Magical Engineer Commandos

[Mostlyjoe]

It's a mind set. The PC self defense reflex taken to a weird extreme. One part Engineering geek, one part military ideology, all parts PC combat tweeking. And my local gamers all think like this to some degree. (Almost all of them.) I've tried to fight it before, but it's dug deep into the way I think these days.

 

These are the PC's who study a magic system and build characters that take advantage of the interesting ways it interacts with the world. They might start out as a Ranger, Adventurer, Researcher, Priest...but when it's all said in done they're equiped, cross trained, and deadly.

 

It starts out small with good ideas for the characters. Bags of holding, boots of speed, etc. Just logical items that would help the group on the go. But then they get curious and use the logic of the game world to 'invent' new tools and systems. Fantasy Flashlights, self-healing armor, alchemical med kits, etc. By the time it's done it's crazy, over the top stuff: floating self reloading flintlocks, portable housing that doubles as instant combat fortifications, foe seeking explosive packages, summonable auto-messengers.

 

And they teach each other useful skills. Specialization still happens, but they all have a 'default' level of skill and ability. A little knowledge skills points go a long way. And if everyone can learn some utility magic, the better. Standard Operation Procedure develop. Tactics rule the day and they Recon like crazy. Intel is their catch word. They ambush, steal, bribe, lockdown, hayduke, scramble communications. And all in the name of whatever NPC cause they support. I've had them radically alter the flow of games even when they wern't trying to 'break' the game. It's less about gaming the system and more about getting the most out of what characters can do. And they REALLY get into it.

 

I fight this style of play...but why fight it. What if I want to allow them to be The Fellowship of the Ring with the mentality of the A-Team. What sorts of fun things would you build into PC's to play up this form of militant magical powerhouse?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Actually, I'm guilty of this behavior as a player, but I've found myself to be the exception. However IME, most players are doing good just to remember their characters names from week to week, much less what they can actually do.

 

 

To repress the behavior, just lower the point level of the game to force more specialization, impose over-time limits on the spending of XP, increase the overhead costs for magic both in points and time expended, and so forth. If such behavior is so prevalent in your games you are probably facilitating it in some way, providing an environment in which it can proliferate.

 

To play into the curve, just apply the same the mindset to the NPC's. You'll probably end up with something more like a Cyberpunk or Mil game in tone and spirit with the trappings of fantasy.

[bubba smith]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

It's a mind set. The PC self defense reflex taken to a weird extreme. One part Engineering geek, one part military ideology, all parts PC combat tweeking. And my local gamers all think like this to some degree. (Almost all of them.) I've tried to fight it before, but it's dug deep into the way I think these days.

 

These are the PC's who study a magic system and build characters that take advantage of the interesting ways it interacts with the world. They might start out as a Ranger, Adventurer, Researcher, Priest...but when it's all said in done they're equiped, cross trained, and deadly.

 

It starts out small with good ideas for the characters. Bags of holding, boots of speed, etc. Just logical items that would help the group on the go. But then they get curious and use the logic of the game world to 'invent' new tools and systems. Fantasy Flashlights, self-healing armor, alchemical med kits, etc. By the time it's done it's crazy, over the top stuff: floating self reloading flintlocks, portable housing that doubles as instant combat fortifications, foe seeking explosive packages, summonable auto-messengers.

 

And they teach each other useful skills. Specialization still happens, but they all have a 'default' level of skill and ability. A little knowledge skills points go a long way. And if everyone can learn some utility magic, the better. Standard Operation Procedure develop. Tactics rule the day and they Recon like crazy. Intel is their catch word. They ambush, steal, bribe, lockdown, hayduke, scramble communications. And all in the name of whatever NPC cause they support. I've had them radically alter the flow of games even when they wern't trying to 'break' the game. It's less about gaming the system and more about getting the most out of what characters can do. And they REALLY get into it.

