Defence Stacking

[Sean Waters]

There may be an official answer to this somewhere, and if so I would appreciate and rep a signpost to it.

 

The question is this: how do granted defences stack?

 

Now I know that if you have a character who has bought force field and armour they stack for defensive purposes What I'm really interested in would be the situation where you have, for example, two mages in your party who can both grant (UBO) a 5/5 force field. If they both hit you with that spell does the protection stack to give you a 10/10 force field? Is it any different if one mage casts the spell on you twice?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

There may be an official answer to this somewhere, and if so I would appreciate and rep a signpost to it.

 

The question is this: how do granted defences stack?

 

Now I know that if you have a character who has bought force field and armour they stack for defensive purposes What I'm really interested in would be the situation where you have, for example, two mages in your party who can both grant (UBO) a 5/5 force field. If they both hit you with that spell does the protection stack to give you a 10/10 force field? Is it any different if one mage casts the spell on you twice?

 

According to Steve when I asked the same question (and I apologize I have no link) there are no rules for, or against, Stacking in HERO RAW. I have a suite of house rules that I can give you if you're curious, but you are correct: By rule, as there IS no rule, two 5/5 forcefields grant 10/10. There would be no difference if the spell was cast multiple times, other than common sense, dramatic sense, and so on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

According to Steve when I asked the same question (and I apologize I have no link) there are no rules for' date=' or against, Stacking in HERO RAW. I have a suite of house rules that I can give you if you're curious, but you are correct: By rule, as there IS no rule, two 5/5 forcefields grant 10/10. There would be no difference if the spell was cast multiple times, other than common sense, dramatic sense, and so on.[/quote']

 

 

Happy New Yia, Thia!

 

Thanks you for the prompt and helpful reply. I feel this would be a good area to be addressed in 6th edition: it can really make a huge difference. My personal preference would generally be that only the most powerful effect works and that additional uses either have no real effect or (at most) add say +1 to the defensive total (a bit like additional applications of entangle).

 

Rep when I'm able

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Happy New Yia, Thia!

 

Thanks you for the prompt and helpful reply. I feel this would be a good area to be addressed in 6th edition: it can really make a huge difference. My personal preference would generally be that only the most powerful effect works and that additional uses either have no real effect or (at most) add say +1 to the defensive total (a bit like additional applications of entangle).

 

Rep when I'm able

 

Well my rules go along with something very similar to that:

 

1) Only the best in class holds; so if you're hit with 2 5/5 Force Fields, you still only get 5/5 in defense, because really, that's all that was paid for. No one spent the points on 10/10, so side-stepping it that way seems like high cheatery to me.

 

2) Only the best 'power' in a given set of special effects holds, barring special circumstances. Combat Luck is bought as Armor; so is Plate Mail. If you're wearing Plate Mail, then your Combat Luck doesn't apply (although by RAW, it does).

 

3) The same spell/effect doesn't stack or overwrite; they're both running until they stop; so if you have a 5/5 force field that goes for five minutes, and someone else casts a 5/5 force field that runs for 1 hour, they both run. If someone throws 'dispel force field' or similar, I give the player the benefit of the doubt, and the weaker spell goes first (the five minute version). If it were a 5/5 and a 7/7, I'd have to check the rules, but the assumption is the more powerful (in that particular instance) goes first.

 

But that's the gist. I skipped Force Wall because those are 'all or nothing' defenses; it either stops an attack or it gets busted, so putting multiple force walls in a row doesn't change anything in terms of the rules.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

If you go by the Armor charts, doubling the amount of armor adds +2 to the DEF. So two 5/5 Force Fields should come out to 7/7. Adding a third 5/5 FF, since it's not doubling the amount of defenses, should only add +1, for a total of 8/8. Four 5/5 FFs should come out to 9/9 (doubling the two FFs). It will take two more applications to knock it up to 10/10, though.

 

That's how I do it, at least. And generally only in heroic level games. If it was a superheroic game, I'd give full value in most cases.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

...

 

That's how I do it, at least. And generally only in heroic level games. If it was a superheroic game, I'd give full value in most cases.

 

That's the key.

 

It's mainly a heroic vs. superheroic thing.

[Tech]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

I think you'd get full value of both (10, instead of 5). However, a limitation could be added (Does not stack -1).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

I think you'd get full value of both (10' date=' instead of 5). However, a limitation could be added (Does not stack -1).[/quote']

 

That limitation is on my version of Combat Luck; however, this is very much Heroic v SuperHeroic, and since I run Heroic level games, it necessitated the creation of this particular ruleset.

[tesuji]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

i have two answers -

 

if two different people paid for the power, then the effects stack. So two different mages providing ff5 would add to 10.

 

NOTE you may want to house rule or apply a campaign limit to this for game balance purposes. But the fact of the matter is TWO different sets of cp were spent on ff5 and FF10 costs the same as two ff5, so the points are in line.

 

If its one mage with one spell cast twice, no dice. Only ff5 was paid for and thats all you get. Casting the spell a second time restarts the time clock on duration and if ablative is involved resets that, but it doesn't add up twice. That is, UNLESS he bought the spell a second time!

