Campaign Limits

[Dragon-D1]

Hello fellow Herophiles,

 

I am planning a new Champions Universe (350 pts) campaign soon and was wondering what advice you all have on limits on the campaign Active Points and such.

 

The current plan for my campaign to limit most powers/stats to 60 active points (except for a few with limited combat effectiveness, and those are limited to 80 pts), OCV/DCV limited to 10 (ECV to 13) counting levels but not maneuvers. Defenses are limted 20/15r for most characters and 30/20r for Brick types, same for Mental Defense (the higher value for Mentalists), other defenses are limited to 20/15r for all character types.

 

Also I have an idea for each character to choose a stat or power as his "Signature Power/Stat" which can have active points 10 higher than the normal limit, no one can have the same "Signature". Hopefully this gives each character something at which they excel (we have had problems in previous campaigns with a single player overshadowing all the others).

 

So, any comments about my plan or other ideas I could use. I would especially appreciate any advice on foreseeable problems with a new campaign.

 

All the players are new to Hero System, but I know a few will learn it quickly and soon be exploiting the system to the best of their ability.

 

Thanks All

[ghost-angel]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

First, I say throw out "limits for X Types" - character classes always make me chafe. In fact, allow "bricks" to have Defense as a Signature Power if they so want it. Remember - if you put points into one area, you're not putting them somewhere else.

 

Second, I've had some really good luck using a 12 Damage Class/75 Active Point cap. This way you can see some creative Powers, and Attacks gain a little more freedom with Advantages, especially ones that don't add directly to "attack capability"

 

I would put your Defense Limits at 12-15 Resistant, 25-30 Normal across the board. Don't single out an archetype here specifically. That's what your Signature Power Rule can be used for.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I already consider defense powers as a category for the signature ability.

 

I didn't think of separating the DC and active points limits, interesting.

 

We have 5 players in my game and it currently looks like we have one brick (maybe 2 with a multiform character) so I wanted to give the damage sponge some extra padding.

[Utech]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

Consider writing up a team of villains all at 350 points. Show the character sheets to your players. Explain in general terms how they work. Show the spread of Characteristics (especially Speed), Defenses, Active Points, Best Attack, points sunk into Skills, etc.

 

Then you can say, "You can build whatever you want, but the average values of all your characters ought to come in similar to the average values of this villain team. If your average attacks are much higher, you won't have any fun because you'll decimate the villains. If your average defenses are much higher, you won't have any fun because they won't be able to touch you. If your average points spent on Skills is much lower, you won't be able to get much done out of combat -- and you won't always be in combat."

 

Use the existing villains to help shape the new heroes. If one of the new heroes wants to be able to take a lot of damage, base his defenses on the best villain attacks. If one of the new heroes wants a very high Speed, base it on the best villain speed.

 

This is not to say that your heroes should copy the villains! Just that a group of typical villains gives your players some very useful reference points.

[sinanju]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

First' date=' I say throw out "limits for X Types" - character classes always make me chafe. In fact, allow "bricks" to have Defense as a Signature Power if they so want it. Remember - if you put points into one area, you're not putting them somewhere else.[/quote']

 

I agree with that. I'd give signature powers more than only a 10 point advantage, though. Maybe 20 or 25 points.

 

Second, I've had some really good luck using a 12 Damage Class/75 Active Point cap. This way you can see some creative Powers, and Attacks gain a little more freedom with Advantages, especially ones that don't add directly to "attack capability"

 

I especially like this idea. I like to build odd or complex powers, and providing some wiggle room for advantages that don't directly increase damage makes that a lot easier.

 

I would put your Defense Limits at 12-15 Resistant, 25-30 Normal across the board. Don't single out an archetype here specifically. That's what your Signature Power Rule can be used for.

 

I've been playing a character--a brick--whose "signature power" is defense. She's only moderately strong as bricks go, but with a resistant PD and ED of 40, she's virtually invulnerable. THAT, not her strength, is her shtick and it works quite well. (And despite that ridiculously high PD, a villain with an entangle attack and signature energy blast hammered her into unconsciousness last game session.)

[Alibear]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I'd reccomend 75 point attack powers but then I want quicker combats. I'd say get started but be ready to change if you think things are no working out as you want.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I would put your Defense Limits at 12-15 Resistant, 25-30 Normal across the board. Don't single out an archetype here specifically. That's what your Signature Power Rule can be used for.

 

At first I thought a 30 defense was going to be the limit, but after looking at villains at the same basic points it seemed it would be too hard for the villain to damage them. I don't want to have to use a master level villain to be able to damage the PCs.

 

Also these limits are only for the start of the campaign to emulate starting heroes, they will increase as the campaign ages.

