Finding something Hero System can't model...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

'Does Not Change Speed. Adds A Phase'. Cost to taste.

Except that adding a Phase is the very definition of changing a character's Speed. It makes no more sense than adding the Ranged Advantage to a Hand To Hand Attack.

One word: 'Spear'.

 

All snarkiness aside, Narf, I think you know what Hyper-Man meant. You’re saying “it’s not Po-tey-to it’s Po-tah-to”, when the fact is it’s the same freaking root no matter how you say it. Adding a Phase is Changing Speed. Period. In fact, that is all that changing speed is. There is no other function to changing speed other than increasing or reducing the number of phases, and thus the number of actions, a character has. Pointing out that H-M used a poor example does not change the fact that you are incorrect.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

I have to correct myself and apologies to Hyper-Man, because his example was not faulty. A spear is a Killing Attack Hand-to-Hand (vs. a Killing Attack Ranged), which is not the same as a straight Hand-to-Hand attack (sometimes just called Hand Attack and abbreviated HA) which cannot in fact have the Ranged Advantage and are required to have the mandatory Hand-to-Hand Attack Limitation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

ha! I missed that too.

 

And I hate it. You should be able to make a perfectly throwable blunt object.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

First part I agree.

 

Second part - makes perfect sense. It's a great way to model throwing knives.

 

Anyways - I disagree completely with the premise that +1 Speed;Trigger;Only To Add A Phase will actually let you randomly add a Phase. +1 Speed is +1 Speed, that changes your Speed. I consider that both an inherently bad model, and beyond even my acknowledged disregard for the rules at times.

 

but - if your GM will let you do it, Rock On.

*Shrug* Given that it, at minimum, costs 17 AP, as compared to a 'normal' SPD increase of 10 AP, I'd allow it as considering the advantage paid for.

 

If you have it activate during the next round, then that rule is also taken care of.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

All snarkiness aside' date=' Narf, I think you know what Hyper-Man meant. You’re saying “it’s not Po-tey-to it’s Po-tah-to”, when the fact is it’s the same freaking root no matter how you say it. Adding a Phase is Changing Speed. Period. In fact, that is all that changing speed is. There is no other function to changing speed other than increasing or reducing the number of phases, and thus the number of actions, a character has. Pointing out that H-M used a poor example does not change the fact that you are incorrect.[/quote']

Sorry; bad logic hits my snark button. I am, in fact, aware of what he's pointing out.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

As I pointed out in my apology to H-M it wasn't bad logic...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

ha! I missed that too.

 

And I hate it. You should be able to make a perfectly throwable blunt object.

 

Internal consistency is hard to achieve, but hopefully 6e will alleviate that. The reason you can not add ranged to HA is the way it treats advantages and the fact that it would then almost certainly be cheaper to buy a ranged HA than an EB. At present blunt objects have to be built as multipowers if they are throwable, or straight EBs that you can use at zero range, purchasing enough to cover base damage + STR (which makes them more difficult to build a 'general' version of).

 

Hopefully with figured characteristics going, HA and its oddness can go too.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Sorry; bad logic hits my snark button. I am' date=' in fact, aware of what he's pointing out.[/quote']

 

Spears aren't Hand To Hand Attacks though.

 

+1d6 Hand Attack; Hand Attack Only (-1/2); Ranged (+1/2)

-Mutually Exclusive Modifiers.

 

+1 Speed; Does Not Increase Speed

-Mutually Exclusive Concepts.

 

It's actually closer to saying:

+1D6 Hand Killing Attack; Does Not Cause Damage.

 

So... what's it do then?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

I should note that I’m not trying to say Hero is perfect at modeling everything. A usable, cost effective, not overpowering “Time Stop” power can be hard. Stopping Time tends to be a better SFX than a power in and of itself. Likewise, most builds for possession require at least some hand-waving. Many people don’t like “The Speed Zone” though some have no problem with it. Absolutes are hard to do, but that is an intentional part of the system. You can do absolutes, but how you do them will very from campaign to campaign and depend greatly on campaign limits, GM’s preferences, et cetera.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

:nonp:This kind of question is really just asking for an argument. Inevitably someone will suggest something they can’t think of how to build. Someone else will respond with a clever build that may be very simple or ridiculously complicated. Either way someone will claim that the build is not “realistic” and thus Hero system doesn’t model it well. People will argue about what qualifies as “realistic” and whether we should try to simulate realism at all. Thread deteriorates.

 

Just warning you man. Hopefully that doesn’t happen this time.

