Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

[AggroBoy]

Hi,

 

I have a player in a Superhero game who wants to apply a required PRE roll to a power. The thing is the character in question has a PRE roll of 26-, meaning that, even accounting for the active point penalty, the roll will fail only on three sixes.

 

The FAQ states that high skills should not modify the value of RSR, but I'm not sure what to do when it's a characteristic roll, since the value of those is always determined by the value of the characteristic in question.

 

Should I just apply the lowest value provided in the table (1/4, which would normally be for 15-) since the player in question has already spent a lot of points on his PRE, or should I follow the "a limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus" rule of thumb and declare it a -0 limitation, since failing one time in 216 isn't much of a drawback?

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[Steve Long]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

This is more of a "GMing advice" issue than a rules question, so I've moved it to the Discussion board to allow anyone to comment.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

If it doesn't Limit the Character, it isn't worth a Limitation value.

[Alibear]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

It is no limitation. It's worth no points. If he wants a 1/4 limitation he gets a 15- activation roll. However, the powers may warrant other limitations.

[braincraft]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

I can't think of any reason to have RSR instead of Activation Roll at the level the skill roll would be at.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

I can't think of a reason to have RSR in the game. Allow situational modifiers to apply to 'activation roll' and you are golden.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

He must have an extreme PRE (or a very low cost power) to have a 26- characteristic roll after subtracting the penalty based on the AP of the power. Still, penalties to the roll and/or reductions to his PRE would reduce the reliability of the power.

 

I would discuss this with the player. The focus of that discussion would be, quite simply, if you apply a limitation to the power, I am going to ensure that the limitation comes up in play, commensurate with the level of the limitation chosen. If you put a -1/2 on the power, resulting in a typical required roll of 21-, I will ensure that penalties to the roll and/or your PRE are sufficiently common that the skill roll will have a real chance of failure on a fairly regular basis. Since these penalties won't always be in effect, when they are, you will likely need a roll considerably better than the 14- you would have from a -1/2 limitation for Activation Roll.

 

In other words, when you set the limitation value, you are imposing an obligation on me to ensure the limitation is appropriately limiting.

 

I suppose the difference between my approach and simply denying the limitation is that I will let the player define how often this will be limiting, and I will ensure he gets the level of limitation he has selected. I might very well ask him to provide a listing of the circumstances in which he expects his limitation to cause significant difficulties, and assess the value I think appropriate for that level of frequency and severity.

[dsatow]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

Personally it would depend, The questions you have to ask yourself is this

 

1) Can someone else use the power? If yes and the limitation would affect them, its probably still at least -1/4.

2) Can the skill roll be modified such that with average penalties in combat its at or below at 15-? If yes, its probably at least worth a -1/4.

3) Finally, ask him when the limitation would limit his power. If he can't come up with a reasonable scenario or if he begins stretching common sense, then its worth a -0 limitation. An example would be the classic does not work in a vacuum for -1/4. This would be appropriate if say you were in the justice league/avengers as their missions would sometimes go out into space. It would not be if you were in a 1920's roaring gang buster style campaign in Chicago (even if Capone could have built a vacuum chamber to trap the heroes, why would he).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

Um, actually, RSR based on a characteristic IS reduced in value for exceptionally high rolls. If a character has a PRE roll of 26- the RSR is worth -1/4 vs -1.

 

What FAQ entry are you referring to that disputes this?

 

 

As far as, is this really limiting? Well, technically, yes it is, but conditionally.

 

1) 1 in 216 is rare, but if this is on a power the character uses very often it will occur eventually.

 

2) If the characters PRE is negatively adjusted or penalized, the corresponding roll gets worse. This introduces a chink that can be exploited in clever ways by opponents once they understand how the character's abilities work.

 

3) If the character has several powers with RSR: PRE Roll and he tries to activate some or all of them in the same Phase, the Active Point penalty is based on ALL the powers being activated, a single roll is made, and a failure is a total failure.

 

4) Skill roll penalties can be applied to RSR by the GM. What constitutes a valid penalty is up to you, circumstantially.

