sticky electric bolt

[Crypt]

the character has an electrical bolt (purely Instant, there's no continuous damage) which is supposed to affect characters who are touching the target. The (small) problem is that it's supposed to affect them like in a chain. Someone touching someone affected is affected too, even if this is not the main target. In the sticky description the sticky advantage doesnt spread from character to character.

 

So i wonder: would you for instance increase the sticky advantage to 3/4 (chain) instead of 1/2 or use a limited version of an Area of Effect ?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

I'd go with a Limited AOE (best built as a Naked Advantage with its own Limitation) based on your description of sfx and the description of the Sticky Advantage from 5er page 268:

 

Characters can only buy this Advantage for powers that require no conscious control from the character after the initial attack, such as Entangles and attacks bought with the Advantage Uncontrolled. The power must also have a physical effect; Mental Powers may not be bought with this Advantage unless they also have the Limitation Based On CON.

[Sean Waters]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

the character has an electrical bolt (purely Instant, there's no continuous damage) which is supposed to affect characters who are touching the target. The (small) problem is that it's supposed to affect them like in a chain. Someone touching someone affected is affected too, even if this is not the main target. In the sticky description the sticky advantage doesnt spread from character to character.

 

So i wonder: would you for instance increase the sticky advantage to 3/4 (chain) instead of 1/2 or use a limited version of an Area of Effect ?

 

 

PLAYER ARGUMENT:

 

I think the 'sticky' advantage works as is: the attack affects people that are touching the target, it is instant, so it only works if they are touching the target when the target is attacked: it is better than a limited version of AoE because there is no theoretical limit to the chain length. OK, the description says it only applies to attacks that require no conscious control after the attack but that assumes contact AFTER the attack - if anything this is a MORE limited version.

 

GM ARGUMENT:

 

I think we'll go with the limtied AoE because otherwise you could attack a crowd and hit them all no matter how big the crowd is. At least with a limited AoE we know what the limit is to start with. Anyway, technicallyyou can't use 'sticky' with an instant attack.

[SteveZilla]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

IIRC, Sticky only spreads to the second "generation". I.e., it affects the target (1st Generation), and those who touch the target (2nd Generation), but nothing past that. It doesn't affect those touching those who are touching the target.

[Crypt]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

I think we'll go with the limtied AoE because otherwise you could attack a crowd and hit them all no matter how big the crowd is

 

yes but all the victims would have to touch each other, which is rare, imo.

 

 

Anyway, technically you can't use 'sticky' with an instant attack.

 

i don't see why

 

 

IIRC, Sticky only spreads to the second "generation". I.e., it affects the target (1st Generation), and those who touch the target (2nd Generation), but nothing past that. It doesn't affect those touching those who are touching the target.

 

that's why i've spoken about a 'chain' modifier (+1/4 to the sticky cost)

 

 

But, anyway i'm seriously considering the limited AoF version.

How would you build it ?

[SteveZilla]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Questions:

 

What keeps this power from being used on what everybody is standing/sitting on, since they are all touching that?

 

Does each recipient need to be considered somewhat conductive for the power to continue the chain to the next recipient?

[Sean Waters]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

yes but all the victims would have to touch each other' date=' which is rare, imo.[/quote']

 

Well, as rare as the GM allows. I can also see some wrangling along the lines of 'well if can pass through a body, why not through another conductor, like a puddle of water. Sticky definitely can not do that.

 

 

 

 

i don't see why

 

Fair enough, but I did not write the rules, which state, as HyperMan noted, that sticky only applies to attacks that are uncontrolled after the initial hit.

 

 

 

 

that's why i've spoken about a 'chain' modifier (+1/4 to the sticky cost)

 

For a sticky attack to pass on an attack that was in itself sticky would arguably need multiple iterations of stickiness. I only have 5th with me at the moment and I think there is more detail in 5ER. I'll have a look later.

 

 

 

How would you build the AoF limited version ?

