Three point CSLs

[Istaran]

I have a shapeshifter character that switches off between 'punch' and striking with a bamboo sword. I would like to take 3 pt CSLs with Strike (punch), Strike (bamboo sword) and Block (with or without the sword). When I asked the GM whether those were three sufficiently related manuevers to take as a 3 pt CSL, he said to ask the forums. So what do you guys think?

Are a) hitting something with your limb to inflict damage, hitting something with your bamboo sword to inflict STUN, and c) hitting something with either one to deflect an attack suffiently similar to go in a single 3 pt CSL?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I don't see why not.

 

As a further point, you could take a 5 point Hand to Hand combat level, which would include all of the above maneuvers and a bunch of other things as well.

 

So, a 3 point level that included those three maneuvers is clearly a subset of the 5 point HtH level, so it seems to be an entirely reasonable set of related maneuvers.

[caris]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

The rule is that you can use a 3 pt csl with 3 manuevers or a tight group. If you are only using it for 3 manuevers they do not have to be closely related.

 

The only question for me is if you consider striking with and striking without the bamboo sword sufficiently different to count as two manuevers, why do you not consider the block the same making these 4 manuevers?

 

Even so, I would be fine with those 4 manuevers close enough to use with a 3 pt CSL.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

The rule is that you can use a 3 pt csl with 3 manuevers or a tight group. If you are only using it for 3 manuevers they do not have to be closely related.

 

The only question for me is if you consider striking with and striking without the bamboo sword sufficiently different to count as two manuevers, why do you not consider the block the same making these 4 manuevers?

 

Even so, I would be fine with those 4 manuevers close enough to use with a 3 pt CSL.

 

Because the System differentiates to the two Strikes and a Block happens regardless of what you use.

[Istaran]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

First off, thanks everyone for the input.

I don't see why not.

 

As a further point, you could take a 5 point Hand to Hand combat level, which would include all of the above maneuvers and a bunch of other things as well.

 

So, a 3 point level that included those three maneuvers is clearly a subset of the 5 point HtH level, so it seems to be an entirely reasonable set of related maneuvers.

 

Thanks. I'm aware of 5 pt levels, and use them on my other character sheet. I have multiform, but each form has a different personality and the one that I want 3 pt levels on is less combat oriented but for personal reasons doesn't always want to 'tag out' and let the more combat oriented personality handle the fight. So instead I would like to be able to generate an OCV in both forms.

 

The rule is that you can use a 3 pt csl with 3 manuevers or a tight group. If you are only using it for 3 manuevers they do not have to be closely related.

 

The only question for me is if you consider striking with and striking without the bamboo sword sufficiently different to count as two manuevers, why do you not consider the block the same making these 4 manuevers?

 

Even so, I would be fine with those 4 manuevers close enough to use with a 3 pt CSL.

 

As G-A pointed out, Strike is a special case for CSLs and has to be taken seperately for each attack. Otherwise, I would look for a third manuever.

My copy of the rules (5th, revised) starts that section with "The 3-point CSL applies to any group of three related maneuvers or attacks (...)." Later it says "This could apply to any three Combat Manuevers, to a single martial arts style ..." and so forth. So it's not completely clear to me whether the manuevers need to be related, or how tightly.

 

Does anyone think block is too far out from the other two?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I don't see why not.

 

As a further point, you could take a 5 point Hand to Hand combat level, which would include all of the above maneuvers and a bunch of other things as well.

 

So, a 3 point level that included those three maneuvers is clearly a subset of the 5 point HtH level, so it seems to be an entirely reasonable set of related maneuvers.

That's pretty much my take on it. I think it's a reasonable set of restricted maneuvers/attacks. Make a big deal of it and the player will just take the 5-point level with all Hand-to-Hand combat. Do you really want to make a big deal out of it and force that 2-point issue? Eh. It sounds like an interesting concept and like a player trying hard to stick within the concept and be self-limiting. That's a good thing.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Bah. Take your martial art, make sure you have both 'hand' and 'bamboo sword' as weapon elements, then get your 3-point levels in the MA.

[Fearghus]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I have a shapeshifter character that switches off between 'punch' and striking with a bamboo sword. I would like to take 3 pt CSLs with Strike (punch), Strike (bamboo sword) and Block (with or without the sword). When I asked the GM whether those were three sufficiently related manuevers to take as a 3 pt CSL, he said to ask the forums. So what do you guys think?

