Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

[Spence]

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In the thread “Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?” NuSoardGraphite asked: “Another commonality in Mecha anime is Thought Control. How would you represent Thought Control in your mecha campaigns?”

 

It got me to thinking about Mecha, Giant Robots and how I would characterize them in Hero. The first thing is to try and define just what kinds of Mecha there. To me the types are not simply related to physical form or cosmetics, but on how they would be written up. Hero designs not from the points, but from intent and effect. Armor and weapons are more add-on’s than the central core of the Mecha. Following this line of thought I can come up with 2 broad categories. To me they are different: Giant Robots and Mecha.

 

Let’s take Giant Robots. There are two basic types Un-Piloted and Piloted.

 

An Un-Piloted Giant Robot is just that, a self controlling, intelligent (to some degree) robot.

 

A Piloted Giant Robot can have a pilot, but can still operate independently. If it needs a pilot it is usually to push or operate some kind of safety interlock for the ‘big weapon’ or some other device that the builders didn’t want the Giant Robot to be able to activate on his own.

 

Now lets look at Mecha. They are vehicles and are next to useless without an active pilot. They can contain AI’s, autopilots and other sophisticated tech. But except for the a autopilot ‘return to base’ type action, they cannot do much of anything unless directly commanded by the pilot. Mecha can be broken down into three main types each directly related to its control system. I call the three systems: Pilot Control, Pilot Mimic and Direct Pilot Interface.

Pilot Control Mecha: The Mech is like a tank. Push the lever and it walks, crank that wheel and the torso pivots, waldos control arms, and so on. Some are more advanced than others, but in the end the pilot is strapped into a seat and uses buttons, levers and switches.

 

Pilot Mimic Mecha: These Mechs are like Pilot Control Mecha except their movement is controlled by a ‘rig’ worn by the pilot. Think of the loader in Aliens. The rig tracks the pilots body movements and translates them to the Mecha and the Mecha moves. Bend your arm and the Mechs arm bends. If the pilot runs, the Mecha runs. This enables the pilot to maneuver the Mech by instinct and more easily perform complicated operations. Other functions are still performed with switches and controls.

 

Direct Pilot Interface: This has become the most common type of control in the Anime I have watched, either full blown or partial. Be it by neural interface or magic, the Mecha response to the pilots intent and thoughts directly. Via a cable stuck into the back of the head or a magic crystal in the forehead, the Pilot controls the Mecha as if it was his own body.

 

Pretty much all the Mecha and Giant Robots I have ever read or watched fall into one of the five. When building a M/GR in Hero determining the type of control system (or type if M/GR) is the key item. After that everything else, power plant, weapons, armor, defenses, and so on are all garnish to be added.

 

So the question becomes “how to model each control system in Hero.

 

Giant Robot Un-Piloted – Build as a character

Giant Robot Piloted – Build as a character

Pilot Control Mecha – Straight build as a vehicle

Pilot Mimic Mecha – Straight build as a vehicle

Direct Pilot Interface Mecha – This one is more tricky. I am actually leaning to trying a multiform with this. But I haven’t ironed out details yet.

 

Thoughts......

 

 

rocks......

 

 

Little guys in white jackets?

[Beast]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

you could just buy all the mecha type stuff as OHID and physical manifistation

so pretty much what the pilot can do out side of the mech he can do in the mech

might need to add some kind of disad or limitation if the mecha has to be tuned to the pilot

[Spence]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

you could just buy all the mecha type stuff as OHID and physical manifistation

so pretty much what the pilot can do out side of the mech he can do in the mech

might need to add some kind of disad or limitation if the mecha has to be tuned to the pilot

 

I think I see where you are going with the OHID. I assume we are talking about Direct Pilot Interface Mecha. Do you mean to apply the OHID to the Mecha build with the mecha as a vehicle or as a lim on the multiform?

 

My stumbling block with the multiform is I want the effect to have the mecha remain in existence but inert when the pilot ‘transforms’ back to human. Rather than the pilots body actually transforming into the mecha multiform, the transformation would consist of him climbing into/melding/whatever with the mech. That would mean if the pilot could not change forms into the mech unless he was at the physical location of the mech. This is the lim I am having problems with. I have only been able to flip through the Ult Metamorph so I don’t know if there is something there that would help.

 

I also want the mech to be able to sustain damage even if the pilot was not there. Focus should be able to sim that.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

I would build the Un-Piloted Giant Robot as an Automaton, and the Piloted Giant Robot as a Vehicle with INT.

