Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

[Edsel]

This cropped up in our game last night and I am curious how others would handle it.

 

While on the waterfront pier our opponent picked up a cargo container and threw it at us. This thing was big (about 5-hexes long). Our group's brick (Striker) had the Strength to handle such a heavy object and he also had a held action. Striker declares that he will half move in front of the group and missile deflect the cargo container. The GM rules that he cannot deflect the missile since it is large and counts as an Area of Effect attack. The rules state that you cannot normally deflect an attack that has AoE purchased for it. However in this case no one purchased anything, the opposing brick just picked up an object of opportunity and it happened to be large.

 

How would you rule on something like this? Should Striker be able to missile deflect this attack or not?

 

In our game Striker simply changed his action to throw himself in front of the attack and intercepted it that way. He came through it fine and we easily won the encounter.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

I would ask the GM why we have the following Limitation?

Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4)

 

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 137; Revised, page 210)

This Limitation represents a Missile Deflection that will not work against attacks which involve projectiles too heavy for the character to lift.

 

I'm pretty sure the described situation is addressed in the Ultimate Brick as well.

[Vulcan]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

...And that limitation wouldn't have even come into play since the container was eaily within the deflector's capacity to lift.

 

In the final analysis (for this incident) the GM made a call, everyone came through okay, and the players should anticipate that next time the characters cannot deflect any AEH or explosion attacks, purchased or not.

 

And then make use of it the next time the group encounters a missle deflecting villian...

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Well, I would have to ask how his Missile Deflection was defined. It really is about effect, not power. Since he's a brick, it seems he could be able to bat away the container (given enough STR, naturally). I think something in the environment COULD be defined as an AoE attack against some characters, but not for others.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

I think the book also makes a statement about SOME AOE attacks being deflectable. I believe it gives a grenade as an example, since it is delivered as a physical projectile before it detonates. I'd agree that the SFX are pretty important, including the Str of the brick in this case (not sure if I'd require the brick to be strong enough to lift it, but he'd have to be somewhere in the vicinity). If it were an energy projector deflecting it with a blast, I might even calculate the equivalent Str of the character's EB or whatever to see if it was (at least rougly) strong enough to do it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Another completely different option to consider...

 

Would be to forget treating this as an attempt at Missile Deflection altogether. Call it a Catch and use the Grab maneuver instead.

 

Catching A Falling Character (from page 434 5er)

 

MOVEMENT AND STRENGTH (pages 364-365 5er)

 

Characters can also use STR to oppose another character’s or object’s movement — to stop a speeding car or runaway horse, for example. To do this, the character must make an Attack Roll to Grab the character or object and obtain a firm hold; the object may make a STR Roll (with additions to STR from movement) every Phase to break free from the character’s grip (this is a Zero Phase Action, but may only be done once per Phase). For every 5 points of STR a character has (including STR added from movement), he may subtract 1” of movement per Phase. Thus, a character with 50 STR subtracts 10” of movement the first Phase he tries to stop a moving object, another 10” the next Phase (reducing the character’s or object’s movement by a total of 20”), and so on until the object gets away from him or is brought to 0” of movement.

 

If the character fails to stop the moving character or object completely with his STR the fi rst Phase he tries to do so, but it does not break free from his grip, he will be dragged along by the moving character or object unless he lets go. If he is dragged, his weight may cause the moving character or object to slow down even further. Consult the rules for Encumbrance (page 379) to determine what effect, if any, the extra weight has, based on the character’s or vehicle’s STR (if the object is not a vehicle, the GM should assign it a STR for this purpose).

 

There is precedence for this in the source material (Superman II when he catches a bus).

[Beast]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

next time pick up another cargo container and use it as an area effect shield

put it in place after all your teammates have used their ranged attacks

pick it up when they are all ready to fire

[Doc Samson]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

If I were the Brick, I would have gleefully exclaimed "awesome" and threw it back after it landed. I then would have then proceded to throw all the rest of the cargo containers on the pier at the villain.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Well.

 

It's not an AOE, unless the opponent had purchased AOE on his STR with an OIF, or a similar power. Otherwise, this is a variation on Spreading an Attack.

