead Cost: 12 Character Points:
+60 PRE; Only To Make Presence Attacks (-1),
Only Works Against Undead Creatures (-1),
Extra Time (Full Phase; -1⁄2), [b]Limited Effect (see text; -1)[/b],
Only When Serving The God’s Purposes
(-1⁄2)

 

Third' date=' give bigger badder undead PRE Defense.[/quote']So the solution is: give undead a way to overccome this turning things?

ok i did it already; just... was ansering if is the right way to solve (it seems to me like giving a pistol to someone but don't give'em the bullets)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

I never said the 'Limited Effect (see text; -1) wasn't in the book; I said that I wouldn't include it, opting instead for the bit where it, you know, only works against Undead.

 

Second, I'm not saying that everything should be resistant, but if you go to d20, there are some Undead that cannot be turned. That's canon to the genre, that happens.

 

"I am the All Powerful Campaign Villain! An Arch Lich with 25 PRE!"

 

"I'm... wow." *shrug* "Turn Undead! 55 PRE!"

 

"Oh noes! My PRE has been doubled and now I'm dead aga... no. Wait. I've been rewritten. I'm powerful enough that I can resist your Holy Power. My minions may not be so lucky, but me? Yeah. That ain't gonna fly, Mr. I Hold Up My Symbol Impotently."

 

What I'm saying is this: Figure out what you're comfortable with the PCs being able to turn, what you feel should be difficult to turn, and what you feel should NOT be turned. Figure out the average PRE of a Turn Undead attempt, and then scale the defenses accordingly. I'm saying take ownership of the campaign, rather than be concerned with "what the book said" or what one variation of the math comes out too.

[Tandem Esk]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Hi!

Can someone tell me what page of what book this is on?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Well, to retype my note from last night that appears to have been devoured by the Internet Great Old Ones...

 

Another option I'm somewhat fond of, especially for Paladin or Holy Warrior "Turning" abilities (as opposed to the classic D&D Cleric model) is to reduce the bonus PRE down to a more campaign reasonable level, but add the "Does Knockback" advantage.

 

Gives a different feel, and adds a noticeable in play effect that gives it a nice flavor without having to go all the way up to "destroys the Undead" PRE effect levels... which in and of itself might be the problem. Normal PRE attack bonuses are pretty cheap, because no matter how epic you roll, the game effects are somewhat limited in scope. Adding a damaging level to PRE attacks without also adding some sort of Advantage doesn't quite sit right.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Hi!

Can someone tell me what page of what book this is on?

 

Fantasy Hero, pg 107-108 "Turn Undead" Talent

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Well, to retype my note from last night that appears to have been devoured by the Internet Great Old Ones...

 

Another option I'm somewhat fond of, especially for Paladin or Holy Warrior "Turning" abilities (as opposed to the classic D&D Cleric model) is to reduce the bonus PRE down to a more campaign reasonable level, but add the "Does Knockback" advantage.

 

Gives a different feel, and adds a noticeable in play effect that gives it a nice flavor without having to go all the way up to "destroys the Undead" PRE effect levels... which in and of itself might be the problem. Normal PRE attack bonuses are pretty cheap, because no matter how epic you roll, the game effects are somewhat limited in scope. Adding a damaging level to PRE attacks without also adding some sort of Advantage doesn't quite sit right.

 

[takes a long, thoughtful pause]

 

Okay. Write that up, and give me an ingame example of how you envision that working in game, preferably in a vaguely narrative, but phase-by-phase format so I can 'see' precisely what you mean please, bro.

 

I think I want to adopt that, but I want to see what you mean, then add in my thoughts on what else we can do next.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

[takes a long' date= thoughtful pause]

 

Okay. Write that up, and give me an ingame example of how you envision that working in game, preferably in a vaguely narrative, but phase-by-phase format so I can 'see' precisely what you mean please, bro.

 

I think I want to adopt that, but I want to see what you mean, then add in my thoughts on what else we can do next.

 

I'll ponder a write up and get backatcha.

 

The idea was spawned by the somewhat more.. assertive Paladin powers one finds in Rolemaster combined with the "Impressive as all get out" sidebar example in the Advantages section of Fred, for applying "Does Knockback" to PRE.