 

Consider writing up a team of villains all at 350 points. Show the character sheets to your players. Explain in general terms how they work. Show the spread of Characteristics (especially Speed), Defenses, Active Points, Best Attack, points sunk into Skills, etc.

 

Then you can say, "You can build whatever you want, but the average values of all your characters ought to come in similar to the average values of this villain team. If your average attacks are much higher, you won't have any fun because you'll decimate the villains. If your average defenses are much higher, you won't have any fun because they won't be able to touch you. If your average points spent on Skills is much lower, you won't be able to get much done out of combat -- and you won't always be in combat."

 

I have already decided to work closely with the players to help them make their characters so I can control these things. The problem is that one of the players got a copy of the rules, made his character on his own and e-mailed it to me (he is the reason I came up with the OCV/DCV limits, he had a character with more than a 20 OCV/DCV if you included the levels he bought). We have exchanged around 10-15 e-mails so I could limit his character.

 

While I like the idea, I don't think the method you suggest would work in this case. Most of the characters will not be making their characters on their own, and I'm not sure how much it would limit the one who will (since he has looked at the example character in the book and that didn't seem to limit him).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

You also might want to cap SPD for all characters besides Martial Artists and Speedsters.

 

It ends up saving everyone points.

 

 

re: defense caps

 

The totals given are good for 'static' defenses but sometimes characters are built with the option to attack OR defend but not both.

 

You can see some examples of this in the last link in my sig below.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

One thing that did glare out a bit was the high ECV limit...

 

First off, I suspect that whatever limits you set you'll get a decent enough game as players will tend to maximise effectiveness within those limits.

 

As a matter of overall design I would want to ensure that:

 

1. Characters can be hit. This means either monitoring CV levels quite carefully or including effective AoE attacks (an AoE is NOT effective if it is th e only way to hit a target and, because of the power modifier cost, the target is barely going to feel it).

 

2. I'd want characters to go down after 2-4 hits, generally. Much more than that and the combats can drag.

 

My current design philosophy is that you build a human type character, you add in a power or ability, which can have a number of different uses (I have ice powers, which allow ice bolts and and icy armour. They don't double my speed and strength). I assume that The Gifted all have a decent CON (because otherwise things get a bit silly and I'd rather higher CON than higher DEF), and everyone takes SPD 4. I don't particularly mind if we have some very dangerous powers if the character wielding them is a bit fragile. That leads, in my experience, to combats that are very tactical and often quite short. I'm also largely ignoring actual point totals at present.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I forget who it was (RDUNeil?) but they were in a campaign with a Rule Of X where CV + SPD had to be less than or equal to 20; at the start.

 

As I recall it worked quite well for them in the campaign. But I've never played with such a limit personally.

 

If you want low defenses at the start, given 12 DCs as a non-signature top end, I suggest 9-12 Reistant and 20-25 Normal as caps.

 

And "average" 12D Roll gives you 42 Stun (and average range gives you roughly 37-47 Stun a hit). If you go much lower than 20 you will have short combats and/or a lot of Stunned Characters unless a high CON is common amongst the group. Even at 20 Defenses you run this danger.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I forget who it was (RDUNeil?) but they were in a campaign with a Rule Of X where CV + SPD had to be less than or equal to 20; at the start.

 

I think it was Trebuchet. There are a number of other such systems that have been mooted on the boards.

 

I have never played with that but have at times constructed straw men opponents against which I tested the PCs to see what kind of damage they dished out on average rolls, on rolls of 8 and on rolls of 14.

 

That helped me to get an eyeball on whether the character was underpowered, overpowered or about right (in relation to each other if not across the campaign as a whole).

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I believe Treb's was DC + SPD could not exceed 20.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

It was Treb yes (Thanks Doc)... was it DC + SPD? I can't remember anymore. *sighs*

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

One thing that did glare out a bit was the high ECV limit...

 

My rationale behind this is that I based my OCV/DCV limits on the fact that DEX is limited to 30 (I realized that the limit should actually be 20, but I decided to not count the free 10 point starting value) with the 60 active point limit and 30/3=10, the same calculation for EGO gives 13. I thought it was high too, but I wanted to have a logical basis for the rule so it ends up being a little higher.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I've had some really good luck using a 12 Damage Class/75 Active Point cap.

 

I've been thinking about this idea a lot, and it seems to me it would result in every attack having an advantage. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing it would make most villains less effective since they would require Hardened and other advantages on their defenses to make them able to survive more than a few segments. This would require me to build my villains to compensate for the special attacks, rather than to express the concept the villain is based on. The opposite case would happen if I adopted a similar rule for character defenses.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

.... and it seems to me it would result in every attack having an advantage.