 

In either case, common & dramatic sense rule over all else; while I'll agree that someone should not be able to missile deflect an AOE (such as the canonical Fireball) I would submit that the SFX in this case is a massive cargo container -- which reasonably COULD be deflected.

 

I wouldn't have made the same call that GM made, that everyone survived not withstanding.

[Kenn]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Bad GM call.

[Vulcan]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Good or bad, it's better to let the GM call it and get on with the game than waste a bunch of time arguing about it.

 

HOWEVER, I would take great delight throwing a large, heavy object at the next Missile Deflecting NPC we fought....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

I think the book also makes a statement about SOME AOE attacks being deflectable. I believe it gives a grenade as an example' date=' since it is delivered as a physical projectile before it detonates. I'd agree that the SFX are pretty important, including the Str of the brick in this case (not sure if I'd require the brick to be strong enough to lift it, but he'd have to be somewhere in the vicinity). If it were an energy projector deflecting it with a blast, I might even calculate the equivalent Str of the character's EB or whatever to see if it was (at least rougly) strong enough to do it.[/quote']

 

Yes, there is a Lim called "Can Be Missile Deflected" for this exact case.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Large object can be treated as either an AoE or a bonus to hit based on relative sizes using the Target Size rules, as they see fit.

 

However there is a special note that characters can often DODGE against such ersatz AoE's. Considering its a discretionary call in the first place as to whether the item is an AoE or a bonus to hit, and since Dodge is allowed, I don't think its unreasonable to allow a missile deflection attempt, even if at a penalty (say, equal to the size modifier).

 

 

My default resolution in cases like this is to have the PLAYER describe what they want to do in non-game terms to JUSTIFY the attempt. If it sounds cool / fun / appropriate I'll allow it even if I attach a circumstance modifier (negative or sometimes even positive). If it sounds like BS it doesn't fly. Other players can be a good gauge of BS factor too -- if even the other players guffaw or shoot it down, then its an easy call to say no. If the other players are like, wow cool! it makes sense to give at least a _chance_ to pull it off.

 

 

 

 

All that aside, this reminds me of how much I don't like the default rules for using objects as weapons -- the DEF + BODY cap on damage vs just using Hand Attack or Normal Damage. What, if I use a piece of wood described as a club it ADDS damage, but if I pick up a cosmetically identical piece of wood that's an "object" it CAPS my damage? What the?!? Makes no sense.

 

I've handled this with different house rules over the years, the current one is that objects add their DEF - (DEF-BODY; floor 0) in Normal damage (or equivalent DC of Killing Attack if appropriate), but if the item isn't specifically designed to be a weapon then 2/3 of the body damage of the attack is applied to the object as well (it gets to count its DEF against it).

 

DEF 5 BODY 7 would translate as 5 - (5-7) = 5 - 0 = 5d6.

DEF 5 BODY 3 would translate as 5 - (5-3) = 5 - 2 = 3d6.

 

Thin / lightweight / flimsy materials aren't as effective as solid, sturdy materials, effectively.

 

Weapon damage doubling applies in heroic settings, as does STR Min (enough STR to lift the object at all, plus 3 (+3 STR over lift).

 

Thus a DEF 3 BODY 3 piece of plywood is equivalent to a 3d6 club and a DEF 6 BODY 7 "Heavy Plate" equivalent with a sharp edge is equivalent to a 2d6 KA Battle Axe, etc. Works out in most cases, though some unusually defined objects might be quirky -- like a vault door (16 - (16 - 9)) = (16 -7) = 9d6. A proper 1 meter thick Fort Knoxian vault door on the other hand would be more like DEF 16 BODY 17 however, and grant 16d6 Normal damage to someone strong enough to wield it effectively.

 

Thus really strong characters get a benefit from objects (extra damage) but the object will fall apart in their hands.

 

Assuming superheroic rules, a STR 20 character hitting something using a DEF 5 BODY 5 item as a impromptu weapon will do 9d6 damage (4d6 STR, 5d6 weapon) at full strength, but on average 6 BODY will apply to the object, it will take 1 BODY past DEF on average on the first hit and the damage gets adjusted down thereafter as the item degrades so in the case of 1 BODY getting thru on the first hit, the damage would degrade--> 5 - (5-4) = 4d6. The second hit does 8 BODY on average and 5 is applied to the weapon which its DEF can wholly resist. If the character only does average or below damage the item will stay usable, but a high damage attack can further bust the item.

