Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

[Susano]

I have an idea.., Let me see if I can explain it.

 

In many settings it's perfectly fine if the hero wades through masses of nameless minions in an effort to get to his objective. Conan does it, Aragorn did it in the LOTR movies, Jet Li and Bruce Lee do it, Chow Yun-Fat does this, even Clint Eastwood does it (in some films). The question is, how do I model this?

 

Here's an idea I had:

 

Give Mooks a BODY score. That's all they have. Exceed this BODY in an attack, they go down and stay down. Now, let's add some complexities.

 

For starters, a Mook's BODY shouldn't be 10, or even 8, that puts them too close to the heroes. My suggestion is to half their regular BODY. So if you want weak mooks you give them (8/2 = 4) BODY. Slightly tougher is (10/2 = 5) BODY, and so on. Also, don't be afraid to give them DEF. So your Mooks might have 4 BODY, 3 PD and no Armor. So any Normal Attack that does 8 BODY takes then down. Any Killing Attack that does 5 BODY does the same. Or, in a fantasy game, they have 4 BODY, 3 PD and 4 DEF armor. The heroes need to do 12 BODY to take them out with a Normal Attack and 9 BODY with a Killing Attack.

 

Now, what about Stunning? You might want to disregard that, in order to avoid bogging the game down. The same with accumulating damage. The Mooks stay up until a single attack does the magic number in BODY.

 

This rule works best for higher-powered FH, NH, and DC games (or even Champions games), where the PCs will have a lot of tricks and techniques to pump up the damage they do with their attacks. If the PC has sufficient Damage Classes, you might even want to allow him to use Standard Effect and declare any Mook he hits goes down. It also allows them to do flashy stunts and wide out hordes of enemies with a single attack (perfect of those NH or Tuala Morn games).

 

Now, it might seem to be a waste of time to do this, but remember, it still takes time, END, and Charges to do all of this Mook stomping, meaning a PC who starts tossing off all of his uber attacks might be in a spot of trouble when the Named NPCs with full character sheets show up.

 

You also can vary your Mooks. Have masses of goons with a total BODY score of 6, then 9, then 12, then Named NPCs with character sheets. In addition, Mooks do get to attack, and throw enough of them at the hero and he will probably end up in trouble, but it will be trouble he should be able to fight free of, just like in the comics, movies, and stories.

 

Opinions?

[Lucius]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Hm, maybe I should take a look at the rules for "swarms" I seem to recall seeing in the Bestiary or somewhere.

 

If the mooks are that inferior, give them a SPD 2, and an OCV based mostly on how MANY are still up, and perhaps damage based not on an individual weapon but, again, on how many of them are still fighting.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Studying a palindromedary's respiratory system

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

At that point, I'd just grab a rule from Fantasy Hero and designate targets as 'one-hit KO', 'two-hit KO' and the like and skip the numbers. Not unlike D&D's Minion rule which just gives them 1 Hit Point.

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

At that point' date=' I'd just grab a rule from Fantasy Hero and designate targets as 'one-hit KO', 'two-hit KO' and the like and skip the numbers. Not unlike D&D's Minion rule which just gives them 1 Hit Point.[/quote']

 

The difference here is that what you use has more of an effect. With the 1-hit, 2-hit little attacks are just as effective as big ones. With this concept, you need to decide what to use and how to use it.

 

OTOH, I've not play-tested this, but in seemed to be a good idea in concept. It also had a strong Feng Shui feel to it.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Why not siphon off points with Duplicate? Makes Mook Swarms and reduces the points available for each mook.

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Siphon off how?

[Lucius]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

The difference here is that what you use has more of an effect. With the 1-hit, 2-hit little attacks are just as effective as big ones. With this concept, you need to decide what to use and how to use it.

 

OTOH, I've not play-tested this, but in seemed to be a good idea in concept. It also had a strong Feng Shui feel to it.

 

Then don't let excess damage go to waste. By treating a "swarm" as a single unit, you can say that a 5 BOD stroke kills one, a 7 BOD stroke kills 2, a 9 BOD stroke kills 3 in one phase...if that seems excessive you can also say that some of the excess "casualties" are minions who fled rather than fight.

 

You can also look at using Mass Combat rules from Fantasy Hero

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Billions and billions of palindromedaries!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Suggestion: Mook Wading (very simple version)

 

1. Mook wading only applies when using your most effective attack*.

 

2. If your MOS on your roll to hit is 0 to 2 the mook is stunned.

 

3. If the MOS on your roll to hit is 3 or more the mook is out of it for the entire combat (whether dead or just unconscious rarely matters).

 

That should prevent PCs using 'tiny' attacks to take down mooks, but means you don't even have to roll for damage, yet can get a range of effect.

 

Obviously you can adjust the MOS figures to suit or even add more 'levels':

 

EG

 

ON MOS 0-1 mook panics and runs or surrenders if can not run

ON MOS 2-3 mook is stunned

ON MOS 4-5 mook is unconscious for rest of scene

ON MOS 6+ mook is dead.

 

 

*You could define this differently too: you could say that the attack has to have at least MookDEFx10 active points to be used for MookWading, or MookDEFx5, or MookBODYx3, or whatever suits you - that way some NPCs are mooks against certain attacks/characters and not against others.

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Err.. MOS?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Err.. MOS?

 

MOS = Margin Of Success: make the roll by 2, KO them Make the roll by less than 2, stun them.

 

Simple, quick, and if you set the qualifying criteria right (i.e. a decent attack) probably pretty accurate.