 

 

I'm not going to offer builds etc for that same reason. I really haven't found anything I can't model but maybe there's stuff I just haven't needed to. I do know on the 6th boards everytime someone said you couldn't model something with HERO , I had thought of a build for it. Now sometimes they aren't very cost efficient but I've always been able to make almost anything I needed pretty easily.

 

 

That just may mean it models anything I want to model fine though ( or anything the 6the boards naysayers came up with )

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Internal consistency is hard to achieve, but hopefully 6e will alleviate that. The reason you can not add ranged to HA is the way it treats advantages and the fact that it would then almost certainly be cheaper to buy a ranged HA than an EB. At present blunt objects have to be built as multipowers if they are throwable, or straight EBs that you can use at zero range, purchasing enough to cover base damage + STR (which makes them more difficult to build a 'general' version of).

 

Hopefully with figured characteristics going, HA and its oddness can go too.

 

Hrm... I wonder what the value of "STR Adds When Used Hand To Hand"?

 

Energy Blast; STR Adds To Damage When Used Hand To Hand (+1/2)

 

sound about right?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Hero System cannot accurately model animals. That's right, normal animals in Hero System are broken. Many of them are either too weak, or in some cases, too powerful, for what they should be able to do.

 

In fact, I don't know many people who disagree with me on this position.

 

 

Put me down as one who disagrees. I may disagree with individual builds but I think it can do a fine job.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Spears aren't Hand To Hand Attacks though.

 

+1d6 Hand Attack; Hand Attack Only (-1/2); Ranged (+1/2)

-Mutually Exclusive Modifiers.

 

+1 Speed; Does Not Increase Speed

-Mutually Exclusive Concepts.

 

It's actually closer to saying:

+1D6 Hand Killing Attack; Does Not Cause Damage.

 

So... what's it do then?

It looked like bad logic after staying up all night.

 

Adds a phase somewhere.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

You can't add a Phase without increasing Speed. Basic principle of the Speed Chart.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Hrm... I wonder what the value of "STR Adds When Used Hand To Hand"?

 

Energy Blast; STR Adds To Damage When Used Hand To Hand (+1/2)

 

sound about right?

 

Sounds exactly right - in fact it doesn't necessarily need to just be 'when used HtH - that is the effective cost for HKA 'STR adds damage'. The only complication is that adding STR to an advantaged power requires you to pro-rate the STR, so you'd have to use 15 STR to acheive +2d6 damage.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

...Extra-Dimensional Movement (Time-Space)? Change Environment (Stop Time)?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Sounds exactly right - in fact it doesn't necessarily need to just be 'when used HtH - that is the effective cost for HKA 'STR adds damage'. The only complication is that adding STR to an advantaged power requires you to pro-rate the STR' date=' so you'd have to use 15 STR to acheive +2d6 damage.[/quote']

 

Well, the idea is that you can't add STR when you 'throw' the object (use the Ranged portion) only when you bash someone (use the Hand To Hand portion). You get one or the other.

 

And that touches on another issue I have with Advantages and Adding Damage. If the Advantage isn't Directly Related To Doing Damage it shoudn't count as part of the prorating.

 

Which leads us into the real underlying problem:

Hand Killing Attack; Ranged - you should be able to add Damage Classes at 5 STR / +1 DC; the Ranged portion shouldn't affect Hand Damage at all.

 

Reversing the model though:

Energy Blast; Str Adds To Damage - you should be able to add DCs at 5 STR / +1 DC, but the "Str Adds" part is more directly related to damage and is harder to argue that it shouldn't add.

 

 

And I find it an issue that KAs can start with HKA and add Ranged but Normal Damage has to start Ranged and add Hand Damage. Either model should be able to go either way. Likely... this is way off topic.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

...Extra-Dimensional Movement (Time-Space)? Change Environment (Stop Time)?

 

 

Er...no.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

...Extra-Dimensional Movement (Time-Space)? Change Environment (Stop Time)?

 

EDM: Time Zone is a build from The Ultimate Speedster. There's a few additional Mechanics tagged in - and it's playable.

 

Looking at Reason From Effect, what does Stopping Time do? Well, it stops everything. Mechanically, stopping/pausing everything is one of two things: Entangle and Suppress. And LOTS OF IT. Steve built a Time Stop power in Digital Hero that's some 7.5 Million Real Points....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Sorry that my spelling out of 'HA' caused such confusion.

 

re: Trigger & Speed

 

Adding a Naked Trigger Advantage to the Speed Characteristic might work, but only if you make the base cost of the 'Naked' Advantage the character's Total Speed (example: 6 SPD = 60 Active). Then, depending on the extent of the Trigger itself, the active cost of the final ability can be up to 60 points as well.