 

Assuming superheroic rules, a STR 50 character hitting something with a DEF 5 BODY 5 item will do 15d6 damage but the object will take 10 BODY on average and destroy it in one hit. On the other hand if the item were DEF 5 BODY 6, it would be reduced to DEF 5 BODY 1 by the first average hit and the damage potential would drop to 5 - (5 -1) = 1d6 -- the item is almost completely broken but still somewhat useful for a little extra damage.

[pinecone]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

It's a GM call...it's a grey(ish) area...would I have gone that way? No, but I have no static for the GM who did.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Just as a side note, DEF-max(0, DEF-BODY) = min(DEF, BODY). You can tell that by analyzing each case (DEF < BODY, DEF > BODY, DEF = BODY) separately.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Hmm. Uh oh. You've got me thinking KS. How would I approach changing the rules myself? (Bare with me here, I'm typing as I'm thinking rather than significantly afterwards as I usually do. So it might seem like a bit of a ramble. Maybe I'll sum up later and you can skip my madness without too much guilt. )

 

Let's assume (for the moment) you use an object that is at the limit of your lifting capacity. Pretending we use the "living or vehicle" column on the object body table (yes, we'll only throw motorcycles, automobiles, buses, and elephants for now), it actually takes a Str of 5*(BODY-8) to lift the object. Put another way, you could do Str/5+8 dice of damage before running into the BODY+DEF DC limit even if the DEF of the object is zero.

 

Of course you would not be able to throw this object, and any sane GM would assign you a bit of a OCV penalty if you tried to swing it around as a hand-to-hand weapon. Nevertheless, let's use it as a basis. Say you can add (DEF+8)d6 to your normal Str damage for this barely liftable object. For each -1 BODY (half the mass), this would drop by a die. Flipping it back the other way, you'd get your straight Str damage for an object that it takes 5*DEF+40 below your Str to lift, and +1d6 for each +1 BODY (doubling of mass) above that. For yet another perspective, you get (Str/5+DEF)d6 for an object whose mass is equivalent to 40 Str below yours. Seems marginally within the bounds of sanity to me....

 

Now a funny thing happens when we throw a dumpster rather than a motorcycle; a section of high-rise rather than a bus. For some reason "unliving" objects have less BODY than living ones. Funny. Take a reasonably solid wooden object (say a 100kg table) and chip away at it with blows that just get past its toughness (DEF). Which is going to last longer, the table or the human body? Interesting. I can understand complex objects having less BODY, but simple ones.... The human body will heal in the end, but I don't think it's going to weather the beating quite as long before losing its functionality. Well, there's only a 3 BODY difference anyway, and our little mind game can weather that small bit of a beating, so to speak. So we make it instead (Str/5+DEF)d6 for an object whose mass-equivalent-Str is 25 below yours, with +1d6 per +1 BODY (or doubling of mass) above that. Maybe that's even a better starting point for this kind of thing, and we can forget the stupid B.S. living/non-living chart difference.

 

Now does it make sense? Well, if an object is so light and crunchy that you could juggle it on your knuckles or crush it on your forehead, is it likely to add to your Str damage? I'd say probably not. If you can just barely lift it, it might do quite a bit of damage if you can somehow manage to smack it into your target (lift it and then aid its descent as it falls perhaps? Heh.) But somewhere in between we might be able to have some real bone crunching delight. A bonus of up to (DEF+5)d6 sounds kinda right for a superheroic game, though I'm not sure how I'd feel about it in a heroic one where you actually expect people to pick up manufactured weapons.

 

Mechanical Synopsis

 

MinStr - Minimum Str needed to lift object

x = Str-MinStr

 

x ... DCs

--... --------

(+5) ... (-1)

25 ... (Str/5+DEF)d6

20 ... (Str/5+DEF+1)d6

15 ... (Str/5+DEF+2)d6

10 ... (Str/5+DEF+3)d6

5 ... (Str/5+DEF+4)d6

0 ... (Str/5+DEF+5)d6

(<0) ... N/A

 

Thoughts? Could have another column for OCV penalty, perhaps. I'm not sure about it myself, but it's my first-take. Something that does stay within the DEF+BODY dice limit (which sort of makes sense to me because average Body damage from that kind of attack would completely break the object) and still allows objects to add a bit rather than always limiting....