 

It'd probably be a nicely animated effect, making the turning more of a shock-wave of holy power that blows the undead back without causing so much as a candle flicker to anything "real". swatting back the gathering hordes to give some breathing space just feels a bit more martial than the "The power of Bob compels you" banishment style you get with the straight PRE attack model.

[Tandem Esk]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Fantasy Hero' date=' pg 107-108 "Turn Undead" Talent[/quote']

 

Thanks!

 

I thought it was from one of the "Grimmers." That's were I looked.

[Rapier]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

One thing to keep in mind after reading a few of the supplements.

 

It appears that many of the genre books were half geared (at least as to their examples) towards a specific campaign or power level.

 

Is the book example a little too beefy? Change it, for heaven's sake!

 

How about an 'RSR: Holy Power' along with a '+10 PRE per 1 success of roll?' Make the roll by 3 and get +30 PRE to your Turn.

 

I'm also a little leary of the sheer level of the book's version of Turn. +60 PRE? Max stat for an average person in the campaign is 20 (assuming that a normal FH campaign is using heroic level characters with NCM). Just the bonus alone average 42, which is more than enough to double a max average character. Seems a little excessive to me.

 

I'm still a fan of Package Deals (I still use various package deals quite a bit with the Wizard I, Wizard II, etc). I would be tempted to use Priest I as +10 PRE on a Turn and an additional +10 per 'level' of Priest Package Deal.

 

But all that is just me. I guess what I am saying is that you don't need to take an example in the book as fiat. You can alter or change what you see fit and there are numerous methods to use to do it.

 

I just, as usual, took a while to say it!

[Tandem Esk]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Rapier: good point. The "Grimmers" are meant for Turakian Age (I think. Wasn't it?) and can be too powerful for some/most campaigns.

 

But I don't get your example. RSR for what power, and how does the +10 PRE bit come in?

[pinecone]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

I thought we used HERO so we could wear the capes.

 

I use Hero 'cause the chicks dig it....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Ive used the Turn Undead rules in Fantasy HERO and didnt encounter the problems you are citing. Are your concerns based on actual game play, or on your expectations of how it will play out?

 

If its the latter I suggest you let it play out and see if it is as egregious as you suspect, because my hunch is your concerns will prove to be unfounded.

 

 

 

Also, I'm just going to throw this out there, if you take a big picture view how much is an ability that only works vs a narrow type of opponent, and further usually has only a very soft effect of making that type of opponent hesitate or flee actually worth?

 

To me if I had any concerns over the PRE Attack basis for Turn effects it would not be over the effects that are normal for PRE Attacks but rather the arbitrary potential to allow for instant destruction that was added in FH. That's the eyebrow quirker for me, not the normal PRE effects. However it models a trope and works ok in practice in my experience.

 

YMMV

[phookz]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

I agree with KS and would add there's nothing saying you have to allow a 60 AP attack, if it's too powerful lower the AP value.

[Tandem Esk]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

To me if I had any concerns over the PRE Attack basis for Turn effects it would not be over the effects that are normal for PRE Attacks but rather the arbitrary potential to allow for instant destruction that was added in FH. That's the eyebrow quirker for me, not the normal PRE effects. However it models a trope and works ok in practice in my experience.

 

YMMV

 

How do you think it's best to do that? Linked RKA? With or w/o Trigger?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Although it's a very non-canon use and HD probably wouldn't allow it, I was thinking that adding the "Does Body" advantage would probably be about right, price-wise, for the added utility.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

How do you think it's best to do that? Linked RKA? With or w/o Trigger?

 

The most legal way would be a multipower with two or more effects or a compound power construct carefully crosslinked and modified depending on how you wanted to slice it, but either way to model the precise behavior of the "D&D" Turn effect would be very complicated and way more expensive than the ability is actually worth. That's why I'm willing to accept the Turn Undead rules as they are -- its an acceptable compromise between mechanical representation and simplicity.

[Tandem Esk]

Re: How i can make The Ravager cows away

 

Although it's a very non-canon use and HD probably wouldn't allow it' date=' I was thinking that adding the "Does Body" advantage would probably be about right, price-wise, for the added utility.[/quote']

 

"My Presence does BODY!"

 

 

 

"My body is my Presence!"