 

I fight this style of play...but why fight it. What if I want to allow them to be The Fellowship of the Ring with the mentality of the A-Team. What sorts of fun things would you build into PC's to play up this form of militant magical powerhouse?

congatulations mostlyjoe i think you just gave HERO games its newest character archtype.:thumbup:

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Eh, its just Tank Mages by another name. When everyone can fight and everyone can use magic and everyone can have skills, the classic AT divisions go out the window. Neither a good nor bad thing inherently, but if a particular style of play is desired it can run against the grain.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

By the tightest defention they arn't tank mages. They'll go lightly armed, armored, equiped if the mission calls for it. I used the term Commando for a reason. They operate like one. Imagine a Fantasy version of the A-team or a team of MacGuyvers. That's what it's like.

 

They stress mobility over raw power. The reason for the revolving self loading guns was because of the slow reload speed of flintlocks. So get 5 enchant them, toss, grab, fire, toss, grab, fire. Etc. Transport is one of their first priorites. Horses, flying carpet, airship. They zero in on transport options and nab it.

 

They also seem to champion causes. Each new bad buy becomes a mission objective. They'll use the local people, equipment, landscape to their advantage. But all of this is in character and gradual. Once they have the SOP defined they'll get to work.

 

In D&D they ALL chip in to equip everyone with the proper gear. Offensive, mobility, defensive, utility. (Handy Haversack, boots of leaping and striding, cloaks of flying, gloves of storing, rod of prestidigitation, etc.) And they're not afraid of scavenging parts from prior magic items or tools to make what they need. Crafting is one of their favorite skills. Could you call them Combat Gagetteers in a sense?

 

(As far as I understood Tank Mages, optimzing damage/defense was king. This more effeciency is king mentality.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

The underlying element is the same -> lack of specialization / shtick / niches. The group is a unit of largely interchangeable combat units. The rest of it is just a matter of degree or nuance.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

The underlying element is the same -> lack of specialization / shtick / niches. The group is a unit of largely interchangeable combat units. The rest of it is just a matter of degree or nuance.

 

I think it's less lack of specialization - if I read his OP correctly - than the team/military mindset. The current group I play in is like this. Everyone has a speciality (mine's recon/commando) but there's also overlap - so most of the fighter-types have some degree of healing or self-buffing, the two healers subspecialise in knowledge skills and archery support, respectively, the mage is our artillery support, but subspecialises in knowledge skills as well, and so on.

 

Essentially, the support team is (main role/minor role)

Research/Healing

Healing/Ranged Combat

Ranged Combat/Research

 

and the close combat team is

Fast assault/Infiltration

Heavy assault/Defense

Heavy assault/Defense

 

So everyone specialises, but there's some subbing, so that we can operate effectively as two teams if we have to, or continue to function if any one member goes down. The only thing we lack backup on is the infiltration role.

 

A good example: in a recent session, we came up against a well-organized team - as soon as the alarm was raised, their grunts (who were actually pretty tough) formed up in a defensive formation in front of their surviving spellcaster, who had planned on providing support, while their best fighter and a couple of big monsters go after our spellcasters. All in all, a pretty reasonable strategy ... which fell apart as soon as we showed up. The first thing that happens is my character goes over the heads of the grunts and is right on top of their spell caster before anyone else can react. He's too busy trying not to be dead to provide any sort of magical support. The other two fighters immediately close up to protect our spellcasters and all 4 of them wipe out the opponent's offensive. I could do the reckless offensive thing straight away without any discussion, because I knew the others know the drill - close up on and protect our spellcasters. In turn, they concentrate on wiping out the enemy's counter offensive, without worrying about me, because they know that I know the drill: once the enemy's spellcasters are down, I'm going to tackle the grunts - but also go all defensive, so the chance of the swarming grunts actually landing a finger on me are slim - and if I do get hurt, I have some healing capacity to keep me going. The goal is not to kill them all, just to tie them up. And finally, when the enemy's counter-offensive is broken, the grunts who are all trying to kill me will be nicely bunched up for massed magical fiery death - while I acrobat or teleport my way out of trouble.

