STR Adding to HKA's

[Hugh Neilson]

This comes from the Company Question thread "For Those Keeping Score at Home"

 

There is a bit of a difference, though.

 

Two 10 STR characters, one with 60 points of HKA, one with 60 points of RKA. HKA guy does 4.5d6 KA. RKA guy does 4d6 KA at range, which can be spread and bounced.

 

Two 60 STR characters, one with 60 points of HKA, one with 60 points of RKA. HKA guy does 8d6 KA. RKA guy... still does 4d6 KA at range, which can be spread and bounced.

 

And these two results are equivalent how?

 

RKA guy has a 60 Active Point attack. HKA guy has a 120 Active Point attack. HKA guy spent 50 more points on STR to get the full benefit of that HKA; so it certainly should be more powerful. If RKA guy had paid 60 more points into his RKA instead of buying up his STR he'd also have gotten 8d6 damage' date=' Ranged, which can also be spread and bounced.[/quote']

 

Yup' date=' is it really any different than a character who bought 60 STR and a 6d6 Entangle? He can't use his STR to make the Entangle better -- do you think that is unfair too?[/quote']

 

Yes, rjcurrie, I think that is equally unfair. Why should it be possible to enhance HKA, but no other power, with STR? What makes "can be enhanced by STR" appropriately a +1/2 advantage when every other addition to damage is undertaken by purchasing the extra damage, at the usual cost?

 

Let's look at a different comparison, LL. Both characters have a 15 STR. Equal points spent. Character 1 purchases a 4d6 HKA and now does 5d6 with his STR. He spends another 60 points. Character 2 purchases a 5d6 HKA, STR does not add (-1/2) for 50 points. He also does a 5d6 HKA, but he paid 10 points less. Fair?

 

Character 3 purchases a 5d6 RKA, no Range. He spends 50 points. His 5d6 KA can be spread to enhance OCV (and theoretically to fill hexes), so he gets even more functionality at less cost than Character 1.

 

And let's add Character 4, who spends an extra 5 points on STR, to get a 20, then buys a 5d6 HKA, STR Min 20 (-1) for 37 points - saved another 8 points and gets 5 more STR to boot. He can spend a couple of those points making his first 20 AP of HKA 0 END, which will offset the END he must pay on his STR.

 

Why should these four characters all end up with the same mechanical result (a 5d6 killing attack with no range), but have point costs ranging from 42 to 60, with some of the lower costs getting added benefits?

 

Why should STR be the only characteristic that can add damage classes? Why can't our local Wizard buy a 2d6 KA enhanced by INT instead? "Because it makes logical sense that STR enhances damage?" The answer to every other "it makes logical sense" question is "pay the points to buy the abilities that make logical sense for your character". Why is STR enhancing HKA's the sole exception to this overall rule?

[Alibear]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Food for thought ... food for thought.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Going that route - Strength should add to neither Hand Killing Attack or Hand Attack.

 

 

I don't really have any mechanical issues either way. Just don't care enough.

 

But if a Knife is built with HKA - a certain point of logic tells us Strongman is going to be able to generate more force (and thus generate more damage) than Weaklad.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Going that route - Strength should add to neither Hand Killing Attack or Hand Attack.

 

I would rather see HA redefined as "STR, only adds to damage". We already have a variant "STR - only enhances Martial Arts Maneuver Effects" for -1/4 in the form of Martial Arts DC's.

 

This would also mean that, if you want your STR to add AP dice to an AP Hand Attack, you need to pay for your STR to be AP when used with the Hand Attack.

 

But if a Knife is built with HKA - a certain point of logic tells us Strongman is going to be able to generate more force (and thus generate more damage) than Weaklad.

 

That same logic tells me that FlameBurst, who can ignite his body into a flaming aura that hurts anyone who touches it, should have some defenses against fire attacks, and possibly some life support against extreme heat. I then apply my logic by purchasing some life support and defenses for FlameBurst.

 

StrongMan can buy more HKA with his knife, perhaps applying Lockout to his STR to simulate the damage being enhanced with his STR. That extra damage might also take the "drained by attacks that drain STR" limitation.

