Good resource for travel distances/day?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

I guess the other thing to add is that horses walk at 4 miles per hour and can gallop short distances (on really good terrain, not heavily burdened) at 30 miles per hour, but... I am assuming that they can only travel 12 to 15 miles per day without risking injuring the horse.

[Markdoc]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

To boil it down to the oversimplified basics:

 

2 miles per hour, 6 hours/day of traveling by land.

 

Multiple by 2 if running at breakneck speeds. (This risks damaging the vehicle, losing troops, twisting one's ankle if done too often)

 

Divide by 2 if heavily burdened (more than 50 lb of gear for a normal adult male). (Thanks, gojira)

 

Pick one:

Multiple by 1.5 for really good conditions (good paved roads)

Multiple by 1 for average conditions

Divide by 2 for rough terrain (forest, rough grounds, hills)

Divide by 3 for really poor conditions (heavy snow, swamps, mountains)

 

If one does more than 6 hours/day on land, this also risks damaging the vehicle, losing troops, twisting one's ankle if done too often.

 

 

Now all we need is a system for calculating how much damage for exceeding the recommended limits.

 

That doesn't sound too far off, actually. I'd just make a couple of small changes. Drop the 6 hours thing, and instead work out how many hours are available for travel. So if you are traveling a good road with inns, you can walk 10 or even 12 hours a day, knowing that you can get food and a place to sleep at the end of the day. If you are traveling with plenty of food, that'll add to your encumbrance, but you don't need to forage - which means you need only take an hour or so to make camp and food. If you are foraging, you are going to need to spend half to 2/3rds of your time doing that instead of traveling. Most foraging people spend 3-8 hours a day doing so, depending on how easy food is to obtain.

 

As for damage, I'd simply inflect LTE loss - when they run out of END, they start to take Long Term STUN loss and if they run out of STUN, they either collapse or make an EGO roll to keep going - at which point they start losing BOD.

 

cheers, Mark

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

Ok, I updated the chart to include a x2 modifier for roads and inns. And a clarification that both "good roads" and "good roads with inns" reflect the ability to travel longer (not faster) which gives you 9 and 12 hours respectively.

 

I recommend using the temperature rules and lose 1 REC per 20 minutes of excess traveling. At 0 REC, you might go a little farther by burning STUN for END, (say 5 STUN per minute which is generous) and then slowly dying (say 1 BODY per minute which is also generous).

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

Except that your noble boy is making the same time as an experienced marathon runner. Said runner has people waiting for him along the route with energy drinks and water, is carrying nothing heavier than a singlet and is wearing modern running shoes on a good flat surface. And at the end of 4 hours, said runner is usually close to the end of his tether. We're not talking about "moving at a good pace". At 6 miles per hour, we're talking about moving at a jog/run the whole time, the whole time, or walking interspersed with fast running.

 

It's certainly possible for your well bred boy to keep this up half a day under optimal conditions. It's not reasonable to assume he can move at that speed for a full day, and utterly implausible that he can keep it up for several days.

 

 

 

Hmmm. How do I put this politely ... ridiculous? Crazy? The world record over 100 miles is nearly 12 and a half hours. The holder is not only a professional runner who does nothing but run, and is prepared by the best medical team his sponsors can afford, but he also got support along the way, continual rehydration, trained for the event for years in advance and required rehydration and therapy afterwards. There have been accounts from antiquity of people who ran astonishing distances - over 50 miles in some cases. Many of them died.

 

Essentially you are suggesting your well-bred boy can casually outperform the very best professional sports and careful preparation, plus excellent nutrition can produce today. You assume humans run like machines (a common assumption in the era of cars). It's not true. Here's an example. The US 100 mile record holder also runs different length races, so we have his time. In a marathon, he can do 2 1/2 hours, for an astonishing speed of over 12 MPH. Over 62 miles, he took 7 hours, cutting his speed to a bit under 9 MPH. Over 100 miles he took 12 1/2 hours, so the speed is now down to under 8 MPH and over a multiday race, he managed 150 miles in 24 hours of running for a bit over 6 MPH. And at that speed he is literally one in a hundred million - there's very, very few professional runners who can turn in those kinds of performances.

 

In other words, your 6 MPH sustained speed is at the absolute cutting edge of what a human - under optimum conditions, carrying nothing and with assistance all along the way - can manage and not die.

 

 

 

Infantry speed. Well, there's plenty of information there. The infamous Ruck March that applicants to US rangers or US Navy SEALs have to pass is 18 miles with a 50 lb pack in 4.5 hours. Obviously, US special forces are made of much feebler stuff than your well-bred Greek boy!