 

Teamwork, or as they say, force multipliers. Not coincidentally, a lot of our magical gear isn't armour and weapons so much as the quartermaster stuff that was mentioned: handy haversacks, boots that increase movement, hat of disguise, vessels that provide magical food and drink, magical books or crystals to enhance our research capacity, spells to resist cold or heat. We can operate in practically any environment (not underwater or in outer space .... yet) and can move rapidly, so that when we fight, we can dish out maximum pain, as quickly as possible - and if we don't want to fight, we can move away just as quickly and then disappear.

 

We're nothing like a conventional fantasy group from any novel I've ever read - more like a Ranger Section.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Whatever tricks and tactics PCs come up with, there is absolutely nothing stiopping the other side from doing the same things, or even going one better. I can accept that these PCs are tough, but I am guessing they are not (as yet) the 'Top Guns' of their world. Meaning that there may be any number of other people (some of whom will be smarter, or more powerful, or simply better-funded) who may have arrived at similar conclusions.

 

History is full of clever ideas that were unknowingly arrived at by different people independantly of each other. No reason the same cannot happen here.

 

For that matter, if the PCs have attained any fame / notoriety, it seems reasonable that other people might take interest. Rival up-and-coming adventurer groups looking for the Secret Of Success, or that Evil Overlord in the next county over, who just KNOWS the PCs will head his way sooner or later - just a couple of examples of people who might take the time and effort to study the PCs' methods, and put them to use.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Can, does, and will happen Ian.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

If they gain a measure of fame for their successes, perhaps it would be fun to introduce them to their biggest fan, who wants to tag along and "be a part of the team," but has no combat capability whatsoever. And he always shows up at the worst possible time. Like during the ingress for a covert recon mission.

 

If the fan is the child of a powerful noble, it then becomes important that they not only cannot just kill him to get him out of their way, but they have to keep him from getting killed because of his own stupidity, lest they become hunted by the agents and military of said noble. Not to mention the bad press it could generate.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Knowing them? He'd get put through training. "You want to follow us, fine. Welcome to Boot Camp." One trained minion coming right up.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Whatever tricks and tactics PCs come up with, there is absolutely nothing stiopping the other side from doing the same things, or even going one better. I can accept that these PCs are tough, but I am guessing they are not (as yet) the 'Top Guns' of their world. Meaning that there may be any number of other people (some of whom will be smarter, or more powerful, or simply better-funded) who may have arrived at similar conclusions.

 

History is full of clever ideas that were unknowingly arrived at by different people independantly of each other. No reason the same cannot happen here.

 

Sure, you can't beat the GM - and it's pointless to even try The mindset behind Magical Engineer Commandos is to do the mostest with the leastest, to be quick on your feet, to swing more than your CR should be able to - and to defeat the evil GM's minions, but do so in a way to leave her goggling and saying "How did you just ..."

 

What puzzles me is that our D20 group (that which I just described) is evolving into a lean, mean fightin' machine. The Hero group, in contrast - which is over half of the same people - nearly got munched to death by a bunch of 25 point bijoux monsterettes a few sessions back and last night got scattered and somewhat beaten up by 2 125 point harpies ... They panic, have no clear roles, tend to scatter all over the map, don't work well together - and have been playing together longer. Clearly, mindset is everything!

 

cheers, Mark

[Mr. R]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Sure, you can't beat the GM - and it's pointless to even try The mindset behind Magical Engineer Commandos is to do the mostest with the leastest, to be quick on your feet, to swing more than your CR should be able to - and to defeat the evil GM's minions, but do so in a way to leave her goggling and saying "How did you just ..."