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

MOS = Margin Of Success: make the roll by 2, KO them Make the roll by less than 2, stun them.

 

Simple, quick, and if you set the qualifying criteria right (i.e. a decent attack) probably pretty accurate.

 

I see.

 

One thing I liked about my system is that it makes allowances for Haymakers, Pushes, and Spreading attacks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

I see.

 

One thing I liked about my system is that it makes allowances for Haymakers, Pushes, and Spreading attacks.

 

 

Just set a DC minimum for 'Mook Wading' for those particular mooks. You can achieve that with your base attack or with cunning maneouvres. The system has to be very quick and easy if it is going to be worth doing, and this avoids rolling damage, or changing the survivability of mooks in the build (having said which no one but heroes/villains have more than 5 Body in any game I run ).

 

In fact you could define a Mook Threshold (a number appropriate to the campaign but around the campaign average damage) and use Attack DC – Mook Threshold as a bonus (or penalty) to the roll. That means that skilled PCs are as good at taking out mooks as the hard hitters.

The idea you presented sounds like it would work fine though.

 

 

Example: campaign DC = 8 (so you set the mook threshold at 8, but it could be more or less)

Mook = 4 DCV

PC = 7 OCV and 7 DC

That means that you get a -1 penalty to your roll to hit (Mook threshold 8 - Attack DC of 7)

So if you roll 11 to 13 you stun the mook and if you roll 10 or less you KO the mook.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Siphon off how?

By, er, not being used to make the individual mooks tougher?

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

By' date=' er, not being used to make the individual mooks tougher?[/quote']

 

I don't think I follow what you're getting at.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

The points put into Duplicate don't go into STR, or DEX, or DCs or DEF...

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

I still don't understand what you're talking about. Using Duplication to make what? A swarm of foes?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Well, yeah. Duplication means the individual duplicates are weaker, but there's more of them.

It's like a natural 'Mook rule'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

The points put into Duplicate don't go into STR' date=' or DEX, or DCs or DEF...[/quote']

 

There's no need to "siphon off points". Mooks don't have to have 150, or 350, or whatever points to be siphoned off. They get as many points as they need to have the abilities possessed by the mooks. If that means they have 25 points of characteristics, skills and etc., and 50 points of disadvantages, then that's what they have.

[Utech]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

You could

• add "mooks" as a common circumstance in the Living in a Dangerous World chapter (5ER pp 444-446) as far as determining damage to our heroes
  

and

• add "mooks" as a class of objects on the Object Table in the Breaking Things chapter (5ER pp 447-449) as far as determining how much damage it takes to get through them.
  

 

In other words, treat mooks not as individuals who attack our heroes and must be dealt with individually, but as damaging obstacles.

 

Some heroes will be immune to the damage certain mooks can do. Some heroes will be able to use superior mobility to avoid mooks. Some heroes will have attacks that allow the removal of many mooks at once.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

There's no need to "siphon off points". Mooks don't have to have 150' date=' or 350, or whatever points to be siphoned off. They get as many points as they need to have the abilities possessed by the mooks. If that means they have 25 points of characteristics, skills and etc., and 50 points of disadvantages, then that's what they have.[/quote']

Yeah, but my mooks can be built entirely by the book.

[Kenn]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

I like Mike's Mook idea. I may try it.

[OddHat]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

A pretty good method.

 

I give mooks 8 BOD, 8 CON and 2 DEF. Once they're stunned, they stay down. This also leads to the "Steve!" moment in my games, where the horribly splatted mook's buddies lament their buddy's untimely death or disfigurement.

 

Remember Vampire Cop Ricky? One of my favorite moments in that has some comic relief mooks pretending to be knocked out rather than face the Vampire. Classic bit, and one I intend to steal regularly from here on out.

[Hierax]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Give no-name Mook Minions get Vulnerability Disadvantage/Complication of x2 BODY/Effect (and/or STUN) vs Attacks from Named Characters.

 

And/or give PCs and/or named/major NPCs Deadly Blow only vs. Minions.

 

These avoid the whole what happens when minions face off against minions that 4th ed. D&D faces.

[Susano]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

I like Mike's Mook idea. I may try it.

 

Let me know how it works out.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Michael's Mook-Mashing Concept

 

Give Mooks a BODY score. That's all they have. Exceed this BODY in an attack' date=' they go down and stay down. [/quote']

 

I'd like a bit more clarification of this proposal. When you say, "Exceed this BODY in an attack," do you mean in a single attack, e.g. one attack which does the mook's total starting BODY score past his defenses? Or any number of attacks which ultimately reduce the mook's BODY total to 0?

 

I bring this up because, for my most recent games, I've extrapolated from the rulebook recommendation that only PCs and significant NPCs can Push their STR or Powers, to declare that only such characters can continue to fight or function at negative BODY. For all other "normal" people, once they reach 0 BODY they die. For games where really high lethality is desired, I also sometimes apply the Critical Hits rule from p. 156 of The Ultimate Martial Artist, where if a character's roll to hit is less than half of what he needed to hit the target, he does maximum damage against that target.

 

Given the usual CV difference between mooks and PCs, I've found that factoring in called shots to Hit Locations, Critical Hits, and not allowing negative BODY lets my PCs wade through mooks most handily.

 

When dealing with larger groups of mooks, I've also sometimes applied the Mass Combat rules from Fantasy HERO, where slaughtering individual opponents is just the Special Effect of destroying the BODY of the opposing group unit. It seems to work well when appropriate descriptive language is added.