 

But Weaklad may be an extremely skilled knifefighter able to inflict the same, or even more, damage through judicious use of his weapon. And Strongman may not be able to apply his full STR to enhance the damage of his knife - Grond doesn't likely do a lot more damage by throwing a baseball at his target, although a major league pitcher probably does.

[Alibear]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Indeed a ball can only impart so much energy.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

You can change in Throwing Distance for Throwing Damage. . . .

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Here's the real problem:

 

In a Suerpheroic Game you pay for everything. All your Attacks must be accounted for in points.

 

In a Heroic Game you pay for almost nothing. All your Attacks are purchased with money or acquired in game somehow. There's no Point Investment.

 

when Heroic Bob picks up a knife and is stronger than Heroic Greg, he is assumed to be able to do more damage. Heroic Bob can also throw the knife further, again because he is stronger. Instead of going for distance Heroic Bob can attempt to go for force, reducing Throwing Distance for Throwing Damage. He needs only to know the weight of the knife.

 

Effectively allowing Strength to add to both HKA and RKA in a Heroic Game.

Which you cannot do in a Superheroic Game. Or - with non-thrown Ranged Killing Attacks (like guns).

 

 

the problem highlights itself when we start inspecting SFX and SFX Interactions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

STR adds to HKA (and HtH Attack) is real-world logical - swing the sword harder, it hurts more. Adding to Entangle is (generally) not so logical.

 

However, from a game balance POV it can cause problems, especially as STR is (currently) 'free' due to the other advantages it brings.

 

Removing figured characteristics will go a long way to balancing this problem as does remembering that you add the costs together to get an active point total, or look at the total DC of the attack for in-game balance.

 

There have to be damage adding rule, IMO - it would get too messy otherwise.

[rjcurrie]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

With different combinations of STR and HKA, that 5d6 KA is affected differently by different adjustment powers -- so they're not quite identical. No idea if that balances out the costs at all -- but frankly I'm not that worried about the differences in cost. Hero is only loosely balanced anyway.

 

And basically, the HKA+STR works well enough for me -- but some other alternatives may work for me too. It just never really seemed that big of deal.

 

Steve looked at it and decided not to change it. As far as I'm concerned the case is closed until 7th edition. But if you don't like it, use a house rule.

 

But my point with the STR and Entangle example, was that the player with the STR and HKA bought two Powers that can be used together, the player with the STR and the Entangle didn't.

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

But my point with the STR and Entangle example' date=' was that the player with the STR and HKA bought two Powers that can be used together, the player with the STR and the Entangle didn't.[/quote']

 

Expanding on this:

 

Strength Damage and HKA do the same thing: Damage

Entangles do not do Damage.

 

 

It seems natural that you can add various Methods Of Damage together.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

If the RKA is a thrown weapon (or like a Compound bow), I do let STR add to the damage.

 

I see it like this:

 

Hand to Hand, you can add to your damage by: Using a Weapon, Extra Strength, Combat Skill Levels, Martial Manuevers, Haymaker...

 

Ranged, you can add to your damage by: Set & Brace to free up CSL's for DC's, and the above methods.

 

 

Range has the added benefit of being able to really use cover, or hit and fade tactics, etc. In hand to hand your options are a lot more limited, and you are much more in harm's way.

 

I think it is a fair trade off, and again - HERO is about realism to an extent, be it dramatic reality or real reality... either way what makes sense often trumps what might seem balanced for a game system.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

If you want to build a killing attack that is both capable of being used in HTH & Ranged combat then you must start with HKA and add the Ranged Advantage (per current RAW).

 

example assuming a STR 20 character:

 

18 Basic Sword - Supers: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (3d6+1 w/STR) (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); OAF (Sword; -1), Restrainable (-1/2) - END=0

 

18 Throwable Sword (like a Katana)- Supers: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (2 1/2d6 w/STR) (vs. PD), Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (44 Active Points); OAF (Sword; -1), Restrainable (-1/2) - END=0

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

No - if you want a Killing Attack that can be used HtH and Ranged where STR adds to the HtH you build it as an HKA with Ranged.