 

What's interesting is that when we look back across history, the numbers are pretty consistent. Lord Robert's famous forced march on Kabul - in which troops traveled as lightly as possible, using pack animals for their loads and which took no wheeled transport managed 15 miles a day, sometimes as much as 20. They lost men along the way - a few couldn't bear the pain and committed suicide, others dropped out and were never seen again. Hundreds of camels were bought on route to cary those who could no longer walk. That was double the standard day's march for the British army of the time.

 

It's also the exact same speed that Alexander the Great and his troops managed on the famous forced march from Harran to the crossing of the Tigris, which outmaneuvered his enemies: 215 miles in 14 days, or about 15 miles a day. There's plenty of similar examples (Alexander's forced march to Gaugamela over 287 miles, took 21 days - also a speed of about 14 miles a day).

 

Basically, over the last 3000 years the speed of infantry marching on foot without wagons has topped out at 15 miles a day - 20 on a really good day, and that's a punishing regimen that only the best manage. More normal speeds for large groups of men are about half that.

 

Soldiers on foot can manage better, over short periods. Stonewall Jackson's famous forced march to Mannassas managed 54 miles over 2 days - a pretty respectable 26 miles a day, but for a much short period than Lord Robert's troops. He was also marching around the enemy's flank and not expecting much combat - which is probably a good thing. As Grant said in his memoirs (chapter 28) "I did not believe this possible because of the distance and the condition of the roads, which was bad; besides, troops after a forced march of twenty miles are not in a good condition for fighting" This is on the same scale as the famous light infantry march to Talavera (56 miles in just under two days) during the Peninsula wars, or General mile's forced march in the capture of Geronimo.

 

That suggests that light order soldiers - or soldiers in smaller groups - can manage 25-30 miles a day and as much as 50 if they are not carrying much and really push it to the limit of human endurance, but that's not a speed that can be sustained.

 

 

 

There's no question that horses are faster - if you are pushing the horse. However to maintain high speeds, horses need plenty of rest, and lots of food and water. Over long trips (more than a day or two), the amount of fodder and rest required will keep cavalry to a speed not very different from infantry. That's not an internet meme, but a constant observation from thousands of years of warfare.

 

If you look here, you get a list of many famous mounted forced marches. They are further than the infantry can manage - but only by a factor of about 1.3 without remounts and 2 with remounts over short periods - and accepting losses in animals. Groups like the Pony Express, which covered huge distances, swapped horses out every hour or so, so to cover 150 miles, a rider might use 9-12 horses.

 

More normally, light cavalry could go 24-30 miles in a day and 50 odd in a forced march - or up to 75 miles if they wanted to maintain a killing pace - though these numbers drop dramatically in bad going or if supplies are not available en route - Alexander's infantry got to Tigris ahead of Darius' light cavalry and the British light infantry got to Talavera ahead of the light cavalry (even though they started together) - in both cases a road over a mountain pass had to be negotiated, and in both cases, the cavalry were slowed by a shortage of fodder.

 

cheers, Mark

 

My 100 mile day is actually 16 hours, so not the world record. You're right, though. It is a very high end estimate of what is possible, or, since I left out breaks, not so possible. I also pulled my "4 mph" out of my rear. Wolseley gives the British army quick march as 3.5 MPH.

The 50 mile day (over the 16 hours again), though, I'll hold out as something practical for an athletic youngster, and something that he or she could probably repeat the next day, and perhaps the next after that, maybe even for 4--5 days without taking a rest day.

I'm certainly not making up the notion of a two day walk over the 127km route over the spine of the Cascades on the Dewdney Trail between Hope and Princeton, British Columbia. It is well-attested old-timey feat --and, of course, depends very heavily on the quality of the trail. Though on the second day the walker would just keep going (down, towards the lit valley bottom, which would be insane on a mountain trail if the Dewdney were not a wagon road) until they reached Princeton, and this would probably be a "day march" of more than 16 hours.

 

I'm certainly not advocating taking extreme distances as the norm. What I'm saying is that people can, and have, covered remarkable cross-country distances in the past, and even more remarkable ones today. Which is why I suggested a Con roll-based mechanic.

 

Now, armies marching is a more complicated business. It would not be uncommon for the actual distance an invididual soldier covers to be considerably more than the 15--20 road mile distance laid out by the staff, and for it to be remarkably arduous. Infantry certainly has to give up the good part of the road to the baggage. On the best old-timey roads, there will be a footpath on the far side of the ditch. At worst, the roadbed just sloughs away into a planting, and they'll be snagging their sleeves on a hedge and picking their way through uneven and debris-ridden ground.