[Beast]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

the limitations would be directly to the pilot

so his mecha is still there should he get out of it

I would only use multiform if the mecha changed modes of movement or gave up versatiity for raw firepower(think when Megatron becomes a very powerful pistol but cannot move on his own so another must wield him)

 

I think I see where you are going with the OHID. I assume we are talking about Direct Pilot Interface Mecha. Do you mean to apply the OHID to the Mecha build with the mecha as a vehicle or as a lim on the multiform?

 

My stumbling block with the multiform is I want the effect to have the mecha remain in existence but inert when the pilot ‘transforms’ back to human. Rather than the pilots body actually transforming into the mecha multiform, the transformation would consist of him climbing into/melding/whatever with the mech. That would mean if the pilot could not change forms into the mech unless he was at the physical location of the mech. This is the lim I am having problems with. I have only been able to flip through the Ult Metamorph so I don’t know if there is something there that would help.

 

I also want the mech to be able to sustain damage even if the pilot was not there. Focus should be able to sim that.

[Spence]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

the limitations would be directly to the pilot

so his mecha is still there should he get out of it

I would only use multiform if the mecha changed modes of movement or gave up versatiity for raw firepower(think when Megatron becomes a very powerful pistol but cannot move on his own so another must wield him)

 

Then we are back to the original problem. How are you gong to model the direct control interface? What makes Pilot A able to meld/interface with Mecha B? Direct Pilot Interface style pilots are generally unique (this is also usually the reason they keep the whinny kid in the mech ) or very very rare.

 

A Direct Pilot Interface Mecha usually operates as if the pilot and mecha are one and the same. Not anything like Mecha that require 'piloting'. With multiform you 'become' the new form and have all the new abilities, or essentially what a Direct Pilot Interface Mecha is. At least IMO.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

Then we are back to the original problem. How are you gong to model the direct control interface? What makes Pilot A able to meld/interface with Mecha B? Direct Pilot Interface style pilots are generally unique (this is also usually the reason they keep the whinny kid in the mech ) or very very rare.

 

A Direct Pilot Interface Mecha usually operates as if the pilot and mecha are one and the same. Not anything like Mecha that require 'piloting'. With multiform you 'become' the new form and have all the new abilities, or essentially what a Direct Pilot Interface Mecha is. At least IMO.

I can think of two ways to do this, depending on concept and worldview:

 

1) The mech is a Vehicle with INT, and the interface is built as Mind Link to the pilot.

 

2) The mech is a straight Vehicle, but the Vehicle and pilot Combine together (probably using the Multiform method) into either a Vehicle with INT and EGO, or a regular character, depending on whether that form takes STUN damage.

[Spence]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

I can think of two ways to do this, depending on concept and worldview:

 

1) The mech is a Vehicle with INT, and the interface is built as Mind Link to the pilot.

 

2) The mech is a straight Vehicle, but the Vehicle and pilot Combine together (probably using the Multiform method) into either a Vehicle with INT and EGO, or a regular character, depending on whether that form takes STUN damage.

 

#1 - Better idea than mine. Low Int, no Ego for none sentient, Increase if needed. Much better idea... Thanks

 

#2 – Pretty much the idea I have been playing with. It’s the combining thing and the unmanned mecha I have having issues with

[ghost-angel]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

It's a Special Effect of Piloting the thing.

 

At best: Physical Limitation: Requires Pilot To Have Neural Interface Jack and/or Psionic Capability

 

anything else is overcomplicating a fancy steering wheel.

 

Unmanned Mech are either Automatons - or have (wait for it) ... an AI.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

My opinions:

 

Giant Robot, unmanned: Can be made either as a character (Automaton) or as a Vehicle with an AI. Either way works. My personal preference is as Vehicle with an AI, so it interacts with other mecha in the exact same way.

 

Giant Robot, piloted: As a Vehicle with an AI. Since a pilot can get in and override or share control with the AI, this should pretty much always be written up as a vehicle.

 

Mecha:

 

Mecha should all be written up as a vehicle, because the pilot gets inside and drives it around. It is what it is.

 

However the different types that Spence laid out aren't necessarily ways to writing up the Mecha, but simply require different power constructs to represent differing methods of control.

 

Standard controls: build mecha as vehicle as is.

 

Mimic contols (aka Reflex controls): Give a bonus to piloting skill levels and possibly adds some DEX and SPEED bonuses to a vehicle being piloted in this manner. Also allows for the character to use his own Martial Arts maneuvers while in the mecha using +1: Use art with Mecha weapon element.

