How much should strength cost?

[poptoad]

Those of us who have been playing this game since the 80's have always known that strength was overpowered for its point cost. Not only is it one of the most versatile attack powers, it also comes with a butt load of figured characteristics. So how much should it cost?

 

Right now, for 10 points of Strength, you get this:

 

6: +2d6 Hand-to-hand Attack

2: +2 PD

4: +2 REC

5: +5 STUN

 

Thus, for every 10 points you're getting 17 points of effect, and that's before you count in the lifting and the throwing and the grabbing and the pushing that so often come in handy.

 

By contrast, all you get with 10 points of EB is 2d6 attack at range, which seems like it should cost about...10 points. For 10 points of CON you get this:

 

1: +1 ED

2: +1 REC

2.5: +2.5 STUN

5: +10 END

 

For 10 points you're getting about 10.5 points of effect, plus resistance to stunning and improved CON rolls and etc. Of course, resistance to stunning has a natural cap because it becomes irrelevant once you get enough CON that you're no longer worried about being stunned. This happens at different times in different campaigns, but it always happens by the time your CON is greater than your STUN. There's also a natural cap on the amount of END that's useful, and this counts for almost half figured characteristic benefit from CON. None of the STR benefits have this natural cap...the more the merrier!

 

In other words, CON seems priced about right, while STR still seems out of whack.

 

What about telekinesis? To compare telekinesis to STR we need to find a convenient breakpoint. Let's try 15 points. 15 points of STR gives:

 

9: +3d6 HA

3: +3 PD

6: +3 REC

7.5: +7.5 STUN

 

15 points of telekinesis gives:

 

+2d6 ranged attack, with +3/4 indirect

 

If you were going to buy an EB with these advantages, it would cost 17 points. Of course the telekinesis also acts like STR, so you can grab people and lift things and etc., so it's more versatile than the EB for fewer points. Telekinesis is looking maybe a little bit overpowered, but nothing crazy. Afterall, who buys +3/4 indirect for their EB?

 

On the other hand, with 15 STR you're getting 25.5 points of goodies, and still plus all those nice lifts and grabs. Doesn't that seem wildly overpowered? Even compared to telekinesis, you're still 8.5 points to the good (since you're getting 17 points of benefit from 15 points of telekinesis, plus lifts and grabs.)

 

Given this, would a 50% increase in the cost of STR be reasonable? If STR cost 1.5 points per, then buying 10 points of STR would cost 15 points, and you'd get those nice bonuses at the top of the page: +HA, +PD, +REC, +STUN giving 17 points of effect. That's a lot more in line! You're still getting a small bonus, but you could think of that as a "package bonus."

 

Let's compare a simple Brick to a simple Energy Blaster if STR costs 1.5 per. Suppose both characters want 12d6 attacks. The Brick will buy 50 STR and get:

 

+10d6 HA (for 12 total)

+10 PD

+10 REC

+25 STUN

 

...and this will cost 75 points, giving 85 points of benefit. Still a nice bonus.

 

The Energy blaster will spend 60 points to get his 12d6 EB, and have 15 points left over to beef up his stats. Sure, his attack is ranged, but the brick has 55 points of extra figured characteristics with those dollops of PD, REC, and STUN.

 

Come to think of it, making STR cost 1.5 may not be enough....

[secretID]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

I highly recommend:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47440&highlight=interesting

 

Note that if you plan on buying 6e, you won't have to worry about this for long - no more figured characteristics.

[poptoad]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Very cool link. Thanks.

 

I took a break in playing from about '87 to '07, and was surprised how much work had gone into refining the game system, and how little into balancing it. I know it's a role-playing game, not a war game, but still you'd think some progress would have been made toward obvious imbalances. Instead there was all this talk about caps for certain campaigns or certain kinds of characters, which mystified me at first. If 80 STR 33 DEX bricks are overpowered, then the obvious answer seemed to be to make STR and DEX cost more, not to say "60 point cap on STR for this campaign," or "Bricks wouldn't have a 33 Dex. Buy it down."

 

Ah, well. There's always another edition on the horizon.

[JmOz]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

FLAME ON

 

Said it before, will say it again, the point of figured characteristics has always been a way of balancing it against frameworks

 

EC Blaster Boy buys three powers (I know, not realistic)

 

60 30" Flight

60 20/20 FF 0 End

60 12d6 EB

-------------------

180

Decides to put it in a EC

 

30 Energy EC

30 30" Flight

30 20/20 FF 0 End

30 12d6 EB

-----------------

120 points

 

saving 60 points

 

The basic tank does not get the same benefit, so figured characterisics are their to balance the character out. At least in my games characteristics based characters have never outshined Framework based characters.