 

:-)

 

Also, a third wrinkle - i consider an element to "real armor" to be that it doesn't add up this easily so for instance two leather jackets dont protect as twice as good as one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

A side note: it's interesting to note that, in Hero, damage doesn't typically stack (look at the furor over Deadly Blow) and defenses do stack. In d20, stacking defenses is not allowed (one bonus of that type only) but attack/damage bonuses do stack.

 

No real point, I suppose - just a difference in the systems.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Question:

 

Is there a difference between it stacking as 5+5=10....or stacking as applying the damage against a defense of 5.... and then applying what's left of it against another, separate defense of 5?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Question:

 

Is there a difference between it stacking as 5+5=10....or stacking as applying the damage against a defense of 5.... and then applying what's left of it against another, separate defense of 5?

 

There might be some specific circumstance in which they're not equivalent, but I can't think of what that might be off the top of my head.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

It would make a difference if the attack were armour piercing: against 10 defence you get 5 defence, against 5 and 5 you get 2 and 2 (or 3 and 3 - not sure). Either way there is a difference.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

The only time that 'stacking' would make a difference in a super-heroic game is in cases of Armor Piercing or Penetrating and Find Weakness.

 

example:

 

Tough Guy

 

15 He's Tough...: (Total: 15 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +5 PD (Real Cost: 5) plus +5 ED (Real Cost: 5) plus Damage Resistance (5 PD/5 ED) (Real Cost: 5)

 

19 ....Really Tough: Armor (5 PD/5 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (19 Active Points)

 

(If we removed the Hardened Advantage from the second example it would also cost 15 points)

 

 

• Vs. a normal (unadvantaged) attack (EB or KA) they both behave exactly the same and add together normally.
  
• Vs. an Armor Piercing or Penetrating attack He's Tough.... is reduced per those Advantages but ....Really Tough is not.
  
• Vs. a normal attack by a character who has Found Weakness with it vs. Resistant Defenses (as defined by the Find Weakness Rules) of Tough Guy: He's Tough.... is unaffected because it considered Normal Defenses (by the Find Weakness Rules). However, ....Really Tough is halved normally per the Find Weakness Rules.
  

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

It would make a difference if the attack were armour piercing: against 10 defence you get 5 defence' date=' against 5 and 5 you get 2 and 2 (or 3 and 3 - not sure). Either way there is a difference.[/quote']

 

Actually, the interaction of Armor Piercing with 'stacked' defenses only makes a difference if part of those defenses are also Hardened. If they are not Hardened then the defenses are just totaled together and then halved as normal per the Armor Piercing Rules.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Actually' date=' the interaction of Armor Piercing with 'stacked' defenses only makes a difference if part of those defenses are also Hardened. If they are not Hardened then the defenses are just totaled together and then halved as normal per the Armor Piercing Rules.[/quote']

 

Correct, because the rules themselves don't account for the differentiation among 'source.' So two 5/5 Force Fields do in fact add to the PCs current total defense (in this case, 10/10). So if hit with an AP attack, those defenses are halved.

 

You raise a good point; if one of those defenses has Hardened, then I would rule that only that defense resists; then it becomes 7/7. but that starts becoming headache inducing.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

In my games I handle it like this:

 

Superhero games: They were paid for, thus they stack. Nuff said.

 

Heroic games (armor with money not cp): Worn armor does not stack normally. You get the highest Defense then add +1 Def for additional armor added.

Spells and the effects of special/magical items do stack. They were paid for. Its also "in genre" for magical defenses to protect characters from overbearing attacks like Dragons Fire or an Abyssmal Ball of Flame.

 

However, I also allow some types of damage to stack, like Deadly Blow and certain magical bonuses and spells. (of course, I limit Deadly blow to +3DC maximum with +1 and +2 DC bonuses being far more common) So its all relative.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

A side note: it's interesting to note that, in Hero, damage doesn't typically stack (look at the furor over Deadly Blow) and defenses do stack. In d20, stacking defenses is not allowed (one bonus of that type only) but attack/damage bonuses do stack.

 

No real point, I suppose - just a difference in the systems.

 

This actually goes to a core axiom of Hero that has been there from the beginning. Attacks are expensive and unique and non-stackable... where defenses are cheap and generic and very stackable.

 

I believe this was intentional, to create a very Superheroic feel of big damage being thrown into big defenses where no real injury or such took place.

 

With Hero now clearly moved well beyond the classic Champions model, I think the question of "Should defenses be so cheap?" and "Should defenses be stackable?" should be addressed clearly.

 

Like, if I have armor with forcefield on top of it (in concept) does the FF take the hit FIRST and then the armor? It sometimes makes a difference.

 

As noted above, many of these issues come out in Heroic/equipment based/crunchy campaigns... supers being much more generalized in nature. I'd still be quite happy with something D&D like that said, "Only one bonus from a certain kind of defense"... so you could stack FF and Armor... but not two FFs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

The SYSTEM shouldn't give a rats back-end about stacking defenses.

 

Your GAME on the other hand - as others have demonstrated - might.