 

Neural controls (cyberlinkage, thought control, mecha melding etc). This should give significant bonuses to both the pilot and mecha at the same time (Aid/Succor). The base power should probably be Mind Link. In the case of Neural linkage, the Mecha should have the mind link power (it is equipment inside the mecha that allows the mental merger). In the case of a Psionic character who can link with his mecha, the character should have Mind link (or in some cases, both the character and mecha should posses it). In some cases, the Mind Link power should have the Feedback limitation so that when the Mecha takes damage, the character also takes damage. This is always the case if the character and mecha "merge" into one entity.

Keep in mind also that a Neural linked mecha can and will read into and act upon the Psychological Disadvantages of a Linked pilot. In Macross Plus, the character Guld was Mind Linked into his Variable Fighter, and he had an errant thought about harming his rival...just for a moment and the VF acted upon that thought, causing his rival to crash. In many cases, this will cause the mecha to move and act on its own, rather than the pilot willing it to do so, such as in the case of a Mecha that will move to protect someone the pilot loves, or to attack a hated enemy even when the pilot wishes to flee etc.

It would also be fairly reasonable to have the Piloting rolls for Mind Linked mecha to be based upon Ego rather than Dex for such control methods.

 

More later. I can't post too long, I'm at work...

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

It's a Special Effect of Piloting the thing.

 

At best: Physical Limitation: Requires Pilot To Have Neural Interface Jack and/or Psionic Capability

 

anything else is overcomplicating a fancy steering wheel.

Or perhaps a focus, depending upon how or if the mecha is able to be stolen.

 

 

Unmanned Mech are either Automatons - or have (wait for it) ... an AI.

If you meant to say an unmanned Giant Robot, then I agree.

By Spence's definitions, an unmanned mecha is as useful as a driverless car. I think he was trying to make a semantic distinction between robots (autonomous characters/NPCs) and mecha (vehicles/equipment requiring a pilot).

[Spence]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

 

If you meant to say an unmanned Giant Robot, then I agree.

By Spence's definitions, an unmanned mecha is as useful as a driverless car. I think he was trying to make a semantic distinction between robots (autonomous characters/NPCs) and mecha (vehicles/equipment requiring a pilot).

 

Yes. The different control system/methods seem to make a better distinction of type that most others. At least IMO.

[Beast]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

you could just make it a personal focus instead of a universal

 

but then you would block your heroes from stealing enemy mecha should they be captured ,but then escape and are still in the enemy base or starship

 

unless you regularly have unlocked mecha laying around for them to steal

 

personal mecha should be near impossible to steal in the short time frame(1 hr IMHO)

unlocked mecha you just jump in and go ,but since it is not tuned to you it does not have your reaction time(say -3 to all rolls involving the unlocked mecha doing something)

 

 

Then we are back to the original problem. How are you gong to model the direct control interface? What makes Pilot A able to meld/interface with Mecha B? Direct Pilot Interface style pilots are generally unique (this is also usually the reason they keep the whinny kid in the mech ) or very very rare.

 

A Direct Pilot Interface Mecha usually operates as if the pilot and mecha are one and the same. Not anything like Mecha that require 'piloting'. With multiform you 'become' the new form and have all the new abilities, or essentially what a Direct Pilot Interface Mecha is. At least IMO.

[Spence]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

you could just make it a personal focus instead of a universal

 

but then you would block your heroes from stealing enemy mecha should they be captured ,but then escape and are still in the enemy base or starship

 

unless you regularly have unlocked mecha laying around for them to steal

 

personal mecha should be near impossible to steal in the short time frame(1 hr IMHO)

unlocked mecha you just jump in and go ,but since it is not tuned to you it does not have your reaction time(say -3 to all rolls involving the unlocked mecha doing something)

 

That is why I have categorized Mecha into 3 ‘types’.

 

Pilot Control Mecha

Pilot Mimic Mecha

Direct Pilot Interface Mecha

 

With the first two types being vehicles, any pilot with training can operate one. The DPIM is different. They can usually only be piloted by a single pilot but they can still be moved/stolen even if they can’t be operated by anyone with the resources.

 

And why I originally was thinking Multiform. The Pilot as human and then the Mecha+Pilot. The Mecha form would most likely be an OIF with other restrictions. But there are some alternatives being put forth that have me reevaluating.

 

In the end after combing through my Mecha related materials, the three types tend to encompass every mecha out there. And the two versions of robot cover the rest.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

I see a lot of people tossing out "Focus" or other constructs that require the Character to purchase the Mecha with points - bad move.

 

Think Heroic Game - Mecha are no more than equipment. You need to model it like it's a separate entity that anyone can get into.

 

Which is why the OP is trying to make a distinction between how a Mecha is piloted - you either have the training, or the equipment, or the raw capability.