 

Either:

 

8d6 EB (electrical) 40 points

AoE radius (+40 points)

CUSTOM LIM: Requires a normal DCV hit on target -1/2

CUSTOM LIM: Only affects anyone in the radius touching the target directly or through one or more others -1

40 + 18 points = 58

 

Or

8d6 EB 40 points

Custom AoE: works as a radius but requires normal hit roll on target and only affects others in the area if they are in contact with target dircetly or through one or more others: +1/2

60 points

 

or

8d6 EB 40 points

Custom AoE: works as a radius but requires normal hit roll on target and only affects others in the area if they are in contact with target directly or through one or more others or through another conductor like water or wire: +3/4

70 points

 

The last one makes most sense to me, personally, in a comic book sort of way.

[Crypt]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Does each recipient need to be considered somewhat conductive for the power to continue the chain to the next recipient?

 

yes

 

 

Questions:

 

What keeps this power from being used on what everybody is standing/sitting on, since they are all touching that?

 

hmmm, 1 point for you. This may actually lead to some problems with malicious players.

Earth would not be conductive but, for, instance, rain (a common occurence in my campaign) would be.

 

I will use the AoF version.

[SteveZilla]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

yes

 

 

 

 

hmmm, 1 point for you. This may actually lead to some problems with malicious players.

Earth would not be conductive but, for, instance, rain (a common occurence in my campaign) would be.

 

I will use the AoF version.

 

AoF?

 

You might want to look at using Area of Effect: Radius, Non-Selective, and then limit it so that it only affects "secondary" targets if they are touching the primary target or both are touching something conductive.

[Crypt]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

AoF?

 

 

sorry, typo => AoE

[fbdaury]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Well, just to be different, how about this:

Chain Spark Discharge-

8d6 Energy Blast Explosion (+1/2), loses -1 DC per target after center of explosion (-1/4), range based on str (-1/4), all targets must be physically in contact with one another (-1/4), (60 Active Points, 34 Real Points)

 

Does this work better?

[Crypt]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Well, just to be different, how about this:

Chain Spark Discharge-

8d6 Energy Blast Explosion

(+1/2), loses -1 DC per target after center of explosion (-1/4), range based on str (-1/4) (60 Active Points, 40 Real Points)

 

 

yes but it lacks the important flavour limitation (as far as i am concerned here) where the effect only spreads to touching targets.

 

your version looks more like the classic D&D chain lightning spell.

[fbdaury]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

yes but it lacks the important flavour limitation (as far as i am concerned here) where the effect only spreads to touching targets.

 

your version looks more like the classic D&D chain lightning spell.

 

Corrected.

[Crypt]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Well, just to be different, how about this:

Chain Spark Discharge-

8d6 Energy Blast Explosion (+1/2), loses -1 DC per target after center of explosion (-1/4), range based on str (-1/4), all targets must be physically in contact with one another (-1/4), (60 Active Points, 34 Real Points)

 

Does this work better?

 

yes

 

The Explosion is a nice way to "limit" its effectiveness (compared to the chained sticky)

I think i would raise all targets must be physically in contact with one another to -1/2.

[Kenn]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Might want add "Initial Target must be targeted normally(-1/4)". From the description, the usual AoE/Explosion targeting the hex shouldn't apply.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Might want add "Initial Target must be targeted normally(-1/4)". From the description' date=' the usual AoE/Explosion targeting the hex shouldn't apply.[/quote']

 

Given 1 hex AoE accurate costs +1/2 to change from target DCV to DCV 3, it seems reasonable that losing the ability to target a hex is a -1/2 limitation.

 

Begs the question whether Explosion is priced appropriately, though I suppose there are enough times you don't want to catch others in the explosion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Explosion is +1/2

 

An explosion that has to hit the 'first' target normally and only 'transmits' to others touching that target is still worth more than +0 but less than +1/2.

 

I'd be inclined to give it a custom AoE at +1/4, which looks neater and is easier to understand than applying Explosion and then appying limitations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Explosion is +1/2

 

An explosion that has to hit the 'first' target normally and only 'transmits' to others touching that target is still worth more than +0 but less than +1/2.

 

I'd be inclined to give it a custom AoE at +1/4, which looks neater and is easier to understand than applying Explosion and then applying limitations.