Or, anyway, this is the consideration that the staff has to take a priori. As Wolseley observes, marches are planned for 6 mile stages early in a campaign as a conditioning measure, and for 15--20 mile increments at the peak of operations because you have to ensure that soldiers will be fit to fight at the end of a march.

Note that the advance guard (light infantry, grenadiers and even pioneers, as well as cavalry) will cover a considerably greater distance through rougher terrain than the main column. If you push the main column to the limits of what it is capable of, you give up the security of advanced guard cover, which is a Bad Idea.

Now, sometimes this was done. There have been many heroic forced marches in history. They might be a little more indicative of distances covered by an adventuring party, in that the cautions I've listed above are thrown to the wind, but they are still not that indicative.

 

Okay: here is where I would go with all this:

At no Long-term Endurance Cost (or 4/day if you want more 'realism'), assuming a negligible load (50% Casual Strength or less).

10 Con: 6"/round=3mph (walking); 4.5 mph walk/run/walk

15 Con: 6"/round; but 3.5mph; 5.2mph walk/run/walk

20 Con: 3.5mph walking, because physiological maximum; but 6mph walk/run/walk.

25 Con: 8mph, straight jog.

You can Push to increase these figures at endurance cost, and figure out road distances on the basis of passage of time. I tried to work out a system based on Speed, but it produced crazy results, so I've deleted it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

My 100 mile day is actually 16 hours' date=' so not the world record. You're right, though. It is a very high end estimate of what is possible, or, since I left out breaks, not so possible. I also pulled my "4 mph" out of my rear. Wolseley gives the British army quick march as 3.5 MPH. [/quote']

 

Right - it's 120 steps a minute, which is exactly the same pace as the old Roman quick march .... neither of which were intended for long term use.

 

The regular march in both cases is 100 steps to the minute, or about 2.8 miles an hour - which is what an experienced hiker will do. That's what we should be looking at for a fit, experienced adult male.

 

cheers, Mark

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

Ok, let's try adding another factor, let's call it "unit quality":

 

2 miles per hour, 6 hours/day of traveling by land. (This is just the basic assumption.)

 

Multiple by 2 if running at breakneck speeds. (This risks damaging the vehicle, losing troops, twisting one's ankle if done too often)

 

Divide by 2 if heavily burdened (more than 50 lb of gear for a normal adult male). (Thanks, gojira)

 

Pick one:

Multiple by 2 for ideal conditions (good paved roads with inns) * (suggested by Markdoc)

Multiple by 1.5 for really good conditions (good paved roads) *

Multiple by 1 for average conditions

Divide by 2 for rough terrain (forest, rough grounds, hills)

Divide by 3 for really poor conditions (heavy snow, swamps, mountains)

 

* This reflects being able to travel longer in such conditions (9 and 12 hours respectively) and not (necessarily) an increase in speed. (clarification)

 

Type of Unit (choose one):

Multiple by 3 if unit is perfect.

Multiple by 2 if unit is supremely fit and trained.

Multiple by 1.5 if unit is noticeably better than average.

Multiple by 1 if unit is average.

Divide by 2 if unit is poor.

Divide by 3 if unit is wounded or otherwise extremely poor quaility.

 

One can travel longer than this, but this also risks damaging the vehicle, losing troops, twisting one's ankle if done too often.

 

I think this covers it, now it is left to individual GM's to figure out "unit quality" and "travel conditions" which in Fantasy Hero is going to be very game dependent.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

Right - it's 120 steps a minute' date=' which is exactly the same pace as the old Roman quick march .... [b']neither of which were intended for long term use[/b].

 

The regular march in both cases is 100 steps to the minute, or about 2.8 miles an hour - which is what an experienced hiker will do. That's what we should be looking at for a fit, experienced adult male.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

Well, technically the world record for the 50 km racewalk is over 12km/hour. That's obviously not (nearly) the standard we would hold out for campaigning infantry or travelling adventurers. But because of the nature of their duties, the light infantry and grenadiers of the advanced guard would have to spend a great deal of time, at worst their entire march, at quick march paces. Just as well for them that they probably wouldn't spend more than 7 hours actually marching, no?

 

As for adventurers, we ought to make some room for heroics here. Strider the Ranger should absolutely be able to make a quick march pace, even over difficult terrain, although you might want to make him pay for it in his build. (Talent: Striding (+2" Running, 0 End (+1/2, 6 points.)

