Partially limited Multipower

[Llasnad]

I cant figure out anyway to to do this, so I come to all of you. I have a character concept that involves an 80 point reserve multipower, but I only want 40 points worth of the MP to be based on a focus. He has the powers innately, but he requires a focus to make them truly effective, and I can not figure out anyway to make this work. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or help anyone can offer.

[Alibear]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

40 point get's the focus limitation. The other 40 doesn't.

 

eg. 40pt reserve with OAf would cost 20 points, the other 40 would be full price.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

I can understand the problem.

 

I think I would make the power based on two multipowers.

 

In the first multipower you would have a 40 point reserve which would have your base level powers within it.

 

In the second you would have a 40 point reserve based on the focus (as would all the slots). The slots would also be limited to adding to powers in the first multipower.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

I'd take Alibear's approach. 40 points of the Multipower pool and each slot take the focus limitation.

 

I seem to recall HD taking issue with that, in which case I'd:

 

- build it as 2 40 point multipowers, identical in all respects except one has the Focus limitation and the other does not.

 

- add the two together in play (whether it does so on the sheet is meaningless)

 

- ask myself why I use char gen SW that frustrates, rather than facilitates, my character design (I use Excel myself).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Strictly by the rules, you cannot partially-limit the reserve in that way. If you wanted to allow it anyway, I agree that the logical approach would be to apply the Limitation to 40 points of the reserve, and not to the other 40.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

The more complex but rules legal method would be to just build an 80 point Multipower with a Variable Limitation that covers all the Limitations that are not a standard part of any of the slots within.

 

example:

 

27 Multipower, 80-point reserve, (80 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Focus, Increased END, Concentration, Extra Time, etc...; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

The caveat is that using the Multipower without an OAF requires some combination of other Limitations totalling up to (-1) in value (like x3 Increased END).

 

With GM permission you could even say that one of the Variable Lim's is a custom one that sets all abilities to 'half power' (which fits you initial requirement perfectly).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Strictly by the rules' date=' you cannot partially-limit the reserve in that way. If you wanted to allow it anyway, I agree that the logical approach would be to apply the Limitation to 40 points of the reserve, and not to the other 40.[/quote']

 

Hmm. I suppose the reserve might qualify for a limitation if each slot had half of its utility focus based - so the reserve would be 80 points (half limited so real cost 60 points).

 

An ultra 16D6 EB slot in the multipower would also be limited and have a cost of (40+(40/2))/10 or 6 points but use 80 points of the reserve even if they can only fire 8D6 because of a missing focus.

 

I think HD would work with that, wouldn't it? Though you may have to pro-rate the custom limitation - but as written the OAF -1 would be equivalent to -1/3 and because we dont have that it might cost more under a -1/4 limitation....

 

Doc

 

(did that make sense to people?? I know what is in my head but nort sure I am expressing it very well!)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

No real idea if this is strictly rules legal (if not I have no idea why not), but this is how it would look on my character sheet:

 

60 Multipower: 80 point pool (40 points require an OAF)

6 slot 1 16d6 EB (only 8d6 without an OAF)

6 slot 2 16d6 Sight Flash (only 8d6 without an OAF)

6 slot 3 32/32 Force field at 1/2 END (only 16/16 at half END without an OAF)

[Kenn]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Maybe something like "Only 40 active points may be used with out the OAF ___________" (-1/2) or "Only 40 active points may be used with out the OIF ___________" (-1/4) would work?

 

Or, if one wants to get complex, build the 40 pt. Multipower as it exists without the focus.

 

Then build an Aid or Succor, with a maximum number of points it can add being 40 points, with a +2 advantage to affect several powers at once, and put the Focus limitation on this power.

 

http://www.rcuhero.net/hsheets/brainwave.htm

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

 

Or, if one wants to get complex, build the 40 pt. Multipower as it exists without the focus.

 

Then build an Aid or Succor, with a maximum number of points it can add being 40 points, with a +2 advantage to affect several powers at once, and put the Focus limitation on this power.

 

I tried this method using Hero Designer.

 

It was nearly impossible to get the Succor's real cost below 40 points.