 

The whole concept should be left completely the H--- out of 6E. At best as a discussion for a Genre Book.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

The SYSTEM shouldn't give a rats back-end about stacking defenses.

 

Your GAME on the other hand - as others have demonstrated - might.

 

The whole concept should be left completely the H--- out of 6E. At best as a discussion for a Genre Book.

 

Stacking defenses is a clear example of mechanical interactions. The system is defined by mechanical interactions.

 

Current Hero has a very clear "rats ass" POV on stacking defenses. It says, "Stacking Defenses is fundamentally part of the core mechanics. Defenses are generic, and mechanically interact as stackable layers of the same thing, no matter what Power provides them."

 

I'm just saying that this core axiom was developed from the original Champions game which wanted high defenses to make characters very hard to hurt. My thought was whether or not this core axiom is appropriate in a Hero System that has far outstripped its original concepts as a Supers game, and that easily stackable defenses often are counterproductive to the non-Supers games that Hero claims to support.

 

Nice to see you are as mellow and amiable in your conversations as ever, Ghost Angel.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Stacking defenses is a clear example of mechanical interactions. The system is defined by mechanical interactions.

 

Current Hero has a very clear "rats ass" POV on stacking defenses. It says, "Stacking Defenses is fundamentally part of the core mechanics. Defenses are generic, and mechanically interact as stackable layers of the same thing, no matter what Power provides them."

 

I'm just saying that this core axiom was developed from the original Champions game which wanted high defenses to make characters very hard to hurt. My thought was whether or not this core axiom is appropriate in a Hero System that has far outstripped its original concepts as a Supers game, and that easily stackable defenses often are counterproductive to the non-Supers games that Hero claims to support.

 

Nice to see you are as mellow and amiable in your conversations as ever, Ghost Angel.

 

 

Mellow? This is the internet, I wasn't aware I was allowed to be mellow!

 

I still don't think the System should change its stance regarding the generic application that Defense is Defense, and all Defenses add up.

 

Even beyond Supers into Science Fiction with force fields, battle armor, personal armor, etc. Fantasy games with various kinds of magic (whose to say Druidic Magic and Necromancy don't stack?), real armors, and fantastical armors (the super light weight elven chain shirt with a nice heavy leather vest. . .). To Cyberpunk (subdermal plating, real armors, etc).

 

Once you start to add SFX, and get down into the Genre of the Game then the question of "Does this kind of armor stack with that kind" becomes relevant - but until the System knows what you're doing it should have no say in the matter.

 

As I said - best left to a Genre Book discussion. Not the core rules.

[doubly so if a GM decides that all defenses in the Game will be built with the Armor Power + Modifiers - it's gonna look pretty silly when a Universal Toolkit tells him he can't because of some randomly arbitrary Stacking Rules that don't do the System any good at all]

[Sean Waters]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Just to interject, I'm completely on board that purchased defences stack - not a problem. Moreover, granted defences, specifically something like a UBO force field should stack with a purchased defence. I'm more concerned about whether granted defences should stack* - if you have a +5 UBO force field, should you be able to 'grant' it twice to the same person (or should you and your mate be able to each grant a +5 PD force field to a third party)?

 

This matters. If you can just keep piling on the +5 points of defence in-game you rapidly become indestructible and at relatively little cost.

 

 

 

 

*although, just to be pedantically clear I wouldn't allow you to buy autofire on your force field to make it 5 times stronger or stack a second force field generator bought as a +5 second piece of equipment.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Just to interject, I'm completely on board that purchased defences stack - not a problem. Moreover, granted defences, specifically something like a UBO force field should stack with a purchased defence. I'm more concerned about whether granted defences should stack* - if you have a +5 UBO force field, should you be able to 'grant' it twice to the same person (or should you and your mate be able to each grant a +5 PD force field to a third party)?

 

This matters. If you can just keep piling on the +5 points of defence in-game you rapidly become indestructible and at relatively little cost.

 

 

 

 

*although, just to be pedantically clear I wouldn't allow you to buy autofire on your force field to make it 5 times stronger or stack a second force field generator bought as a +5 second piece of equipment.

 

Isn't this covered in the book somewhere actually? I mean this specific instance. . .

 

I can't find it and that bugs me. I'm pretty sure the answer to both quandaries in this post is No. I'll have to go over the book more closely. I know it's in there.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Isn't this covered in the book somewhere actually? I mean this specific instance. . .

 

I can't find it and that bugs me. I'm pretty sure the answer to both quandaries in this post is No. I'll have to go over the book more closely. I know it's in there.

 

As I said in the original post there's rep in it if you can find it: I couln't

[ghost-angel]

Re: Defence Stacking

 

Autofire is mentioned under Force Wall - 5ER p181. Possibly because it's inherently the only Defense Power usable at range and on others without the requirement of UBO. You could take that and extrapolate it out.

 

Usable By Others doesn't mention it specifically, but the allusion is you can only grant a Power once with Usable By Others or Usable Simultaneously to someone else - or once per person if you can affect multiple people. Usable As Attack specifically states it can and should only affect one person at a time (and not the owner of the Power at that) without GM Permission.