Are a) hitting something with your limb to inflict damage, hitting something with your bamboo sword to inflict STUN, and c) hitting something with either one to deflect an attack suffiently similar to go in a single 3 pt CSL?

 

I know I would allow it. Like was mentioned above for just two more character points you could apply the CSL to ALL HtH combat.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

The Ultimate Skill is a great resource regarding CSL's.

 

It includes an optional 4 point CSL that can apply to groups larger than 3-4 maneuvers (like extensive Martial Arts).

[Istaran]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Bah. Take your martial art' date=' make sure you have both 'hand' and 'bamboo sword' as weapon elements, then get your 3-point levels in the MA.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure what kind of martial arts would even apply to both the unarmed attacks of a shapeshifter in a variety of forms and a sword (bamboo or otherwise). Plus that's a minimum 10 extra points of investment on the 'non-combat' character sheet. Also, I'm not really clear on what manuevers can be used with growth momentum, but as far as I can tell it only counts on "Punch". And any manuever that adds more than 1d6 to the damage will push me over campaign caps.

 

So theoretically if "Defensive Strike" counts for growth momentum, is appropriate as the more or less exclusive attack for that personality, and I'm willing to spend at least 10 points picking up martial manuevers and can figure out a basis for a martial arts style that is appropriate to both shapeshifting style attacks and (bamboo) sword attacks.. then that suggestion could also work.

[pinecone]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

3 pointers sound good to me...

 

As for what Martial Art? How about "Red in tooth and claw"?

(I think it's in the bestiary...)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I was always confused by "a tight group."

 

What exactly IS that, anyway?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I was always confused by "a tight group."

 

What exactly IS that, anyway?

 

I think it's actually talking about the weapon groups found in the Weapon Familiarity table. Meaning groups like blades or bows, not the broad categories like Common Ranged Weapons.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

You think it's talking about weapon groups rather than maneuvers? Interesting.

[caris]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I was always confused by "a tight group."

 

What exactly IS that, anyway?

 

Well the examples given are always either Martial Arts like 3pts +1 CSL: Karate (the assumption being for manuevers purchased using the Martial Arts), Three manuevers like 3pts +1 CSL: Move By, Move Through, Grab By, or some weapon 3pts +1 CSL: Pistol.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I was always confused by "a tight group."

 

What exactly IS that, anyway?

 

Any group that (essentially) shares a common focused Special Effect:

 

(focused weapon groups)

Pistols

Swords

Bows

 

(martial arts)

Karate

Savate

 

(frameworks)

Multipower Pools

 

(common SFX)

Fire Powers

 

 

and others that the GM feels qualifies along those lines.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Thank you. I think the value of 3 point levels just went up in my mind....

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

So theoretically if "Defensive Strike" counts for growth momentum' date=' is appropriate as the more or less exclusive attack for that personality, and I'm willing to spend at least 10 points picking up martial manuevers and can figure out a basis for a martial arts style that is appropriate to both shapeshifting style attacks and (bamboo) sword attacks.. then that suggestion could also work.[/quote']

 

IIRC, Growth momentum, like other momentum, counts with any Strike. As for the possible 'art', well -- depends on what forms you have, really. A shapeshifter (or a group of them) could develop an art that uses the ability to shift shape as a combat technique; White Wolf came out with 'Kailindo' for their werewolf characters. As for combining different form movements with human/sword, well -- for a human, a sword is a long claw or a horn. Go from there.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I was always confused by "a tight group."

 

What exactly IS that, anyway?

 

3 to 5 work colleagues 2 hours after arriving in a bar.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Thank you. I think the value of 3 point levels just went up in my mind....

 

3 pt CSLs are incredibly useful and lovely little things. I almost always have a few on my characters, especially if I think they specialized in a specific type of combat instead of just being "good at fighting."

[Kdansky]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I allow:

 

+1 OCV: 3 points

+1 DCV: 3 points

 

Because if I don't, everyone will just buy more DEX instead. Yes, 8 points levels are practically nonexistant in my game, for good reason. +1 CV (distribute however you want) is 5 points. Overall Skill Levels are still 10 points. There, I just fixed CSLs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

I allow:

 

+1 OCV: 3 points

+1 DCV: 3 points

 

Because if I don't, everyone will just buy more DEX instead.