[Kenn]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

I never said it would be easy or cheap. I said it would be complex.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

I never said it would be easy or cheap. I said it would be complex.

 

It's not a matter of complexity at all.

It just costs more than building a straight 80 point Multipower which makes it useless.

 

examples for comparison:

 

40 Basic 40 Active Example: Multipower, 40-point reserve

4u 1) Energy Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points) - END=4

4u 2) Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF (40 Active Points) - END=4

 

54 Succor Based Focus: Succor All Slots of Basic 40 Active Example 13d6+1 (standard effect: 40 points), any [special effect] power one at a time (+1/4), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (134 Active Points); OAF (-1), Self Only (-1/2) - END=12

 

80 Basic 80 Active Example: Multipower, 80-point reserve

8u 1) Energy Blast 16d6 (80 Active Points) - END=8

8u 2) Entangle 8d6, 8 DEF (80 Active Points) - END=8

 

53 Variable Limitation 80 Active Example: Multipower, 80-point reserve, (80 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Example options: Focus, Increased END (x3 = -1), Extra Time, Concentration, RSR, Side Effects, etc...; -1/2)

5u 1) Energy Blast 16d6 (80 Active Points) - END=8

5u 2) Entangle 8d6, 8 DEF (80 Active Points) - END=8

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

No real idea if this is strictly rules legal (if not I have no idea why not), but this is how it would look on my character sheet:

 

60 Multipower: 80 point pool (40 points require an OAF)

6 slot 1 16d6 EB (only 8d6 without an OAF)

6 slot 2 16d6 Sight Flash (only 8d6 without an OAF)

6 slot 3 32/32 Force field at 1/2 END (only 16/16 at half END without an OAF)

 

This is my answer as well. If it's not rules legal, then it should be.

 

In fact, if it's not rules legal the simple answer is two multis:

 

40 Multipower: 40 point pool

4 slot 1 8d6 EB

4 slot 2 8d6 Sight Flash

4 slot 3 16/16 Force field at 1/2 END

 

20 Multipower: 40 point pool, OAF

2 slot 1 +8d6 EB OAF

2 slot 2 +8d6 Sight Flash OAF

2 slot 3 +16/+16 Force field at 1/2 END OAF

 

It is, I believe, perfectly legal for a slot in one framework to modify a slot in another framework (doesn't even need to be for Slot 3, I note).

 

Technically, this is more flexible - I can use MP 1 to fire an 8d6 Flash or EB, and use MP 2 to provide a force field.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

...

 

It is, I believe, perfectly legal for a slot in one framework to modify a slot in another framework (doesn't even need to be for Slot 3, I note).

 

 

No.

 

from 5er page 310:

 

NO COMBINING OF FRAMEWORKS

A Power Framework can never be bought through another Power Framework. For example, a character cannot create a Multipower with his Variable Power Pool, or have an Elemental Control as a slot in a Multipower.

 

Characters can have as many Power Frameworks as they want and can afford to buy. However, a slot in a Power Framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another Power Framework, or the same or another Power Framework as a whole. For Example:

 

—a character cannot buy a slot in his Power Framework defined as “Energy Blast +8d6” to add to the Energy Blast 12d6 slot in the same Power Framework or another Power Framework

 

—a character cannot use an Adjustment Power in one of his Power Frameworks to Adjust that Framework, a slot within that Framework, another Power Framework, or a slot in another Framework (he may, however, Adjust another character’s Power Framework, or a slot within one; see below).

 

—a character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework.

[薔薇語]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Why not just build a single 80pt pool that only has 40pt powers in it? Then slap a limitation on the pool, and pool alone, that says something to the effect of "Only powers of the same name and identicle builds, except for the focus lim, may be used at the same time. -1/4." Then you build, inside this 80pt pool, identical pairs of any power you want in it, except for one of the two has the limitation "focus," place upon it.