Though since he's with a party, he'll probably end up using this power to walk circles around the fat halflings, yelling at them to hurry up.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

I think you're mixing miles and km when arguing about that two-day feat.

[gojira]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

I hear NASA had that problem too, once.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

I think you're mixing miles and km when arguing about that two-day feat.

 

Well, I'm making one claim, that 50 miles from midnight to midnight is possible, and a longer distance conceivable (note, "conceivable," not "normal"), depending on weights carried, road conditions and logistical support, and that the walker could probably repeat the feat the next day.

And I'm making an observation, that the 127km distance of the Allison Pass section of British Columbia Provincial Highway 3 between Hope and Princeton, a road that goes over the spine of the Cascades (a 6500ft elevation gain and loss), used to be counted as 2 days travel.

That, of course, being because

i) at the end of the day the walkers staggered into a hotel near midnight, ii) the next leg of the trip was by train, not walking.

iii) the route was very good by mountain road standards. (Less so when they paved it in 1934, but that's another story entirely.)

iv) there's a lot of daylight at 49 degrees North in midsummer.

[Cancer]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

I hear NASA had that problem too' date=' once.[/quote']

 

No, the one that killed Mars Climate Orbiter was a different imperial/metric screwup, in the units of force. 1 pound force ~= 4.45 newtons.

[Kristopher]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

No' date=' the one that killed Mars Climate Orbiter was a different imperial/metric screwup, in the units of force. 1 pound force ~= 4.45 newtons.[/quote']

 

The mainstream press kept talking about meters/feet for that one.

 

Imagine that, the press getting a detail wrong. Wonders never cease.

[gojira]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

Newtons are measured in kg meters / second^2, and pounds force are measured in lb feet / second^2. So the press got the meters vs. feet thing at least partially right.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

Though since he's with a party, he'll probably end up using this power to walk circles around the fat halflings, yelling at them to hurry up.

At least they'll save him time spent foraging, as the crumbs left over from one of their several breakfasts would probably sustain him for the whole day.

[Cancer]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

The mainstream press kept talking about meters/feet for that one.

 

Imagine that, the press getting a detail wrong. Wonders never cease.

 

Newtons are measured in kg meters / second^2' date=' and pounds force are measured in lb feet / second^2. So the press got the meters vs. feet thing at least partially right.[/quote']

 

I expect that most of the press ... certainly approximately all of the editorial staffs in the press ... had never heard of a newton of force, and was profoundly confused about pounds being a unit of force rather than of weight. Editors are well known for their tendency to change things that may or may not be right but they don't understand into things that are wrong but they think (wrongly) that they understand.

[CUnknown]

Re: Good resource for travel distances/day?

 

This is what I do, who knows how realistic it is.

 

Afoot (12 hours/day, includes rest stops)

30 miles by road

25 miles over easy terrain or trail

20 miles over rugged terrain (hills, forest, etc.)

10 miles over very rugged terrain (jungle, mountains, etc.)

Encumbrance 0-10%: -0%

11-25%: -25%

26-75%: -50%

76-99%: -75%

Lowest Recovery is 1-6: +0%

7-8: +10%

9-10: +20%

11-12: +25%

13+: +30%

 

• Force march allows travel up to 18 hours/day, requires an EGO roll, and gives a -1 to all actions on the following day, including EGO rolls. This carries over to the next day if force march continues.

  
  

• Trailblazing skill increases movement by 5% per point made by for the group, to a maximum of how quickly movement would be taking place on a trail.

  
  

Mounted (12 hours/day)

Light mount: 40 miles by road

35 miles over easy terrain or trail

25 miles over rugged terrain (hills, forest, etc.)

5 miles over very rugged terrain (jungle, mountains, etc.)

Medium mount: 35 miles by road

30 miles over easy terrain or trail

20 miles over rugged terrain (hills, forest, etc.)

5 miles over very rugged terrain (jungle, mountains, etc.)

Heavy mount: 30 miles by road

25 miles over easy terrain or trail

15 miles over rugged terrain (hills, forest, etc.)

5 miles over very rugged terrain (jungle, mountains, etc.)

Cart or Wagon: 30 miles by road

20 miles over easy terrain or trail

10 miles over rugged terrain (hills, forest, etc.)

0 miles over very rugged terrain (jungle, mountains, etc.)

 

• Movement values assume the appropriate TF, without it, movement is cut in half.

  
  

• Switching out mounts twice a day doubles movement.

  
  

• Forced movement is possible as well, instead of an EGO roll, use Animal Handling.

  
  

• Riding skill increases movement by 5% per point made by.

  
  

• Animals get one free level of encumbrance.