 

5) The most overlooked aspect of RSR is that the ability can only be used in cases where the RSR applies. So, in this case, powers with RSR: PRE Roll are only usable in cases where a PRE roll is appropriate in the first place. It wouldn't be usable on inanimate objects or other things that are immune to the effects of PRE. Depending on the nature of the power it is being applied to this may or may not be a factor. A Power like Stunning Presence: Energy Blast RSR: PRE Roll would only work against targets that could be affected by PRE in the first place, for instance.

 

 

 

 

Bottom line though, and this is the razor for ALL Limitations, is the player trying to apply the Limitation to model a concept, which they can describe to you convincingly, or are they just trying to shave points? Does the Lim make sense or is it just a gouge? In the former the player will work with you to make it matter because they WANT to model their character the way they see them working, in the later the player will avoid and resent attempts to play out the Lim because they really just wanted more points.

[lemming]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

Dang it Killer Shrike! You answered before me with a much more comprehensive answer of my thoughts!

[Alibear]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

 

In other words, when you set the limitation value, you are imposing an obligation on me to ensure the limitation is appropriately limiting.

 

Praise the Lord, Brother.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

RSR is not a limitation I like because, whilst I fully understand how tingly it makes people creating magic systems, it has two whacking great drawbacks to my mind:

 

1. The more points you spend on the main power, the more limiting it becomes and

2. How limiting it is depends on other factors in the build.

 

Now the second one is less of a factor if you are spending points to make a skill massive and the RSR is its only use - that is sorta self limiting - sorta - but when it is something that has intrinsic value anyway it is just silly.

 

Aside from the fact that I am SERIOUSLY worried about anyone having an 85 PRE (or is it skill levels with PRE?), I'd just look at the player and make monkey noises for a while then tell him to change the limitation to an activation roll, as it should have been all along.

 

I already (house rule) allow situational modifiers on activation rolls as a declared option at purchase for no change in price, and it works beautifully.

[Split Decision]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

why the heck would you allow a character with that kind of PRE... and why would he need powers when he can just walk into a room, demand the utter supplication of the bad guys, and throw them in jail?

 

130 PRE? waaah

[Shaft]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

A point to consider for RSR is that it's not always cost effective to get it to get it to the level where it's reliable. If RSR at -1/4 saves you (say) 6 pts on a power, but it costs you 19 points to bring the skill to 18- with active point penalties,, then you, you're strill down 13 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

A point to consider for RSR is that it's not always cost effective to get it to get it to the level where it's reliable. If RSR at -1/4 saves you (say) 6 pts on a power' date=' but it costs you 19 points to bring the skill to 18- with active point penalties,, then you, you're strill down 13 points.[/quote']

 

Another good reason why, IMO, RSR doesn't work well in Hero.

 

It DOES have advantages. It allows you to build a magic system (say) where you get better at using your spells without having to re-cost them all the time. That's good.

 

However, if we put our considerable talents to the task I'm sure we can think of a better way than this.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

I always compare RSR against Activation Rolls. If a 15- Activation is worth -1/4 than anything much higher than that is not going to get much of a Limitation. Of course this is without an Active Points penalty. If you have an Active Points penalty, then base your appropriate Limitation on what the net roll usually will be (most often).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

Personally, I like RSR quite a bit for a broad range of effects, campaigns, power levels, and purposes. I've always found it to work quite well, and have used it on some PC's and many NPCs to excellent results.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

The other thing with RSR vs. Activation is that once you activate a power with RSR, it stays up (if it's a Constant power), where as an activation has to be rolled every round.

[Vulcan]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

I think RSR has it's place as well.

 

For example, one of my characters (who had a weakness for friendly women...) had a talent for talking women into doing things for him. () I bought it as Mind Control with RSR vs. Seduction (along with a bunch of other limitations), with an opposed skill roll. GM ruled that if they beat me on a Seduction roll (as opposed to a default PRE roll for those without Seduction), they talked me into something instead...

 

It was fun either way!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

RSR is one of my absolutely favorite Limitations, actually. It just shouldn't be used where it doesn't make sense to use it.