 

It's been my experience that the most common Advantage used with such caps is usually Reduced END.

[secretID]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

It's easy to forget STUN as something to be limited. If I were starting one today, I'd go with:

 

10 OCV/OECV

12 DC

5 SPD

 

10 DCV/DECV

30 DEF/30 rDEF

40 STUN

 

I think this makes for pretty long combats.

 

I'd allow up to +20-25% for any one offensive category, with the same % deducted from another offensive category, and the same for defensive categories.

 

I don't see much value in limiting APs. I also don't see much reason to limit rDEF lower then DEF, since I don't really want PCs who are much easier to kill than knock out.

 

One big thing that's worked well for me: minimum expenditures on non-combat stuff and "flavor" stuff. I'd go with 40 non-com and 10 flavor. Non-com is defined pretty narrowly, and flavor has to be pretty much totally useless. When giving out XP, I let players buy non-com and flavor stuff more cheaply than combat stuff - 1:1.5 for non-com, and 1:3 for flavor.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

personally I allow flavour stuff for free.

 

In a superhero game I do not tend to play skill heavy scenarios - much more social and physical combat.

 

So bought skills tend to be limited to a couple Area Knowledges, Professional Skills, contacts and favours.

 

Other skills would be flavour in this case so PS: Cop would have flavour skills underneath it - buy PS 14- and I'd ask for (14-9) 5 flavour skills to be listed just to give a broad idea of what the PS should allow.

 

That gives the players the idea that the skills (in this kind of game will accomplish far less then talking to people and punching them). yes I do run very four colour type games....

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I've been thinking about this idea a lot' date=' and it seems to me it would result in every attack having an advantage. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing it would make most villains less effective since they would require Hardened and other advantages on their defenses to make them able to survive more than a few segments. This would require me to build my villains to compensate for the special attacks, rather than to express the concept the villain is based on. The opposite case would happen if I adopted a similar rule for character defenses.[/quote']

 

Most special attacks increase DC's.

 

12 DC is 12d6 Normal Attack; 8d6 AP or Penetrating; 6d6 NND; about 4.5d6 AVLD.

 

Non-DC advantages include reduced END, personal immunity, maybe some Range advantages, but nothing that would alter the way the attack is defended against.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I've been thinking about this idea a lot' date=' and it seems to me it would result in every attack having an advantage. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing it would make most villains less effective since they would require Hardened and other advantages on their defenses to make them able to survive more than a few segments. This would require me to build my villains to compensate for the special attacks, rather than to express the concept the villain is based on. The opposite case would happen if I adopted a similar rule for character defenses.[/quote']

 

Hyper-Man's comment about the most common Advantage being Reduced END is correct, for the campaign I ran with this model.

 

As Hugh points out - Advantages that related directly to Damage are part of the Damage Class Cap; I did not have to alter how I built anything within the Campaign. (For the record, in the one campaign I ran this way, short as it was, I did not Classify Autofire as a Damage Class Advantage, and I didn't see it as much as I expected.)

 

The second most common Advantage was No Range Modifier.

 

On the whole, between either Reduced END or No Range Modifier the Heroes could last longer or hit more accurately at range and in general tended to feel more Heroic. I consider that a win.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

Hmmm, I am still worried about the freedom a rule like this would give a few players to really "munchkin out". Is there any way to prevent this, or at least curtail it?

[Alibear]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

Mk 1 human eyeball is the only sure method of catching munchkins.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

Mk 1 human eyeball is the only sure method of catching munchkins.

 

 

Most special attacks increase DC's.

 

After looking at the rules on DC's I see you are right.:thumbup:

 

However, to some of the players in my upcoming game the "heavy math" (their quote not mine) of the Hero System is a drawback. While they won't have to worry about it during character generation (due to the fact I will be writing up the character as they tell me what they want to be able to do) once they start to get XP they will need to figure it out somewhat on their own. So, this method may not work for my game, though I really like the idea.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

I recommend that you don't use hard caps for standard supers.

 

Use the recommended ranges for supers as guidelines, and adjudicate any abilities that exceed them on a case by case basis looking at the given character as a whole.

 

Caps end up becoming defacto minimums and are artificially limiting.

[The Dude]

Re: Campaign Limits

 

Caps end up becoming defacto minimums and are artificially limiting.

 

I currently play in a fantasy game where this is the case.

 

No archetype is duplicated among the PC's but all have virtually identical combat stats due to to artifically enforced hard caps.

 

The GM states that this makes designing the opposition easier. I understand this to a certain extent. However our characters feel more constrained than 1st Level characters from the game which shall not be named and that just feels weird.

 

But I abide.