 

This again shows the problems caused by NCM. Most skill levels are overpriced compared to the base cost of the underlying characteristic, but fixing those costs would make the levels radically underpriced if NCM applies.

 

For example, +1 OCV and +1 DCV at 3 points each is equal to the cost of +3 DEX, no Figured. The DEX is still discounted - it also increases DEX rolls and lightning reflexes - but we're closer.

 

But if I have NCM and DEX 20, +3 DEX costs me 18. If 3 comes from SPD, 3 from OCV and 3 from DCV, that's 9 points for bonuses to DEX skills and action speed. I wouldn't allow a -1 limitation on DEX (only for OCV, DCV and Speed), so this result seems highly inappropriate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Hmm. I recall that the original Ogre has 3x8 point combat skill levels and an 18 DEX and 4 SPD. I remember the horror of discovering he could trade those skilllevels in for a 30 DEX. Boy was that scary. Hardly ever worth it in superhero games.

 

OTOH, for 30 points you can have +10 DEX or +6 x 5 point skill levels or 10 x 3 point skill levels.

 

+10 DEX gives you +3 or +4 OCV and DCV (depending on your original score), so, effectively +6 to +8 overall levels. However, the guy with 6x 5 point skillscan muster + 6 DCV and be pretty hard to hit, even for Mr Dextrous, and the 3 point levels are even more useful: you can almost guarantee a hit, or deny one.

 

No doubt about it, DEX is a bargain, but it is not entirely clear cut whether it is better than 3 and 5 point skill levels. A DEX 10 character with 10 x 3 points skill levels should beat a dex 20 easily, in a straight fight. A character with DEX 10 and 6 x 5 point skill levels is at a disadvantage but, with tactical play, can also emerge triumphant.

 

Say both characters can take 2 hits before falling over. 5 point skill man enters combat with a 9 DCV against the 7 OCV of DEX man. There's a good chance of Dex Man missing. 5 Pointer shifts to OCV and has a good chance to hit. Dex man almost certainly hits him next phase, but he has a good chance of landing that all important second blow immediately thereafter and ending the fight.

 

Luck always plays a large part, and Dex man can employ useful tactics of his own, but I would not say that the difference is so great that a price cut is necessarily justified.

 

Of course that does not take into account why Ogre could so substantially shift his offensive and defensive capability: sell-back on SPD, or buying it 'no figured'. That really does make a difference, making adding DEX effectively 1/3 cheaper. That is where skill levels really lose out.

 

Taking that into account, 5 point levels become much less attractive: for 30 points you can add +15 DEX 'no figured' for +5/+5. For the same 30 points you get 6 x 5 points or 10 x 3 points. You are probably still better off in a straight fight with the 3 point levels, but the 5 pointers become much more unattractive. That depends a lot, however, on character type. A brick, who cases less about being hit, might prefer the +1 OCV advantage he can get from the 5 point skill levels over the DEX advantage of a martial artist type who can weather being pounded less well.

 

A thorny problem...especially as both DEX and CSLs have other uses...Ogre (from the top example) would probably have been better with +8 x 3 point CSLs with punch grab and block than 30 DEX...

[Kdansky]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Yes, the Speed-sellback is brutal. And nearly any character ever written buys speed, since 30 DEX + 4 speed is just even. Characters with more than 30 DEX and 4 speed or less are a rarity, considering Speed 4 is Brick @350, but 30 DEX is very good.

 

I do see that a 5cp Level has some Advantages over +3 DEX (for 6 points after speed). But not nearly enough to make it worthwhile purchase for a broad choice of characters. You'd rather first bump your dex, since Teamwork, Breakfall, DfC and similar things are incredibly useful, and you get nearly as much CV, or even more, depending on how you look at it (+5/+5 (+10 total) vs +6 total on either DCV or OCV).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Three point CSLs

 

Hmm. I recall that the original Ogre has 3x8 point combat skill levels and an 18 DEX and 4 SPD. I remember the horror of discovering he could trade those skilllevels in for a 30 DEX. Boy was that scary. Hardly ever worth it in superhero games.

 

OTOH, for 30 points you can have +10 DEX or +6 x 5 point skill levels or 10 x 3 point skill levels.

 

+10 DEX gives you +3 or +4 OCV and DCV (depending on your original score), so, effectively +6 to +8 overall levels. However, the guy with 6x 5 point skills can muster + 6 DCV and be pretty hard to hit, even for Mr Dextrous, and the 3 point levels are even more useful: you can almost guarantee a hit, or deny one.