 

Pilot Control Mecha: requirement: Transport Familiarity: Mecha

Pilot Mimic Mecha: requiremnet: Transport Familiarity: Mecha

 

the first two are semantics of how the thing translates what the pilot is doing - pushing buttons or moving themselves. Either one simply requires the proper training.

 

Pilot Direct Interface: now we're into beyond training. The Pilot has to actually have something special:

Perk: Mecha Interface Plug

Mind Link: Any Mecha

and possibly TF: Mecha if the GM so wants.

 

No matter how you cut it - it's a fancy steering wheel.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

I see a lot of people tossing out "Focus" or other constructs that require the Character to purchase the Mecha with points - bad move.

 

Think Heroic Game - Mecha are no more than equipment. You need to model it like it's a separate entity that anyone can get into.

 

Which is why the OP is trying to make a distinction between how a Mecha is piloted - you either have the training, or the equipment, or the raw capability.

 

Pilot Control Mecha: requirement: Transport Familiarity: Mecha

Pilot Mimic Mecha: requiremnet: Transport Familiarity: Mecha

 

the first two are semantics of how the thing translates what the pilot is doing - pushing buttons or moving themselves. Either one simply requires the proper training.

 

Pilot Direct Interface: now we're into beyond training. The Pilot has to actually have something special:

Perk: Mecha Interface Plug

Mind Link: Any Mecha

and possibly TF: Mecha if the GM so wants.

 

No matter how you cut it - it's a fancy steering wheel.

 

I agree with Ghost Angel. They are simply various methods of control.

 

I myself would go one step further and define specific bonuses based on the method of control. Many mecha shows have mecha with differing methods of control, and the ones with the more advanced methods of control generaly perform better. Thus I think Reflex type controls and Linkage controls should confer bonuses upon the mecha/pilot in order to simulate their superiority over standard controls.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

I've been thinking on this one... and the Driving Method of a vehicle plays an important part of the vehicle itself. At least ceonceptually.

 

It seems a Vehicle should have a Custom Disadvantage - and I'll just call it Piloting Disadvantage.

 

Standard: 0 pts - requires Transport Familiarity. One simply requires training; from rudimentary to complex. All Vehicles default to this level.

 

Advanced: 5 pts - not only does it require Training to learn how to pilot but it requires special equipment or abilities as well.

 

Highly Advanced: 10 pts - the vehicle doesn't just require training, but it requires advanced equipment or a rare abilities to pilot it.

 

The biggest difference between Advanced and Highly Advanced could simply be the difference been access to tech, or having a Character spend Points on inherent abilities to drive the vehicle.

 

some examples:

 

Standard: Car.

Advanced: A basic mech that requires a special harness and interface helment.

Highly Advanced: requires the pilot to have innate psionic ability, no matter how small.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

First requirement I think of-

 

LOTS OF DAKKA!

[DusterBoy]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

H'mm, for another take on a direct neural interface-operated "mecha", check out Dale Brown's "Day of the Cheetah" which features an advanced aircraft called the XF-34 Dreamstar.

 

For the mecha, I'd go with an Apache-style weapons-aiming system, so where you look is where the gun points, etc.

 

Also, MetalStorm and cold-launch technology would be useful for the missiles.

 

Plus, a holographic visor mounted HUD.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

I've been thinking on this one... and the Driving Method of a vehicle plays an important part of the vehicle itself. At least ceonceptually.

 

It seems a Vehicle should have a Custom Disadvantage - and I'll just call it Piloting Disadvantage.

 

Standard: 0 pts - requires Transport Familiarity. One simply requires training; from rudimentary to complex. All Vehicles default to this level.

 

Advanced: 5 pts - not only does it require Training to learn how to pilot but it requires special equipment or abilities as well.

 

Highly Advanced: 10 pts - the vehicle doesn't just require training, but it requires advanced equipment or a rare abilities to pilot it.

 

The biggest difference between Advanced and Highly Advanced could simply be the difference been access to tech, or having a Character spend Points on inherent abilities to drive the vehicle.

 

some examples:

 

Standard: Car.

Advanced: A basic mech that requires a special harness and interface helment.

Highly Advanced: requires the pilot to have innate psionic ability, no matter how small.

 

I think you've nailed it!

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Designing the perfect Mecha or Giant Robot.

 

The Un-Piloted Giant Robot sounds lie something you build as a character, with lots of points and some levels in Growth Always On to reflect its size. As the Transformers franchise shows, such robots can be as intelligent or stupid as you want them to be, and nimbler than one would expect for things that size -- in other words just like player-characters.

 

It would be relatively easy to do a campaign where the robots are the PCs and humans are NPCs of varying significance.