STR Adding to HKA's

[rjcurrie]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

I hate to break it to you' date=' but if a martial artist's DCV doesn't [i']exceed[/i] the equivalent level brick's OCV, then the martial artist is paste on phase 12.

 

No, the martial artist is likely paste on phase 12. The brick might fail the attack roll.

[Vulcan]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

No' date=' the martial artist is [b']likely [/b]paste on phase 12. The brick might fail the attack roll.

 

Okay, likely to paste him. I note you're not correcting me on the end result of the situation...

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

If you want to build a killing attack that is both capable of being used in HTH & Ranged combat then you must start with HKA and add the Ranged Advantage (per current RAW).

 

example assuming a STR 20 character:

 

18 Basic Sword - Supers: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (3d6+1 w/STR) (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); OAF (Sword; -1), Restrainable (-1/2) - END=0

 

18 Throwable Sword (like a Katana)- Supers: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (2 1/2d6 w/STR) (vs. PD), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (44 Active Points); OAF (Sword; -1), Restrainable (-1/2) - END=0

 

Ok, this is completely off topic to the thread, and I apologize. But I have to ask, why would you allow Restrainable on an OAF?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Ok' date=' this is completely off topic to the thread, and I apologize. But I have to ask, why would you allow Restrainable on an OAF?[/quote']

 

 

Good catch.

I don't know. I was probably thinking of the OIF & Restrainable combo I've used for things like Captain America's shield. I know I started to add 'Real Weapon' and didn't because I wanted the builds to be appropriate for supers as well as heroic.

[Alibear]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

I played a brick for a while and would often pin tricksy martial artists under a truck and let them try work a way to get out while I dealt with their mates.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Good catch.

I don't know. I was probably thinking of the OIF & Restrainable combo I've used for things like Captain America's shield. I know I started to add 'Real Weapon' and didn't because I wanted the builds to be appropriate for supers as well as heroic.

 

Ah, OK. I was just wondering if there was something I was missing from 5ER, since I only have 5th.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Char has 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA. He can do 4d6 HKA.

 

Drain 15 points off of STR, he can do 3d6 HKA.

 

Drain 15 points off of HKA, he can do 2d6 HKA.

 

That's true - I had not factored in capping (mainly as I was looking at a 4d6 HKA and 15 STR, which I've already noted is not an efficient build). At the same time, an STR drain is a lot more common than an HKA drain in my experience.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

I hate to break it to you' date=' but if a martial artist's DCV doesn't [i']exceed[/i] the equivalent level brick's OCV, then the martial artist is paste on phase 12.

 

But I just explained that bricks almost always end up with the lowest CV's in my campaigns, due to limits on how many SL's can be added to a single attack...

 

Best Case scenario for a Brick in my campaigns, he'll have 3 to 5 less CV than a Martial Artist or Blaster. Usually, the Martial Artists get pasted when they decide to go full OCV and add some DC's then roll a 17, leaving their DCV well within reach of the Brick (or, more commonly, end up being forced to abort and block since their DCV is still nerfed from whatever manuever they pulled.)

[lemming]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

That's true - I had not factored in capping (mainly as I was looking at a 4d6 HKA and 15 STR' date=' which I've already noted is not an efficient build). At the same time, an STR drain is a lot more common than an HKA drain in my experience.[/quote']

 

A STR drain certainly is more likely to have a target.

[torchwolf]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Still, adding damage is not necessarily restricted to STR.

If you put a Mental Entangle (BOECV, Works vs EGO instead of BODY, Cannot Form Barriers) on someone, you use EGO to break out instead of STR. This costs END, and EGO can even be Pushed for this purpose. Using the same line of reasoning, you could build an EGO Attack (EGO Adds To Damage).

 

In the HERO system STR adds to HA and HKA. However, many other game systems separate the two and just establish a STR (and/or DEX) minimum to do "basic weapon damage", or just establish a "damage bonus" or whatnot to represent the addition of force from STR.

 

STR does not necessarily add to HA or HKA, but is a fathomable and less abstract representation of reality when it comes to the effects of how force is applied to tools which are applied to affect the environment.

 

Not that that solves anything ruleswise.

[Vulcan]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

(cough cough *Dive for cover* cough)

[Vulcan]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

But I just explained that bricks almost always end up with the lowest CV's in my campaigns, due to limits on how many SL's can be added to a single attack...

 

Best Case scenario for a Brick in my campaigns, he'll have 3 to 5 less CV than a Martial Artist or Blaster. Usually, the Martial Artists get pasted when they decide to go full OCV and add some DC's then roll a 17, leaving their DCV well within reach of the Brick (or, more commonly, end up being forced to abort and block since their DCV is still nerfed from whatever manuever they pulled.)

 

What limits on SL's that can be added to a single attack?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

What limits on SL's that can be added to a single attack?

 

The ones I said I used in my campaigns: +5 CV max from any single category (Skill Level, Circumstance, Manuever, etc.)

[Vulcan]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

The ones I said I used in my campaigns: +5 CV max from any single category (Skill Level' date=' Circumstance, Manuever, etc.)[/quote']

 

Well there you go and there you are. That's not a system problem, that's a house rule problem - assuming one thinks it's a problem.

[Alibear]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Indeed, most characters in my campaign have similar levels of damage. They just get it different ways. My MA i played since the 80's has a 17d6 attack.

 

He doesn't have much PD and no resistant so he dodges alot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Indeed, most characters in my campaign have similar levels of damage. They just get it different ways. My MA i played since the 80's has a 17d6 attack.

 

He doesn't have much PD and no resistant so he dodges a lot.

 

I think that's fairly common. A difference of 3d6 against the same defenses is an average of 10.5 extra STUN per hit, which makes a lot of difference in most games. I have seen games where the Brick and the MA do similar damage and the EP's do a bit less, and it tends to result in PD generally being a bit higher than ED on most characters to compensate. OCV's also tend to be pretty similar.

 

A wider variance on defenses (and STUN) coupled with a wider variance on DCV's tends to be a lot more common, at least in my experience.

[Vondy]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Here's the real problem:

 

In a Suerpheroic Game you pay for everything. All your Attacks must be accounted for in points.

 

In a Heroic Game you pay for almost nothing. All your Attacks are purchased with money or acquired in game somehow. There's no Point Investment.

 

when Heroic Bob picks up a knife and is stronger than Heroic Greg, he is assumed to be able to do more damage. Heroic Bob can also throw the knife further, again because he is stronger. Instead of going for distance Heroic Bob can attempt to go for force, reducing Throwing Distance for Throwing Damage. He needs only to know the weight of the knife.

 

Effectively allowing Strength to add to both HKA and RKA in a Heroic Game.

Which you cannot do in a Superheroic Game. Or - with non-thrown Ranged Killing Attacks (like guns).

 

 

the problem highlights itself when we start inspecting SFX and SFX Interactions.

 

I know that hero was originally designed for supers, but most of the balance problems people have also occur in those genres. It works great for heroic level games (granularity issues aside). I think when people want to "fix" these things they forget other genres are out there - and that fixing it for one genre sometimes totally screws it up for another.