 

What puzzles me is that our D20 group (that which I just described) is evolving into a lean, mean fightin' machine. The Hero group, in contrast - which is over half of the same people - nearly got munched to death by a bunch of 25 point bijoux monsterettes a few sessions back and last night got scattered and somewhat beaten up by 2 125 point harpies ... They panic, have no clear roles, tend to scatter all over the map, don't work well together - and have been playing together longer. Clearly, mindset is everything!

 

cheers, Mark

 

Yeah but your describing two systems that have different approaches to PCs. In d20 there are classes, ie you know what you can do and plan accordingly. You know your strengths and try to cover your weaknesses.

 

In Hero this is more wide open so you are what you think you are. This can result in warriors that are very cautious,casue they don't know where their weakness is.

 

Like you said, mindset is everything.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Mr. R, It's not exclusive to D&D. I've played GURPS and HERO where the MEC effect happened. It's the mentality of the players and how they come into the world.

 

My local players do this in about any game we do. To a point. We ran a Pulp Hero game and we were really disfunctional, but that's because we built ourselves that way.

 

In old Champions parlance, the PC's are all Pro's from Dover so to speak.

[Mr. R]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Ahh. OK, that explains it better.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Mr. R' date=' It's not exclusive to D&D. I've played GURPS and HERO where the MEC effect happened. It's the mentality of the players and how they come into the world.[/quote']

 

Right. I've run Hero system games where the players did this - and also games (like with the current group) where they did not. Our first Runequest group was like this - our second one was most emphatically not (more like a soap opera with a heavy fatality rate)

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

I know that almost every character I build has Stealth and Concealment.

 

I don't care who you are, there will be times you want to go unnoticed, and times you need to find something.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

First Palindromedary Scouts

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

For my characters, it is usually Martial Arts / Unarmed Combat.

 

The way I figure it, regardless of the game and my Character's specialty / class, there will always be times when he is unarmed AND times when he needs to Dodge Really Really Well.

 

Usually, both at the same time.

[Mr. R]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Mine is First Aid/Paramedic.

 

I don't know how many times in a game I wanted to stop bleeding and was asked if I had any of the above. Nope, then he bleeds and bleeds and... Grrr.

[Lucius]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

I used to build every character with Danger Sense and some form of Paramedic or Healing, depending on the game and the system. I think I still tend to favor those kinds of abilities.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[Zeropoint]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

I pretty much NEVER make a character without Paramedics. It's the skill with the highest potential to be a literal lifesaver.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

I pretty much NEVER make a character without Paramedics. It's the skill with the highest potential to be a literal lifesaver.

 

I have made characters without it, but taking background into consideration, it's one of those skills which I at least always consider - like Stealth.

 

cheers, Mark

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Many of my characters have Breakfall, especially in games with Knockdown or Knockback.

[Mostlyjoe]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

In almost every session we have 2+ players with VPP/multipower Batman style utility belts. Be it a Mages cantrips, pulp based adventures kit, or actual utlity belt (Champsions on up to SpaceHero) And dont' get me started on the number of playes who get Flying (Levitation) modded as a grapling launcher/zip line combo.

[5lippers]

Re: Magical Engineer Commandos

 

Hi Mostlyjoe,

I’d be tempted to just run with it: it sounds like the creativity of your players stems from a love of creative problem solving rather than power gaming! In some ways, it’s great that you’ve got a group of players who show such determined teamwork!

I’d agree with the suggestion that others have made: play them at their own game and foster a rivalry with an NPC team of Magical Engineer Commandos who are determined to prove that they are the most innovative, strategic geniuses that your campaign world has ever seen! You could set up some fun ‘race-for-the-prize’ type scenarios or have the rivals turn up at unhelpful times.

Alternatively, you could just increase the number of problems that can’t be solved with a gadget. Probably best not to over do this though as no one likes riddle-grind.

My final suggestion: perhaps you could house rule that, if a character dies, the player in question has to come up with a fresh character concept (i.e. one that doesn’t mirror their last character or another character on the team)?

S.