 

Huh. One thing I just noticed about it is that every character who can lift the object is going to do the same amount of damage with it really. If you have another +5 Str, you'll lose 1d6 of the HA bonus but make up for it with +1d6 of your natural Str damage. Hmm. I'm not sure if that's a good thing (and simply says stronger characters should pick up bigger objects) or if it's a back-to-the-drawing-board quality. I'll have to ponder....

 

Sorry for the rambling. Guess it's helping the thought process this time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missile Deflect A Big Thrown Object

 

Good points, and an interesting idea. I like the plan to use lifting strength. Just thinking aloud...part of the problem here is that a thrown object does the same damage if you take a standing or a running throw. It shouldn't because a running throw imparts far more momentum...

 

I like the ad hoc (DEF+BODY)d6 for improvised weapons as it is easy, BUT that is based on the assumption that BODY is related to mass and hard objects cause more damage than soft ones. It also assumes that, if the (DEF+BODY) is exceeded, the object is effectively destroyed and so can not do more damage. At least, that has been my assumption about the assumption.

 

I'd rather base damage on (STR to lift), as a base. Body is often based on mass for simple inanimate objects.

 

SO, a human used as a missile would have a base damage of 2d6, as would anything of similar mass.

 

I would then add a value for DEF. I'd suggest a human corpse would have a notional DEF of 2, as there are crunchy bits in there. Remarkably difficult to dispose of a corpse. Apparently. A GM might allocate a higher DEF if the character has hard or rigid defences.

 

So, a base damage would be (STR to lift/5)+DEF. To that you would add V/3, just like you would for a move through.

 

You might decide that the maximum damage that you can cause with an improvised missile is DEF+(BODYx2)d6, which would be the damage that would effectively completely destroy the missile.

 

Example: I decide to throw Red Hannah, who I've just rendered unable to protest, at her team mate, Blue Move.

 

Red Hannah is a standard sized character, so I would need 10 STR to lift her, and has force fields which turned off when I KO'd her, so she has a base notional DEF of 2, for a base damage of 4d6.

 

I am STR 55. With a standing throw and 45 excess strength I can hurl her 18", for +6d6 velocity damage, or 36" with a running throw for +12d6 damage: so somewhere in the 10d6 to 16d6 damage range.

 

The Ballerina would take the full damage if I hit (at -4 OCV for an unbalanced, non-aerodynamic object*), but Red Hannah would take 2d6 less: she does not take additional damage for her notional DEF, so you'd roll 8d6+2d6 or 14d6+2d6.

 

Persoanlly I do not find it incongruous that you can do more damage throwing someone than you could just hitting them, but if you do, cap out the damage at the damage your own strength could have caused.

 

For missile deflection purposes, obviously sfx play a large part, but I do not see anything wrong with being able to block an AoE based on an attack being large: you are just getting between the attack and its target hex.

 

Purchased attacks do not have a mass component, so are difficult to integrate but large thrown objects do. For thrown objects though I'd suggest that you apply a penalty to deflect based on (MASS+v/3 of object)-(STR of deflecting 'attack')/5.

 

So, for instance, if you use STR to deflect an object, and you have 25 STR, to deflect Red Hannah, you would be at a penalty of (2+12)-5=-9. however, if you have an attack that adds to your STR damage, martial arts, HtH attack, you can use that instead: if you can do 12d6 with your Martial Punch you can use that figure to calculate the penalty, so you would only be at -2, or if your MD sfx is that you use your 11d6 EB to deflect attacks, you are at -3.

 

Alternatively you could apply no penalty to the deflection roll, but allocate the notional penalty anyway. If the penalty would be -2 or -3 then, on a successful deflection, you take full damage, as if you had 75% damage resistance. If the penalty would have been -4 or -5 then you take damage as if you had 50% damage reduction and if it were -6 or more, as if you had 25% damage reduction.

 

 

* I think there should probably be a distance penalty for unbalanced and un-aerodynamic objects as well as an OCV penalty. Perhaps Unbalanced OR Un-aerodynamic = max range = 2/3 distance. Unbalanced AND Un-aerodynamic = 1/3 distance.