[secretID]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Said it before' date=' will say it again, the point of figured characteristics has always been a way of balancing it against frameworks.[/quote']

That doesn't explain why they don't come close to balancing with each other. E.g., for an HTH fighter, STR is almost twice the value of CON.

[Alibear]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

FLAME ON

 

Said it before, will say it again, the point of figured characteristics has always been a way of balancing it against frameworks

.

 

If that was the case Strength wouldn't be allowed in frameworks but are.

 

Anyway it looks like SIX is gonna make this a moot discussion.

[secretID]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

If that was the case Strength wouldn't be allowed in frameworks but are.

I think he's accounting for the fact that you have to take No Figured in that case.

[lemming]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Geez, it's only out of balance if you let it be. There has always been ways of tweaking systems in ways to make out of balance characters.

[Alibear]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

I think he's accounting for the fact that you have to take No Figured in that case.

 

Have to? Where does it state that?

[ajackson]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Have to? Where does it state that?

Stats in a multipower automatically have no figured, and stats aren't normally permitted in ECs or VPPs.

[secretID]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Have to? Where does it state that?

Unrevised 5th, p.92 (the description of the Characteristics power):

"Characteristics bought as a slot in a Multipower never add to Figured Characteristics. Characters can only buy Characteristics within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM; they don't add to Figured Characteristics."

[jtelson]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Unrevised 5th, p.92 (the description of the Characteristics power):

"Characteristics bought as a slot in a Multipower never add to Figured Characteristics. Characters can only buy Characteristics within other Power Frameworks with special permission from the GM; they don't add to Figured Characteristics."

 

Same in Revised page 139 but replace ";they don't..." with ";the same rules apply."

 

Of course, you get to (well must) take the (-1/2) limitation also per page 139.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

How much should STR cost?

 

Well... how much ya got?

[jtelson]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Those of us who have been playing this game since the 80's have always known that strength was overpowered for its point cost. Not only is it one of the most versatile attack powers' date=' it also comes with a butt load of figured characteristics. So how much should it cost?[/quote']

 

The issue with this is that Primary Characteristics are for the most part favorably costed. So the real question is, is Strength more favorably costed than other Primary Characteristics?

 

You landed at around 1.5 for STR but look at INT 5 points of INT gets you +1 with all Intellect Skills, +1 Perception, and +1 with Int Rolls. Purchasing that straight costs more than 10 points

+1 Skill Level Intellect Skills (5 points)

+1 Skill Level w/ Intellect Skills (2 points)

+1 w/ Perception (3 points)

+1 w/ Int Rolls (2 points)

 

The system currently favors Characteristics in general, STR is a beneficiary of that.

[poptoad]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

FLAME ON

 

Said it before, will say it again, the point of figured characteristics has always been a way of balancing it against frameworks

 

...

 

saving 60 points

 

The basic tank does not get the same benefit, so figured characterisics are their to balance the character out. At least in my games characteristics based characters have never outshined Framework based characters.

 

Saving 60 points, but also making yourself 6 times more vulnerable to stuns, drains, transfers, etc.

 

Besides, what's to stop a tank from taking an EC? What's to stop an EB from taking a 60 STR? Flying energy-blasting bricks are a staple of the genre.

 

Your method of "balancing" requires making very strict character classes.

[poptoad]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

The issue with this is that Primary Characteristics are for the most part favorably costed. So the real question is, is Strength more favorably costed than other Primary Characteristics?

 

You landed at around 1.5 for STR but look at INT 5 points of INT gets you +1 with all Intellect Skills, +1 Perception, and +1 with Int Rolls. Purchasing that straight costs more than 10 points

+1 Skill Level Intellect Skills (5 points)

+1 Skill Level w/ Intellect Skills (2 points)

+1 w/ Perception (3 points)

+1 w/ Int Rolls (2 points)

 

The system currently favors Characteristics in general, STR is a beneficiary of that.

 

The rules specifically state that 5-point levels with INT apply to all int-based skills and rolls, including PER rolls, so your calculations are somewhat off. Int has a one-to-one ratio with what you get versus buying it as a skill. It still has some advantages, e.g., you're better against INT drains, but those are small.

 

I disagree with your premise -- INT and CON are two examples of characteristics that seemed priced just about right. STR, DEX, and SPD seem like the ones that are really under priced, and I was just starting with STR.