 

There is nothing in the Rules that says you can't use an RKA in HtH Range. You just don't get to add STR to it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

No - if you want a Killing Attack that can be used HtH and Ranged where STR adds to the HtH you build it as an HKA with Ranged.

 

There is nothing in the Rules that says you can't use an RKA in HtH Range. You just don't get to add STR to it.

 

Sorry, I meant to include the adding STR part (I often post incomplete thoughts and edit a minute or two afterwards).

[ghost-angel]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

s'alright mate. Just makin' sure we're all straight on the RAW lodown.

[secretID]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

What makes "can be enhanced by STR" appropriately a +1/2 advantage when every other addition to damage is undertaken by purchasing the extra damage' date=' at the usual cost?[/quote']

I appreciate your points (a lot), but when the question is asked the other way, it makes more sense: "Since there's a VERY common sfx to be modeled, why can't we have a mechanic/power/characteristic that adds only to certain types of attacks, namely HA and HKA?" That is, the question isn't what's special about HA and HKA, but what's special about STR, and the answer is that that is the purpose of the STR mechanic: to add to the effect of certain attacks. That's not unique - MAs and Combat Skills do that even more specifically, if you want.

 

One reason why you may be thinking of it the other way - that some attacks unfairly get a bonus from STR - is that we tend to thing of some STR as a given...since it is. If instead one assumes a default of zero added points from STR, then the player is just buying a way to improve the effectiveness of a class of attacks, just like Combat Skills.

 

The next question is what STR should cost to balance with other things. That's a huge headache.

 

Why should STR be the only characteristic that can add damage classes? Why can't our local Wizard buy a 2d6 KA enhanced by INT instead?

I think the question is: Why are characteristics put into one category, when each has a very different game effect? There's a mechanic that gives a bonus to all HA, HKA, etc.; it happens to be called STR. There's another mechanic that gives a bonus to PER and to a certain class of skills. They're not really related in any way, so there's no real reason to ask why one can add damage and the other can't - one is designed to do that, and one isn't. We don't ask why there's no MA that allows that makes powers cost less END - that's just not what MAs are for.

 

I see Skills, Powers, Characteristics, and MAs as mechanics that are related in different ways and to different degrees. They are organized in a way that someone found intuitively appealing, but there's no real reason to compare within those classifications any more than we would compare across those classifications. (Maybe MAs are an exception...)

 

The two questions to me are:

1) Do we want a mechanic that does X (adds to all melee attacks, adds to all "mental" skills, works like a multipower)? That really amounts to a question of whether we want a discount for improving the value of "related" abilities.

2) What should that mechanic cost? And there's no way that the pricing is going to make sense in every application - sometimes a MP is better than an EC is better than MAs.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with doing away with all primary characteristics, frameworks, and MAs - each of them is to some degree contrary to reasoning from effect. If a player wants to make Crazy Hodge-Podge Boy, and the GM approves of it, why should it cost more than Tight Theme Guy? A character is good or it isn't.

[prestidigitator]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

I've thought for a while that a useful solution would be to not only eliminate figured characteristics, but to separate out some of the things that are not characteristics at all currently, but are calculated from them; Perception, OCV, DCV, OECV, DECV, and HTH damage for example.

 

Why not turn that basic HTH damage that comes from Str into a pure characteristic called Hand Attack (no coincidence that it is named the same as the Power, BTW--merge the two)? Even give it a NCM for heroic games. Have it add to everything you can currently add Str HTH damage to, instead of requiring it to be used on its own, separate from other powers or in an MPA. Strong men that deliver a mean punch could still buy both Str and HA up to match the concept. Martial artists or slow brutes could buy them up independently. Bonuses to HA for specific activities could still be bought with Limitations (such as a death grip Grab on a slow character who can't deliver a fast, hard punch).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

This may sound heretical, but I personally have no problem if two different constructs which are otherwise comparable in capability are off a few points from each other in cost. I don't ask for or expect perfect balance, as long as everything that should be in the same ballpark, is.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

And, again, RKA w/ "Extra Damage from STR" is at a +1/2 advantage.