 

Why must it be worth more than +0? An AoE Accurate converts a single target attack to targetting DCV 3 instead of the target's DCV and costs +1/2. The Explosion also costs +1/2. This seems to indicate that the drawbacks and benefits of Explosiveness, other than targeting a hex, balance out.

 

Sure, it's nice to hit all those enemies holding hands in a chain. Do you want to use the same attack on the Bad Guy holding the hostage baby? Some advantages, some drawbacks. Maybe it should net to zero.

[fbdaury]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Ok, lets try version 2.0:

Chain Static Discharge

(34) 8d6 Energy Blast Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Conditional Explosion: Center of target must be hit as normal attack, all targets of explosion must be in contact, and -1 DC for each target after the first (-1/2), range based on strength (-1/4)-- Still costs 6 End per shot and is 60 Active points from MP reserve

[Sean Waters]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Why must it be worth more than +0? An AoE Accurate converts a single target attack to targetting DCV 3 instead of the target's DCV and costs +1/2. The Explosion also costs +1/2. This seems to indicate that the drawbacks and benefits of Explosiveness, other than targeting a hex, balance out.

 

Sure, it's nice to hit all those enemies holding hands in a chain. Do you want to use the same attack on the Bad Guy holding the hostage baby? Some advantages, some drawbacks. Maybe it should net to zero.

 

I'd say not: you can still hit the original target for just as much damage and have a chance of doing damage to several other targets.

 

You don't just start at +1/2 and work down - you also have to start at +0 and work up: Have to hit DCV - same - can damage more than one target - improvement.

 

The only compromise value is +1/4.

 

As for the bad guy holding a baby, the same argument applies to most AoE and they are worth extra points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Ok, lets try version 2.0:

Chain Static Discharge

(34) 8d6 Energy Blast Explosion (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Conditional Explosion: Center of target must be hit as normal attack, all targets of explosion must be in contact, and -1 DC for each target after the first (-1/2), range based on strength (-1/4)-- Still costs 6 End per shot and is 60 Active points from MP reserve

 

 

The problem there is that you are adding in a limitation that only applies to the AoE advantage to the base power too, which gives a real cost equal to the base 8d6 EB even if the active cost is greater. The base 8d6 attack is still more effective so the cost should be higher. Of course you may agree with Hugh and think it is a +0 advantage overall...

 

You either need a partially limited power or a custom power modifier, at least for a general solution.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

I'd say not: you can still hit the original target for just as much damage and have a chance of doing damage to several other targets.

 

You don't just start at +1/2 and work down - you also have to start at +0 and work up: Have to hit DCV - same - can damage more than one target - improvement.

 

The only compromise value is +1/4.

 

As for the bad guy holding a baby, the same argument applies to most AoE and they are worth extra points.

 

Both analyses hold some weight. Working from the AoE model, an AoE 1 hex Accurate Nonselective attack is a +1/4 advantage.

 

But nonselective makes me roll to hit every target. This approach means I only roll to hit one target, so it's less limiting than Nonselective. Should it still reduce the advantage by the same amount, or is it "less than 1/4"? Keep in mind that I will always aim for the one target in the chain that has the lowest DCV.

 

The problem, as you note, is that we don't have the ability to assess any of these modifications at less than a 1/4 change. My gut feel says drop the Explosion advantage to +1/4 and it will be close enough. However, comparing the alternatives seems to indicate a number of different interpretations which could be made.

 

In some ways, this is better than an explosion - I can see who's in physical contact and know that anyone who isn't won't get hurt. Should that carry an advantage? It has an element of Selective, though with very limited control.

 

In large part, this makes my answer to the costing question "What will you, the GM, make it worth in your game?" Will you provide the character a lot of opportunities to benefit from hitting two people in close contact? Then it's worth more than a standard EB. Will most such opportunities involve an ally Grabbing an enemy or vice versa, so you don't want to hit both targets? Then it's worth less than the EB, which could select its targets. Given the nature of the power, and assuming it will not often be useful, I could see making this an Adder, rather than an Advantage, or simply letting the character pull the trick off with a Power Skill roll. Or, I could see calling this part of the power's SFX. Sometimes it's good - you can hit two enemies at once. Sometimes it's not so good - you can't hit the enemy without hurting your ally.