 

+10 DEX also gives you +1 SPD - I think you need to use DEX no Figured to get a fair comparison.

 

No doubt about it, DEX is a bargain, but it is not entirely clear cut whether it is better than 3 and 5 point skill levels. A DEX 10 character with 10 x 3 points skill levels should beat a dex 20 easily, in a straight fight. A character with DEX 10 and 6 x 5 point skill levels is at a disadvantage but, with tactical play, can also emerge triumphant.

 

Say both characters can take 2 hits before falling over. 5 point skill man enters combat with a 9 DCV against the 7 OCV of DEX man. There's a good chance of Dex Man missing. 5 Pointer shifts to OCV and has a good chance to hit. Dex man almost certainly hits him next phase, but he has a good chance of landing that all important second blow immediately thereafter and ending the fight.

 

DEX Man could also use his extra phase to Dodge, or Dodge to match all of Skill Man's attacks, striking with his extra phase when Skill Man is committed to OCV.

 

Taking that into account' date=' 5 point levels become much less attractive: for 30 points you can add +15 DEX 'no figured' for +5/+5. For the same 30 points you get 6 x 5 points or 10 x 3 points. You are probably still better off in a straight fight with the 3 point levels, but the 5 pointers become much more unattractive. That depends a lot, however, on character type. A brick, who cases less about being hit, might prefer the +1 OCV advantage he can get from the 5 point skill levels over the DEX advantage of a martial artist type who can weather being pounded less well.[/quote']

 

The problem is that we're only looking at Supers. If the characters have NCM, then DEX no Figured is also inappropriately priced (reducing the cost from 6 to 4 when the SPD sellback is 1 point, not 2). Compared to 15 points for +3 DEX (18 minus 3 for the SPD add), those skill levels start looking a lot more cost-effective.

 

Elimination of NCM is a must if skill levels are to be priced at a level appropriate for all genres - as long as the price of characteristics can vary so markedly, the price of skill levels will always be too high for Superheroic games, or too low for Heroic games.

 

Maybe skill levels should be repriced to be appropriate compared to the base cost of characteristics (no NCM) and be a huge bargain if you have NCM. After all, skill levels are primarily limited characteristics (although the "add damage" component broadens combat levels a bit). Characteristics with limitations avoid the NCM rules anyway, so why should levels be an exception? "DEX, no figured, no OCV, does not change combat order, does not improve DEX skills" is the same as Skill Levels for DCV - let's price them accordingly.

 

The sub-components of DEX are overpriced. Lightning Reflexes is especially guilty of this, but all the other components need to be repriced if they are to be balanced. What do we get for 45 points - +15 DEX?

 

- +1.5 SPD = 15 points. That leaves 30 points.

- drop the bonus to skill rolls level to 3 points, and +3 with all DEX skills costs 9.

- make OCV and DCV cost 3 points each and there's 30 points already.

- that leaves 3 points for Lightning Reflexes. If we make "Act at 3 DEX higher" 1 point, the total sums to 54 with SPD. That's a 20% benefit for buying all the components together - a synergy bonus, but much reduced.

 

Dropping the cost of "+1 with skills" improves the problem with both PRE and INT as well. +1 with all PER (3 points) and +1 with all INT skills (3 points) leaves INT providing a 20% synergy bonus.

 

PRE could be revised so +1 with skills is 3 points and +1d6 PRE attack is 3 points. Remove defense from PRE - that can be covered simply with EGO (the Cowardly Lion has high PRE and low EGO). Same 20% synergy bonus.

 

Say EGO gets +1 with rolls for 3 points, +1 OECV for 3 points, +1 DECV for 3 points and +3 PRE defense for 1 point. So +15 EGO costs 30 points and gets 9 + 15 + 15 + 5 = 44 points of benefit, almost a 47% benefit. That's a lot, so the components seem overpriced. Should we drop the cost of some of these components?

 

STR, CON and BOD need revised Figured characteristic rules to work, but that can be done - again, the problem is costing the components, and reducing the cost of STUN, END and REC, plus revising the formuli, can fix that (an issue that's been discussed before).

 

I think I have digressed from the issue of 3 point levels, but the point is that skill levels are overpriced considerably compared to the characteristics, but reducing their costs would make them too great a bargain compared to characteristics with the doubled cost after NCM applied.