 

This method has a few distinct advantages over the other methods. First is that the build is rather straight forward in its approach. This is to say that everything is kept in one single location for the character sheet and you don't need a logic degree to navigate the power builds. Next, is that it is a point saver, as you will not have to invest in a whole new pool. Next is that, to my knowledge at least, it is wholly book legal to do it this way.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

La Rose

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Why not just build a single 80pt pool that only has 40pt powers in it? Then slap a limitation on the pool, and pool alone, that says something to the effect of "Only powers of the same name and identicle builds, except for the focus lim, may be used at the same time. -1/4." Then you build, inside this 80pt pool, identical pairs of any power you want in it, except for one of the two has the limitation "focus," place upon it.

 

This method has a few distinct advantages over the other methods. First is that the build is rather straight forward in its approach. This is to say that everything is kept in one single location for the character sheet and you don't need a logic degree to navigate the power builds. Next, is that it is a point saver, as you will not have to invest in a whole new pool. Next is that, to my knowledge at least, it is wholly book legal to do it this way.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

La Rose

 

I'm not saying this wouldn't work as a house rule but it's not rules legal.

from my previous post:

 

a slot in a Power Framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another Power Framework

[薔薇語]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

I'm not saying this wouldn't work as a house rule but it's not rules legal.

from my previous post:

 

 

Ahh. Sorry I missed that, and was unaware of such a limitation. I don't like said limitation . Said limitation makes my cat cry

 

La Rose.

[Ice9]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Custom limitation seems the way to go with this: "Abilities are half power without OAF" for -1/2, and you're good to go - no issues setting that up in HD either.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Right. The Limitation (any limitation you want) can be applied to only the portion of the power you want. IIRC, in 4th Ed, the character Solitaire was built just like that. She had a focus, without which most of he powers were at half AP.

 

If Hero Designer doesn't let you do it, than that's a problem with Hero Designer.

 

And you can get around it by building a custome limitation: "Power at half strength without the OAF" -1/2. Instead of losing *all* the power when you don't have the focus (which would be a -1), you only lose *half* the power, thus a -1/2 lim.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

IMO the right cost for a power that only works at half power unless you have an OAF is 3/4 of the full cost*, which you can not manage with either -1/2 (it costs 2/3**) or -1/4 (it costs 4/5***).

 

The only way to get the cost right is to partially limit the power. If that is not a rules legal way to do it then the rules need changing. I think HD is a great piece of software, personally, and if you build it as two multipowers but define it as one then it doesn't offend against the rules. It just doesn't look as elegant as it might. It would be nice if HD could manage partially limited powers.

 

 

* 40 points + 40 points in an OAF = 60 points

 

** For an 80 point power, -1/2 is 53 points

 

*** For an 80 point power, -1/4 is 64 points

[Llasnad]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Thanks to everyone for posting your ideas. I may just have to make this character without HD, not that big of a problem since I havent been using it all that long.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

The only way to get the cost right is to partially limit the power. If that is not a rules legal way to do it then the rules need changing.

 

That's a debatable assertion.

Let's hope that it was already brought up in the appropriate 6e forum (now locked and being read by Steve).

 

However, according to 5er rules it is not a rules legal method.

See post #14 for details.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

That's a debatable assertion.

Let's hope that it was already brought up in the appropriate 6e forum (now locked and being read by Steve).

 

However, according to 5er rules it is not a rules legal method.

See post #14 for details.

 

I'm not suggesting combining two fameworks. I'm suggesting one big framework with the limitations only on half of it as per p 282: Partially Limited Powers. However the only way you can do that in HD, as far as I know, is to build two seperate MPs but treat them as one: you can only use SLOT 1 in the first with SLOT 1 in the second (not with SLOT 2).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

Custom limitation seems the way to go with this: "Abilities are half power without OAF" for -1/2' date=' and you're good to go - no issues setting that up in HD either.[/quote']

 

 

I might argue the (-1/2) value, as it is the same as the Variable Limitation approach suggested earlier, but this is would work.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Partially limited Multipower

 

I might argue the (-1/2) value, as it is the same as the Variable Limitation approach suggested earlier, but this is would work.

 

As long as the GM is willing to give you a bigger cost break than you asked for - the reserve will be (for an 80 point multipower) seven points cheaper and each slot will cost 5 points rather than 6.

 

Doc