 

I think it has tremendous value for a GM who is building frameworks for a setting (not necessarily a magic system, and not necessarily a heroic campaign). Though the value isn't quite as high as a random mix-n-match Limitation for individual players, I think it is still a good one if the players are reasonable and the GM is firm and...also reasonable. Heh.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

Stumbled over this character digging up an example for another thread; he has RSR Int for some abilities, and I modified the Lim to -0 for high stats, and his INT isnt _that_ high:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/HERONet/N3.HTML

 

 

IIRC I made this character for a HERO Central campaign and the GM was very restrictive; this was probably done to comply with the GM's preferences as its not something I would normally require. But anyway, it serves as an example for the "worth -0" camp.

[jwpacker]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

IIRC I made this character for a HERO Central campaign and the GM was very restrictive; this was probably done to comply with the GM's preferences as its not something I would normally require. But anyway' date=' it serves as an example for the "worth -0" camp.[/quote']

 

Interesting. Even with your additional +20 INT, given the active points in the power, you'd only have a 15-, which ought to be worth a quarter point, to be negotiated later if you increased his INT at some point.

 

BTW, what program do you use to draw your character sketches?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

I agree that RSR can make interesting builds, but it is not a well thought through limitation.

 

RSR is certainly different from Activation, and that makes a proper comparison more difficult, but not impossible. The main differences between RSR and activation are situational modifiers (which is a wash anyway, a +0 limitation) and, in effect, 'only to activate', which, if we follow the logic of other power limitations should either halve or double the limitation (cf 'extra time'). That is a far better way of doing it: clearly you get better value from RSR for constant powers than for instant powers at present, without any cost differentiation.

 

So all we need to get rid of RSR is a +0 limitation and a 'halves value for constant powers only to activate' limitation.

 

The other thing RSR can do is Skill v Skill rolls, which is problematic with an activation roll conversion, but by no means impossible. I'd suggest making the limitation worth an additional -1/2 and applying a penalty - the opponent makes the relevant skill roll and for every point they make it by, you subtract 1 from your activation roll (and you can have a -1/4 lim: for every 2 points they make the roll by you subtract a point). The activation table can be extended too.

 

I think that covers all the bases, and makes much more sense to have a single limitation that does the lot.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

Interesting. Even with your additional +20 INT' date=' given the active points in the power, you'd only have a 15-, which ought to be worth a quarter point, to be negotiated later if you increased his INT at some point.[/quote']

Some of them are 17-, but anyway, it must have been the GM. He had lots of overly restrictive tendencies, so much so that in the end I opted not to play in his campaign.

 

 

BTW, what program do you use to draw your character sketches?

 

Photoshop. For the Timm-style ones I use Timm-style templates as references and sometimes just about as is with whatever mods are necessary to depict the character in question. So, for example, N3's gun is Mr. Freezes gun. I could draw a custom one, but I liked the way the Freeze one looked and it was ready made

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extremely high Charactaristic used in REQUIRES SKILL ROLL

 

I agree that RSR can make interesting builds, but it is not a well thought through limitation.

 

RSR is certainly different from Activation, and that makes a proper comparison more difficult, but not impossible. The main differences between RSR and activation are situational modifiers (which is a wash anyway, a +0 limitation) and, in effect, 'only to activate', which, if we follow the logic of other power limitations should either halve or double the limitation (cf 'extra time'). That is a far better way of doing it: clearly you get better value from RSR for constant powers than for instant powers at present, without any cost differentiation.

 

So all we need to get rid of RSR is a +0 limitation and a 'halves value for constant powers only to activate' limitation.

 

The other thing RSR can do is Skill v Skill rolls, which is problematic with an activation roll conversion, but by no means impossible. I'd suggest making the limitation worth an additional -1/2 and applying a penalty - the opponent makes the relevant skill roll and for every point they make it by, you subtract 1 from your activation roll (and you can have a -1/4 lim: for every 2 points they make the roll by you subtract a point). The activation table can be extended too.

 

I think that covers all the bases, and makes much more sense to have a single limitation that does the lot.

 

I disagree. What about situational modifiers? What about the fact that you can build a power objectively, and have different characters better or worse at it depending on their level of skill WITHOUT re-costing the power? RSR is a hell of a lot more versatile, with a lot more detail and potential for customization, than Activation Roll. I think RSR and Activation Roll are both indispensable for their own reasons.