 

Anyway, the more commonly accepted method of using Trigger is to base it on the specific power/action that allows to occur. A 'Naked Trigger Advantage' that could apply to any one of a character's powers seems awfully powerful. I might require the use of an additional Advantage akin to the one required for Adjustment Powers that can affect multiple abilities. This can get really exspensive fast.

 

As already pointed out by others, the 'Speed Zone' (which is just a speedster specifc use of Extra Dimensional Movement or EDM) is way to get 'extra actions' without actually increasing a character's SPD. As it turns out, the near minimum amount necessary to make it useful will also have an active cost of ~60 points.

You can see an example of this on my namesake character in my sig below:

 

2) Hyper-Time (Millispeed Level = 1 & 1/2 Phases): Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension, Any Location corresponding to current physical location), Quick Entrance (using Speed Zone Extra-Dimensional Movement only takes a Half Phase Action; +1/4) (27 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Requires A Danger Sense Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4) plus Perceive into a single other dimension (see into normal speed world from the Speed Zone) with Normal Sight (5 Active Points); Linked (Enter The Speed Zone (1&1/2 Phases); -1/2), Requires A Danger Sense Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4) plus Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) for up to 40 Active Points of Strength (20 Active Points); Linked (Enter The Speed Zone (1&1/2 Phases); -1/2), Requires A Danger Sense Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4) plus Flight 4"; Linked (Enter The Speed Zone (1&1/2 Phases); -1/2), Requires A Danger Sense Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4)

Notes: Must make Danger Sense roll to use. Can enter the "Millispeed" level of the Speed Zone for 1 & 1/2 Phases. Still gets a 1/2 phase action of his normal phase once done in Speed Zone. Costs a minimum of 18 END before counting any STR or Movement used.

 

Note that this was built as a multipower slot.

The Danger Sense ability is another slot in the multipower.

The Hyper-Time (Speed Zone) can only be used if:

A) The Danger Sense slot is active and goes off

&

the character has not committed the other half of the 120 point multipower reserve to an attack action ability beforehand.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

ha! I missed that too.

 

And I hate it. You should be able to make a perfectly throwable blunt object.

 

This is a problem with the HA mechanic being based on Energy Blast, rather than STR. If HA were +X STR, only to add damage (-1/2), we could allow Ranged to be added to this with the usual HA rules, permitting STR to add up to the total value of the HA.

 

Of course, we then get another example of STR's Figured getting in the way of equitable point costing, but those are going away in 6e, aren't they?

 

Hrm... I wonder what the value of "STR Adds When Used Hand To Hand"?

 

Energy Blast; STR Adds To Damage When Used Hand To Hand (+1/2)

 

sound about right?

 

Actually, I have to say "no". Let's say that Rock is a 6d6 HA or EB. We could build:

 

30 Multipower

3u 6d6 EB, Throw the Rock

2u 6d6 EB, Smack with Rock, Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

That's 35, not even +1/4. And I didn't ad Range Based on STR.

[jtelson]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

EDM: Time Zone is a build from The Ultimate Speedster. There's a few additional Mechanics tagged in - and it's playable.

 

Looking at Reason From Effect, what does Stopping Time do? Well, it stops everything. Mechanically, stopping/pausing everything is one of two things: Entangle and Suppress. And LOTS OF IT. Steve built a Time Stop power in Digital Hero that's some 7.5 Million Real Points....

 

Well 'I stop Everything' is absolutely one way to look at the effect of time stop, another is 'I can Move things, including myself, and cause damage to things and perform tasks that would normally take time without interference or a significant expenditure of time'. So if your GM is edgy about optional rules or just the Speed Zone in general you can still hit the Effect (or very close to it) on a budget.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

This is a problem with the HA mechanic being based on Energy Blast' date=' rather than STR. If HA were +X STR, only to add damage (-1/2), we could allow Ranged to be added to this with the usual HA rules, permitting STR to add up to the total value of the HA.[/quote']

 

Actually - the Hand Attack Power says it's a limited form of Strength in the write up. It's not based on EB - it's based on STR.

 

 

5 Pt MP

1u) Energy Blast

1u) Hand Attack; HtH Only

7 Points

 

that's a +1/2 Advantage.

Which illustrates the danger and problem of using the Multipower Pool as a baseline for what something "should" cost. It starts to vary widely based on what level you set it to.

[jtelson]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Sounds like a job for EDM....

 

It really does doesn't it? I was thinking of some complex structure of Extra Limbs, 0-End Str for Grabs and then some acid attack.

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

The old Marvel Superheroes game had a power called Energy Control which allowed the gathering up, manipulating, and redirecting of a given form of energy.

 

HERO does that pretty well as sfx for other powers, but I feel it does a poor job with simply letting you pile up and shape energy the way you might snow.