[jtelson]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

The rules specifically state that 5-point levels with INT apply to all int-based skills and rolls' date=' including PER rolls, so your calculations are somewhat off. Int has a one-to-one ratio with what you get versus buying it as a skill. It still has some advantages, e.g., you're better against INT drains, but those are small.[/quote']

 

They do? I'm not finding that under INT (pg 37) or under Skill levels (pg 70).

[CourtFool]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Oops. Sorry. I was looking for the Fighters are unfun thread.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Strength should cost 1 point per point. I've never observed it to be a problem.

 

And no, there's nothing wrong with campaign maxima. HERO's flexibility makes it the most breakable game on the market. There's no way to balance it other than the GM's say-so.

[secretID]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

By my calculations (based mostly off of that thread I linked), the best deals in primary characteristics are:

STR for a HTH-er, by far - almost 2-to-1

DEX for "normal" combatants - about 1.7-to-1

INT for a character with significant INT skills - about 1.6

EGO for mentalists - about 1.6

STR for non-HTH-ers - about 1.1

CON - about 1.1

[sbarron]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Besides, what's to stop a tank from taking an EC? What's to stop an EB from taking a 60 STR? Flying energy-blasting bricks are a staple of the genre.

 

Your method of "balancing" requires making very strict character classes.

You have to look at the context under which the rules were put into place. When they were first created, ECs were basically intended to encourage players to create characters with unified special effects, like Iceman or the Human Torch. But today, we have a much more developed sense for character creation than we did back in the 80s. As a result, we're able to come up with reasons to incorporate these power frameworks into almost every build.

 

But there are still legacy problems because STR is cheap, ECs and MPs make certain builds cheap, and not all characters can equally take advantage of those point savings. As you say, there is nothing to stop a EB from buying a 60 STR. Nothing except that it might not be appropriate for the character concept.

 

While flying energy-blasting bricks might be a staple in the genre, flying EBs that do not have 60 STR are too. Generally, between characters of equal ability, one build should not be more "cost effective" than the other. But one is much more cost effective than the other, simply because the game provides point breaks for characters that utilize power frameworks and high STR. I don't think that should be the case, and it looks like some of this will be addressed in the 6th Ed.

 

Lastly, I think the drawbacks on ECs and MPs are not nearly enough to make up for the point savings. As evidence, look at how many players choose to use these frameworks for their characters vs. those that don't. Drain is just not a common enough or powerful enough power to discourage a player from saving 60 pts for the same basic build. Not even close.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

The mark of a Characteristic priced correctly is what happens when you cost it differently. My experience has been that at 2 points per point of Str, Bricks tend to disappear. In heroic games people start buying Str with limitations like 'only to meet Str min of firearms'. Ambidexterity is an example of a Talent that's been over-priced, back when it was 3 points usually someone in a group would get it, I've never seen anyone get it since the price was upped to 9 points--they get Two-Weapon Fighting instead.

[sbarron]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

The mark of a Characteristic priced correctly is what happens when you cost it differently. My experience has been that at 2 points per point of Str' date=' Bricks tend to disappear. In heroic games people start buying Str with limitations like 'only to meet Str min of firearms'. Ambidexterity is an example of a Talent that's been over-priced, back when it was 3 points usually someone in a group would get it, I've never seen anyone get it since the price was upped to 9 points--they get Two-Weapon Fighting instead.[/quote']I agree that is a good measure, but I had different results for STR. In supers, everyone bought their STR up to at least 35 until we switched to 2 points per point. Then only the various forms of bricks bothered to buy it up past 30, and only true bricks got past 50. That fits my idea of the genre better.

 

In heroic games, STR at 2-for-1 still ended up with all characters have at least a 13. It's just too good a deal to pass up.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

I think having a break point is a good way to address the issue if it is one you see in your games. Best of both worlds, baby!

[poptoad]

Re: How much should strength cost?

 

Lastly' date=' I think the drawbacks on ECs and MPs are not nearly enough to make up for the point savings. As evidence, look at how many players choose to use these frameworks for their characters vs. those that don't. Drain is just not a common enough or powerful enough power to discourage a player from saving 60 pts for the same basic build. Not even close.[/quote']

 

Yes, I think that's right. The single biggest disadvantage to putting something in an EC is . . . that you can't put it in an MP (which chiefly means much less flexibility, particularly if your attack power is in the EC.)

 

2 points for STR seems like too much, but 1.5 points per...perfect!