 

To me, the GM's job goes beyond setting the cost to encompass making the ability worth the cost at which you set it - that is, ensuring the player gets value for points spent.

 

Moving to the theoretical, we try to use the points to achieve balance but, in some cases (many cases?), the points themselves aren't really balanced. To some extent, the search for granularity has lead to some strange results. I can buy Armor that Costs END for the same price as a Force Field. Or I can make my Armor Visible and Nonpersistent for the same price as a Force Field and still pay 0 END. Making my Force Field equate to Armor requires a +2 advantage - 0 END, Persistent, IPE. "Same effects for very different costs" is not, in my view, a desirable result.

 

Given the credence some pay to "You must buy everything in the most expensive manner possible", should I be required to buy my 12d6 Energy Blast as 12d6 AoE Accurate (+1/2), Nonselective (reduce +1/2 to +1/4) and pay 75 points?

[Sean Waters]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Both analyses hold some weight. Working from the AoE model, an AoE 1 hex Accurate Nonselective attack is a +1/4 advantage.

 

But nonselective makes me roll to hit every target. This approach means I only roll to hit one target, so it's less limiting than Nonselective. Should it still reduce the advantage by the same amount, or is it "less than 1/4"? Keep in mind that I will always aim for the one target in the chain that has the lowest DCV.

 

The problem, as you note, is that we don't have the ability to assess any of these modifications at less than a 1/4 change. My gut feel says drop the Explosion advantage to +1/4 and it will be close enough. However, comparing the alternatives seems to indicate a number of different interpretations which could be made.

 

In some ways, this is better than an explosion - I can see who's in physical contact and know that anyone who isn't won't get hurt. Should that carry an advantage? It has an element of Selective, though with very limited control.

 

In large part, this makes my answer to the costing question "What will you, the GM, make it worth in your game?" Will you provide the character a lot of opportunities to benefit from hitting two people in close contact? Then it's worth more than a standard EB. Will most such opportunities involve an ally Grabbing an enemy or vice versa, so you don't want to hit both targets? Then it's worth less than the EB, which could select its targets. Given the nature of the power, and assuming it will not often be useful, I could see making this an Adder, rather than an Advantage, or simply letting the character pull the trick off with a Power Skill roll. Or, I could see calling this part of the power's SFX. Sometimes it's good - you can hit two enemies at once. Sometimes it's not so good - you can't hit the enemy without hurting your ally.

 

To me, the GM's job goes beyond setting the cost to encompass making the ability worth the cost at which you set it - that is, ensuring the player gets value for points spent.

 

Moving to the theoretical, we try to use the points to achieve balance but, in some cases (many cases?), the points themselves aren't really balanced. To some extent, the search for granularity has lead to some strange results. I can buy Armor that Costs END for the same price as a Force Field. Or I can make my Armor Visible and Nonpersistent for the same price as a Force Field and still pay 0 END. Making my Force Field equate to Armor requires a +2 advantage - 0 END, Persistent, IPE. "Same effects for very different costs" is not, in my view, a desirable result.

 

Given the credence some pay to "You must buy everything in the most expensive manner possible", should I be required to buy my 12d6 Energy Blast as 12d6 AoE Accurate (+1/2), Nonselective (reduce +1/2 to +1/4) and pay 75 points?

 

I think there might be an exception for standard powers

 

The difficulty here is that it will depend on how much the GM is willing to have people standing in pools of salty water or holding hands.

 

If you take a +1/4 advantage I'd suggest you should probably hit an extra target a few times a session. If you take +0 then it should probably be a pretty rare event.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

I think we'll go with the limtied AoE because otherwise you could attack a crowd and hit them all no matter how big the crowd is.

Dude, what kind of crowds have you been getting stuck in? Maybe if we're talking about a power that can only be used at Who concerts...

[SteveZilla]

Re: sticky electric bolt

 

Dude' date=' what kind of crowds have you been getting stuck in? Maybe if we're talking about a power that can only be used at Who concerts...[/quote']

 

Who?