 

HKA "Usable at Range" is a +1/2 advantage.

 

I think it works out just fine.

 

My only complaint over STR is the 1/1 cost with it affecting so many figured characteristics. But at the same time, bricks are the easiest characters to avoid damage from, so I again think (in my experience) that it all works out.

 

You have to sometimes look past the point totals and wargame a build in your head, or on paper, or with a friend, to find out if it balances against everything else. In my experience, high STR characters are the least problematic build out there.

[Alibear]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

My only complaint over STR is the 1/1 cost with it affecting so many figured characteristics. But at the same time, bricks are the easiest characters to avoid damage from, .

 

How's that? Most bricks I've encountered have skill levels out the wazoo to compensate for a low cv. Sure a low speed allows you to dodge but I think that evens itself out.

[Vulcan]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

I never had a problem handling bricks with my low DEF/high DCV martial artist. Block/Dodge a lot, hammer him on the extra phases, and hold to Dex.vs.Dex and martial throw when he attempts to punch all take threat out of a brick pretty quick.

 

Even if you can't actually get a signifigant amount of STUN through his defenses, you can tie him up and run him out of END... then clobber him when he's forced to take a recovery, or make him keep going and burn STUN instead.

 

Granted, if he gets lucky I'm out in one hit. But he's got to get pretty darn lucky for that!

[Kraven Kor]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

How's that? Most bricks I've encountered have skill levels out the wazoo to compensate for a low cv. Sure a low speed allows you to dodge but I think that evens itself out.

 

Well, the problem there is CSL's not STR adding to HA/HKA damage.

 

Pretty much ALL my characters end up with about the same amount of CSL's, and I have limits on that so that Martial Artists aren't often matching CV's against bricks and such. A base CV of 4 and then say +5 from CSL's and +1 from a Martial Manuever from the brick is going to be up against base CV of 7 and then +5 CSL's and a point or three from Martial Maneuvers, and then the Martial Artist also bought extra HTH DC's so he isn't that far behind on damage.

 

Campaign Rules and point limits and such can do wonders for making sure you get the level of realism and balance you want.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

With different combinations of STR and HKA' date=' that 5d6 KA is affected differently by different adjustment powers -- so they're not quite identical. No idea if that balances out the costs at all -- but frankly I'm not that worried about the differences in cost. Hero is only loosely balanced anyway. [/quote']

 

Draining 15 STR or 15 HKA both take 1d6 off the HKA last time I looked.

 

Expanding on this:

 

Strength Damage and HKA do the same thing: Damage

Entangles do not do Damage.

 

It seems natural that you can add various Methods Of Damage together.

 

But you can't. You can't add an EB and an RKA - two Methods of Damage at range - together. Your STR cannot increase your Bruising Punch PD Drain.

[lemming]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Draining 15 STR or 15 HKA both take 1d6 off the HKA last time I looked.

 

Char has 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA. He can do 4d6 HKA.

 

Drain 15 points off of STR, he can do 3d6 HKA.

 

Drain 15 points off of HKA, he can do 2d6 HKA.

[Vulcan]

Re: STR Adding to HKA's

 

Well, the problem there is CSL's not STR adding to HA/HKA damage.

 

Pretty much ALL my characters end up with about the same amount of CSL's, and I have limits on that so that Martial Artists aren't often matching CV's against bricks and such. A base CV of 4 and then say +5 from CSL's and +1 from a Martial Manuever from the brick is going to be up against base CV of 7 and then +5 CSL's and a point or three from Martial Maneuvers, and then the Martial Artist also bought extra HTH DC's so he isn't that far behind on damage.

 

Campaign Rules and point limits and such can do wonders for making sure you get the level of realism and balance you want.

 

I hate to break it to you, but if a martial artist's DCV doesn't exceed the equivalent level brick's OCV, then the martial artist is paste on phase 12.